Melting point of polymer framed guns?

[mrussel]

Plastic is not metal nor reacts like metal.
Flame cutting is always addressed by adding steel to the area . My S&W Ti has a steel shield to prevent flame cutting . I dare say plastic would not fare well here. I have seen plastic used systems to remove hot flue gas . The saw it recalled. Most small frame S&W revolvers will get out of time if fed a large amount of high pressure ammo or are subjected to abuse .
Time will tell fersure !

 Yes,presumably plastic is an inapropriate material for that. Then again,perhaps some high temperature plastic or a composite part COULD be designed for such an application. I would expect that such a design would have a part that was disposable in that location to protect the frame. Then again,maybe a plastic frame revolver if you were crazy enough to make one might look alot like the nagant,where you get 100% gas sealing beteween the cartridge and the barrel.  I suspect however that its just not a suitable revolver material.

[SHOOTALL]

or a Ruger has done with the LCR 

[no guns here]

short term... not an issue... you aren't going to melt one unless you are stupid or unless you TRY to melt it.  Long term degradation... who knows?  You'd think Glock (and others) have the polymer pretty much perfected now.  Of course you can do the same type of damage to a metal framed firearm if you are stupid, unlucky or if you try hard enough.


NGH

[SHOOTALL]

so you feel age will impair a steel of Ti. frame gun ?

[no guns here]

Notice I said you "can do the same damage to a metal framed firearm if you are stupid, unlucky or if you try hard enough".  Time alone... no not really unless you are stupid enough to let it rust badly.  Unlucky???  A metal framed gun can be damaged beyond safe useability in a fire.  If you shoot it ENOUGH with heavy loads, frames can crack, slides can crack, timing goes out, cranes get bent through slamming them shut, etc.  Just because it is steel or titanium doesn't mean that it is impervious to damage, misuse or abuse.


NGH

[SHOOTALL]

we were not talking misuse but normal wear. not fires just age. I have seen a glock come apart from a double load we think . it survived a steel gum may have also .

[Range Rider]

Polymers will separate in time.  They all do.  Maybe this will be the answer to gun control in the future. They may call it  work hardening or briddle but the marriage of compounds in the polymers are failing.  Americans will buy anything, yes even plastic pistols.

[mrussel]

Polymers will separate in time.  They all do.  Maybe this will be the answer to gun control in the future. They may call it  work hardening or briddle but the marriage of compounds in the polymers are failing.  Americans will buy anything, yes even plastic pistols.

 My concern is that alot of polymers (and other materials for that matter) have a certain lifespan. Even a steel gun has to that an extent. If you keep the air off it,it wont rust and it will last "forever" but really,how many 100 year old guns dont have some degradation from rust. In fact, MOST 100+ year old guns are no longer in service. They are just worn out and used up. Some have been maintained properly or refurbished and ARE in service. In the long run,if a Glock lasts 30 or 50 years,thats really good enough for most uses. Police wont still be using those Glocks in 50 years. Some people who buy them may also not care,knowing that they will replace it far before that 50 years.If you just want it for defense,and its one of the most reliable guns you can get,and will stay that way for 30 years,and its cheap,then you may think that's fine. There may well be something better in 20 years anyway.

On the other hand,if your an enthusiast,who likes guns for their own sake and its more than just a tool,then you might not like a lifespan like that. I expect all my guns to last a very long time. I have guns made nearly 100 years ago that are in excellent shape and I imagine that my great great grandchildren may well have them when they are 200 years old. (Thats right,let Bubba keep chopping up those 91/30s becuase it just makes mine more collectible) I would tend to stay away from a gun with a lifespan unless it offered me something that no others did. As it sits though,I dont think a guy with a Glock is going to have any appreciable advantage over me with my 1911 in a gun fight. (unless of course hes a expert gun fighter,then Im just hosed,but I probably would be if he had a 25acp Lorcen)

[Range Rider]

I don't know where you study gun life and history.  There are tons of guns that were made between 1900 and 1911 that are still very much in use.  To say a steel gun won't last 100 years is foolish at best.  This thing of makeing guns more cheaply is nothing new.  I am sure the folks that bought all those Pot Metal pistols around the turn of the 20th century said the same thing.  Now, if you look at the old Iver Johnsons, H&Rs Secret Service Specials Etc. not many of them lasted the 100 years.  They were the new thing of their day.  They were made from cheap castings and sold like crazy to a not real gun wise public of that day.  Many of them were imported like the Plastic Poppers of today.

