Melting point of polymer framed guns?

[His lordship.]

I have been adding more and more polymer framed guns to my collection and have been wondering how much heat they will take before temperature extremes begins to affect them, like melting? 

When I was a kid I left a plastic model airplane in my Dad's Chevy back window on a hot Philadelphia Summer day and it was all sagging from the heat, but modern cars must use some better plastic as my Olds does not melt in the Texas heat when the windows are up.  Has anyone left a Glock, etc. in the sun or near hot machinery and had any problems?

Thanks. 

[mrussel]

I have been adding more and more polymer framed guns to my collection and have been wondering how much heat they will take before temperature extremes begins to affect them, like melting? 

When I was a kid I left a plastic model airplane in my Dad's Chevy back window on a hot Philadelphia Summer day and it was all sagging from the heat, but modern cars must use some better plastic as my Olds does not melt in the Texas heat when the windows are up.  Has anyone left a Glock, etc. in the sun or near hot machinery and had any problems?

Thanks. 

 I left a portable radio in the back of a car in the california summer on a 115 degree day once. The whole thing was sagging and warped and melted,totally ruined. Id had the same radio left in hot places or in direct sun,but the temperatures in a car can get much hotter than that. Still,I suspect that guns are made out of sturdier stuff. I bet if you called Glock they would tell you the maximum (and perhaps minimum) storage and operating temperatures for the weapon.

[GatCat]

I don't know, but I have heard that one of the standards that the Feds, and some States, use to determine what is classified as a "Saturday Night Special" ( to prevent them from being made/imported/sold/'etc ) is a melting point of less then 1000 degree's. This elimanates "pot metal". If this is true, then I'd say that the melting point of the Polymer frames would be over 1000 degrees, since they are made/sold/imported, etc.
This is just something I read in passing, I don't know the accuracy of it.
Mark

[rockbilly]

I have pretty much avoided the plastic guns because of concerns about longevity that said, I really think polymer is a wonderful product and that the durability is far better than most expect.

I worked in the aircraft industry for many years; I started with the F-111back in the mid-sixties, and worked to bring the B-1 and B-2 aircraft into the Air Force inventory.   All of these aircraft use composites such as the material the plastic guns are made of.  Would it survive an aircraft fire?  I doubt it, but they do survive the continued exposure of the elements while setting on the flight line.  I never noted a problem from the elements.  I wouldn’t trust a Glock that went through a house fire but I might consider an all steel gun if the heat was not too intense.

My thoughts have always been, like Grandpa’s old Colt, the steel guns will be here 100 years from now if taken care of…………we can’t say that about plastic yet!

[james]

I prefer wood and steel but I've seen a lot more guns damaged or inoperable by rust than heat.  I carry the polymers if I'm going to be sweating on them and will take my chances on them melting.

[teddy12b]

I really don't think it's a concern.  The near indestructable reputation that glocks have wouldn't be there if they were melting on the back of people's cars.  The XD's & M&P's are quickly gaining their own cult like followings as well for their reliability in all conditions.  Surely in all these years someone has done some kind of a heat torture test.  As a side note I believe Glock recently sold a bunch of their pistols to Iran and it's pretty hot over there.

[mrussel]

I really don't think it's a concern.  The near indestructable reputation that glocks have wouldn't be there if they were melting on the back of people's cars.  The XD's & M&P's are quickly gaining their own cult like followings as well for their reliability in all conditions.  Surely in all these years someone has done some kind of a heat torture test.  As a side note I believe Glock recently sold a bunch of their pistols to Iran and it's pretty hot over there.

 Actually,maybe they DO melt but it only happens in the back of cars in the hotter parts of California when it gets above 115 degrees. No one knows though,becuase California has strong gun control laws so there arent any Glocks in California. In Arizona where it gets similar hot,there are not any Glocks either,because in Arizona,they like good steel guns,either big revolvers or 1911s. (A big cowboy hat and a rusty pickup truck just dont look right with a plastic gun)   


  (Glock fans are going to be coming for me now,in all seriousness,Glocks are great guns. I dont like em myself,but that's a matter of preference not quality)

[no guns here]

Don't worry, as good as the Glock is... I can't stand they way they feel in my hand.  No doubt they are accurate, as reliable as a cast iron skillet and more durable than most, I just don't like the feel.