[teddy12b]

I think this is getting off track.  My goal isn't to have every gun I own last 100 years, as I'm planning on being dead then.  I have plenty of other guns that my great grandkids can take out hunting or remember me by.  What I'm looking for in a new gun is high capacity, accuracy and reliability.  It's pretty likely that I'll sell or trade the gun within the next 20 years anyway.  I don't look at all of my gun purchases as a marriage, some are more like a lease or rental.

I'd still like to buy a glock and a springfield loaded with the same amount of enthusiasm.  Steel or plastic, either will be just fine.  I don't think one has to loose for another to win.  1911's and Glocks are both outstanding.

[mrussel]

I don't know where you study gun life and history.  There are tons of guns that were made between 1900 and 1911 that are still very much in use.  To say a steel gun won't last 100 years is foolish at best.  This thing of makeing guns more cheaply is nothing new.  I am sure the folks that bought all those Pot Metal pistols around the turn of the 20th century said the same thing.  Now, if you look at the old Iver Johnsons, H&Rs Secret Service Specials Etc. not many of them lasted the 100 years.  They were the new thing of their day.  They were made from cheap castings and sold like crazy to a not real gun wise public of that day.  Many of them were imported like the Plastic Poppers of today.

 You misunderstand me. I am well aware that there are many guns made between 1900 and 1911 that are in use today. I have some in fact. There are also many more that were used constantly (and Im not talking ones that sat in an arsenal for 60 or 80 years before being surplussed out) that are no longer serviceable. If the intent is that the gun will be "used up" then plastic frames may not mean much. If its expected that it can be stored like my m95 was,perhaps since the 40s,perhaps even longer,then degradation may be an issue.

 I stand by my statement that most of the guns ever made not only are no longer in service and most of them no longer exist as guns. (Metal often gets recycled however so part of your car may well be old guns,as well as old railroad tracks etc) There ARE of course many that DID survive,still there are many more that did NOT. 6 million M1 Garands were built. 2 million 1911s were built, 6.25 million M1 carbines were built and 6 or 7 hundred thousand Springfield 1861s were built. There are nowhere near those numbers left. A WWI issued 1911 in good condition would not be worth much money if there were a half a million just like it floating around on the open market.

[Range Rider]

Again you need to study American firearm history.  The fact that the Garands and 1911 are not for sale in the US has nothing to do with wear.  These weapons were shipped to other countries.  I recall during the war in the late 1960s we were chopping the stocks on tons of Garands.  The guns were cut down and a .308 chamber spacer was Loctited into the chambers. We shipped 1,000s of these rifles to SE Asia. At the same time hand guns and 1903 Spflds. were being cut up for scrap.  This was done at the Crane Naval Weapons Center near Bedford, Indiana.

[mrussel]

Again you need to study American firearm history.  The fact that the Garands and 1911 are not for sale in the US has nothing to do with wear.  These weapons were shipped to other countries.  I recall during the war in the late 1960s we were chopping the stocks on tons of Garands.  The guns were cut down and a .308 chamber spacer was Loctited into the chambers. We shipped 1,000s of these rifles to SE Asia. At the same time hand guns and 1903 Spflds. were being cut up for scrap.  This was done at the Crane Naval Weapons Center near Bedford, Indiana.

 At the end of the day,does it really matter that much. Except for the 1911,I cant think of any of those old guns (ok,some larger machine guns I think may still be in service) that are still being used after 100 years by the military (or by police forces). The main point which got side tracked as to how long a gun will last. The fact is,if the gun is considered obsolete,the large buyers,that is police and military customers,wont care that much its still usable. It it works when they get it,works every day its in service,and works the day its taken out of service,they wont care if it fails the day after that. (OK,they probably WOULD be concerned becuase you cant predict to the day when something will fail,but my point is clear) If the gun is expected to be used for 25 years and the materials are expected to be good for 50 years,that would be good enough. Even with steel guns,you start out with 100% in working order,and by the time your ready for new ones,many have fallen prey to poor maintenance,neglect or accidental damage. Talk to people who were in the army just before they stopped using the 1911 and they will tell you how sorry the stockpile of 1911s were. (of course,in hindsight,maybe they should not have sold off or demilled ANY of them but instead kept them in a warehouse until ALL armed forces stopped using them and they were considered obsolete but that's another discussion)

[His lordship.]

You don't see/hear much about the government chopping, cutting, up good military guns anymore.  I used to see several sold as paper weights at gun shows back in the 1980's-and 90's.  I even bought the remains of a Garand receiver once, kept it as a novelty. 

[SHOOTALL]

M-14's were chopped now they are in short supply now that the M4 is found wanting on the modern battlefield in long range ( over 300 yards)applications. What did they do with old M-60's ? lots of guns get chopped along with parts .

[Range Rider]

I checked with some of my old contacts in the weapons field.  It seems that the scrap is no longer sold to the public.  The scrap goes to a smelter.  The M-14 Rec. of course were select fire and they will not hit the civilan market.  The M-60s so far as I know, are in strorage and are being used to some extent.  I think the M-4s will end up in the hands of we hope friends.

[mrussel]

I checked with some of my old contacts in the weapons field.  It seems that the scrap is no longer sold to the public.  The scrap goes to a smelter.  The M-14 Rec. of course were select fire and they will not hit the civilan market.  The M-60s so far as I know, are in strorage and are being used to some extent.  I think the M-4s will end up in the hands of we hope friends.

 Someone with really good welding skills can put one back together so good that you cant even see the welds. I personally would not trust that and would fully expect it to blow up in my face,but I'm assuming that's why they dont sell them.

[Squib]

it's dense plastic, and if it lasts 40 years I'll be in my mid sixties when the gun goes out of service- I have others and will be too feeble to get much use out of most of them.  any gun that is used hard and abused WILL go down for maintenace, if not BREAK, as that is how reality works.  I assume that if a glock that is ? years old can handle 10mm and 357 SIG then 40S&W, 9mm Luger and 45acp users should hold up good in the long run.

I'm guessing that since auto "polymer" stuff under car hoods lasts quite awhile when exposed to random chemicals, often very reactive PETROLEUM based chemicals at that, 200 degrees fahrenheit plus, great humidity at over 200 F (which IS a known issue for glock frames, they soak up water if it's really hot), and plenty of neglect- that a firearm that is built to take quite a bit of battering, be exposed to gun cleaning chemicals, be a reliable duty weapon for huge markets, not be a liability due to kB risk, and keep the makers rich would be dependable enough to at LEAST take the same amound of stressors as the stuff under a car hood (which one never will under anything other than a deliberate torture test).  The thing that DOES bother me about a glock is that a dog can chew it up, and abrasion of the frame is always possible.

[Range Rider]

Hey Skippy have you seen my Glock?  In the Brave new world animals can destroy mans most modern weapons.

[mrussel]

it's dense plastic, and if it lasts 40 years I'll be in my mid sixties when the gun goes out of service- I have others and will be too feeble to get much use out of most of them.  any gun that is used hard and abused WILL go down for maintenace, if not BREAK, as that is how reality works.  I assume that if a glock that is ? years old can handle 10mm and 357 SIG then 40S&W, 9mm Luger and 45acp users should hold up good in the long run.

I'm guessing that since auto "polymer" stuff under car hoods lasts quite awhile when exposed to random chemicals, often very reactive PETROLEUM based chemicals at that, 200 degrees fahrenheit plus, great humidity at over 200 F (which IS a known issue for glock frames, they soak up water if it's really hot), and plenty of neglect- that a firearm that is built to take quite a bit of battering, be exposed to gun cleaning chemicals, be a reliable duty weapon for huge markets, not be a liability due to kB risk, and keep the makers rich would be dependable enough to at LEAST take the same amound of stressors as the stuff under a car hood (which one never will under anything other than a deliberate torture test).  The thing that DOES bother me about a glock is that a dog can chew it up, and abrasion of the frame is always possible.

 Are you planning on having a heart attack or stroke? You might want to lay off the Cheetos and beer NOW!    Seriously,in your mid 60s your hardly going to be so feeble you cant lift a gun unless something terrible goes wrong. If it does though,you should consider giving your guns to me.  I plan on being that old guy at the range sighting in my rifle getting ready for Elk season,and telling the youn-uns how to do it right and properly use a rifle to hit long range targets (by then I should have gotten the hang of it myself).
 