NGH

[SHOOTALL]

TeamNelson posted else where on the site that Glock has a buy back program for military and police to replace Gen. 1 frames because they are getting brittle and showing signs of wear and cracking. This should be easy to check on their site. If true also exposes the fact they are not the greatest thing since a shirt pocket . A good gun but one with limitations it seems. With all the plastics out there it should be interesting to see the fall out from this . Bet someone offers its a plot to make guns break in the future and leave us with out weapons . 

[teddy12b]

TeamNelson posted else where on the site that Glock has a buy back program for military and police to replace Gen. 1 frames because they are getting brittle and showing signs of wear and cracking. This should be easy to check on their site. If true also exposes the fact they are not the greatest thing since a shirt pocket . A good gun but one with limitations it seems. With all the plastics out there it should be interesting to see the fall out from this . Bet someone offers its a plot to make guns break in the future and leave us with out weapons . 

How old are those pistols?  I tried to lookup how long ago it was when the first glocks came out but didn't find anything.  The plastic may get brittle with time, but compare a glock against any other pistol of similar price and see which one has the higher round count before parts break.  I'm not a glock guy because I don't like the grips, but their new small frame models have nearly fixed that for me and I may be getting on the bandwagon.  They're still ugly, but I'm after function before beauty.

[mrussel]

TeamNelson posted else where on the site that Glock has a buy back program for military and police to replace Gen. 1 frames because they are getting brittle and showing signs of wear and cracking. This should be easy to check on their site. If true also exposes the fact they are not the greatest thing since a shirt pocket . A good gun but one with limitations it seems. With all the plastics out there it should be interesting to see the fall out from this . Bet someone offers its a plot to make guns break in the future and leave us with out weapons .  

How old are those pistols?  I tried to lookup how long ago it was when the first glocks came out but didn't find anything.  The plastic may get brittle with time, but compare a glock against any other pistol of similar price and see which one has the higher round count before parts break.  I'm not a glock guy because I don't like the grips, but their new small frame models have nearly fixed that for me and I may be getting on the bandwagon.  They're still ugly, but I'm after function before beauty.

 If that's true its definatly an issue. Plastic,when it does degrade,can do so even when stored and not exposed to the elements. Its also the case that ALL plastics degrade to some extent under UV from the sun. There are plastics that are resistant and ones that are not so resistant,but they all do to an extent. On the other hand, if you found a 1911,made in that year, that had been properly stored in cosmoline and placed in a box on a shelf for nearly 100 years,except perhaps for a few easily and cheaply replaceable springs,it would be as good as the day it was made. Ive always wondered how the polymer framed guns would hold up under that situation. One question I have is,will they replace it?  The second is,if this is really long term degradation of the plastic,whats the time frame. If it is,I guess that means that a Glock has a life expectancy for serious use,then becomes a range gun until it breaks,then they fix it and it can be a concealed carry gun again. (Now tell me my 1911 is "tempermental") For police agencies this might not be a problem though. If the advantages of the polymer frame guns are big enough,they can just make sure they dont keep them past their time limits. There are also tests that could be done to verify the integrity of the frame,but I dont think anyone really can do them at this time and exactly what needs to be done and a set of somewhat simple instructions your gun smith can follow (if it involves neutron diffraction,or x-raying the frame for instance,he cant do it) They could even negotiate contracts with glock to test, upgrade or replace the frames. Of course,we who do not have mass purchasing power may well be out of luck.

  When you think about it,this may be a place where the laws are out of touch with reality. The idea being,if the frame is disposable and needs the be replaced periodically,the idea that "the gun is the frame" is ridiculous. Since the frames are plastic,in theory they should be the cheapest part of the gun. (They do have metal parts,but still)  It could also be that the pistol design may be defective,in that a part that degrades and is disposable may be irreplaceable.