 On the subject of things under your cars hoods,plastics are rarely used for structural purposes like they are with the Glock. The intense and constant heat and the constant exposure to petroleum products make for a situation where it just would not work well.  There are polymer components that have to take stress like belts and hoses but those are disposable components which although they last quite a while need to be periodicaly inspected and in many cases replaced on a preventative maintenance schedule (the timing belt for instance) Heat and chemicals are the enemy of plastics. Most of the plastics are used for housings and duct work,and electrical insulation where they dont have to support anything,be under tension or compression or contain things under pressure. Even these degrade. On old cars I have found plastic covers and housings that have become so weak they crumble under the slightest stress from years of being heated while soaked in oil. These parts may or may not have to be replaces depending on where the damage is. (for instance,if its in flange meant to be screwed down to the engine,sometimes there are enough redundant screws to hold it in place and you just ignore it.)  Other times you find something like an air filter housing or timing belt cover (these are some of the worst offender as they often get oil on them and are down where its hot) that is just degraded beyond usefulness. This part is an example of something that would likely last the life of the car and beyond if it were made out of stamped sheet metal. Other parts such as exhaust components degrade even though they are made from metal but in fact,there are various high temperature ceramic composits that for many parts might actually last LONGER than metal.

 The real problem about the Glock that this thread got me worrying about is,what IS the life expectancy of the Glocks frame. I dont think its 300 years. I bet by then the plastic WILL degrade. I also think it will last longer than 10 or 20 years. Somewhere in between is going to be a number. Im sure the engineers at Glock and all the other companies that make similar guns know what it is. What I wish is that they would be upfront about it. (If they thought their frames would last 200 years,I bet they would brag about it!)

[Curtis]

mrussel, I chuckled at that one too but let it slide because after all, he's just a pup.  I can remember a time in my life when I thought anyone over 30 wasn't "with it" and anyone over 40 might as well just give up and die.  My Dad is 82 and helping me remodel my kitchen right now.  As I get older, 65 is looking younger and younger!!

Curtis

[His lordship.]

I used to watch Antiques Roadshow and they would mention a plastic called "Bakelite" from the 1920's and 30's.  I also remember reading that the 1941 Lincoln had plastic for inside trim, also, weren't clothing buttons made of plastic back in the day?  I checked online for when plastic was first used and it was in 1855, but people were afraid of it and the uses were eventually expanded  Perhaps it is like wood, exposure to weird temps and moisture or dryness does em' in?

[teddy12b]

Does anyone know any real facts on any of this especially how it relates to glocks?  Like what % of what generation of glock had failures.  I don't know any facts or statistics about any recals glock or any other polymer handgun has had, but I do know there's a cult like following of glock owners and 1911 owners for a reason.

If anyone has any facts I'd love to see some of that.

[mrussel]

mrussel, I chuckled at that one too but let it slide because after all, he's just a pup.  I can remember a time in my life when I thought anyone over 30 wasn't "with it" and anyone over 40 might as well just give up and die.  My Dad is 82 and helping me remodel my kitchen right now.  As I get older, 65 is looking younger and younger!!

Curtis

Maybe we should all keep a light weight aluminum handgun around with one round stored in it for that day when we are too feeble and weak to lift any of the others.

[mrussel]

I used to watch Antiques Roadshow and they would mention a plastic called "Bakelite" from the 1920's and 30's.  I also remember reading that the 1941 Lincoln had plastic for inside trim, also, weren't clothing buttons made of plastic back in the day?  I checked online for when plastic was first used and it was in 1855, but people were afraid of it and the uses were eventually expanded  Perhaps it is like wood, exposure to weird temps and moisture or dryness does em' in?

 Most plastics are reasonably immune to moisture. Heat of course is the enemy of plastics as is sunlight. The UV in sunlight breaks the bonds in the polymer chains and degrades it. Coatings can help with that. Chemicals can also degrade plastics but I presume the ones they use are relatively stable under the oils used on guns.

[SHOOTALL]

Does anyone know any real facts on any of this especially how it relates to glocks?  Like what % of what generation of glock had failures.  I don't know any facts or statistics about any recals glock or any other polymer handgun has had, but I do know there's a cult like following of glock owners and 1911 owners for a reason.

If anyone has any facts I'd love to see some of that.

There are several sites you can get the info you want. Put glock recall in your serch box . BTW the frame deal is called a free upgrade not a recall. Spin for sure. You will see spring failures , rail failures etc if you look.