 I saw this at a gun store the other day http://www.sigsauer.com/products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=54&productid=281. It comes with two "frames". I noticed the receiver was NOT integral to the frame and the serial number is stamped on one metal receiver/trigger group and shows through a hole in the grip. What that means is that the frame is just a piece of plastic and should be very cheap to replace. Perhaps if plastic parts really do degrade,this is how all such guns should be made. Of course this is all speculation. Im very interested to hear if there really has been a problem discovered. I almost bought a S&W Sigma because they were so cheap,the idea being,its a S&W,it might not be the best,but you expect a decent gun from them. Of course for less than 300 dollars,which is what it cost new after the rebate,I might be more inclined to accept that it might be a gun that was reliable out of the box,but had a 10 year (or whatever it is) life expectancy before I can no longer trust it. I dont like that idea with guns,but if I KNEW that going in,its a lot different than buying a gun for 800 dollars,expecting it to be like every other gun I have,and finding out its not.
 

[Brett]

Modern plastics are getting better all the time.  I've got a 10 year old tupperware canoe that looks almost like new and it has spent a lot of time in the sun. 

[mrussel]

Modern plastics are getting better all the time.  I've got a 10 year old tupperware canoe that looks almost like new and it has spent a lot of time in the sun.  

 Thats also a good point. I also have read someone telling their experiences with a cracked glock frame. They said that Glock said that there were some (and by some,do they mean some or all?) pistols made early on that were defective and they replaced his frame. Its certainly "easy" to make defective plastic parts. You add a little too much or too little crosslinker or filler during the process and end up with something that does not meet specs or wont last as long as it should. It certainly would be believable even if early ones had problems that later ones might not. I would actually be surprised to learn that the polymers (I understand Glock fans dont like calling it plastic) they use today are the exact same as the ones they used 20 years ago.

 If its true it also brings up another important point. Lets assume for a moment that the early ones have degradation issues that have been fixed. What about OTHER brands of polymer framed guns? Will they hold up as well. I would expect Glocks to hold up best,which implies that OTHER guns will hold up at best as well as they do,and perhaps worse. Has anyone ever heard of degradation issues with the old Remington Nylon rifles?

[tacklebury]

My buddy has a nylon 66 that's been knocking around in his truck since the late 60's and in the bed of the truck and under snow even and still shoots good.  lol  I think those things are incredible.  He still shoots coon with it when they get one treed.

[SHOOTALL]

In plumbing we use a lot of different plastics . Some are made to be exposed to high heat . I have yet to see any plastic that did not get britle over time .
Its one thing to wear a gun out but to think it is getting brittle sitting in the safe is another . Like nite sights they go bad.

[mrussel]

In plumbing we use a lot of different plastics . Some are made to be exposed to high heat . I have yet to see any plastic that did not get britle over time .
Its one thing to wear a gun out but to think it is getting brittle sitting in the safe is another . Like nite sights they go bad.

 Ive opened up 30 year old plastic parts and had them be brittle and useless,but Ive also opened some up and found them to be as good as the day they were made.

[SHOOTALL]

Thats true but plastic parts that have been in use that saw any pressure , vibration or stress always show wear .

Lets face it the gun industry has found a way to incooprate planned obsolescence in to its business pratices .And the gun buyers have taken it hook line and sinker.
Take a  look- Plastic frame flexes more is sold as a benifit and we bought it only to realize the more you flex plastic the faster it wears out . Lighter - True but most realize a heavier gun is easier to shoot more accurate .So is it better to carry a couple more oz. and be accurate and faster on follow up or have a light gun ? Won't rust - True as far as the frame but the springs and other parts will so its hype really. No grips to worry with , right try getting shate board tape right or fight a grip sleeve into place .

[teddy12b]

I get the general dislike because the guns are plastic and not steel, but they've got a good reputation for a reason too.  Round for round I think a plastic gun will last as longer any other of similar price.

[SHOOTALL]

Then why is Glock replacing frames on gen 1 guns ? Back when they were new you could get a 1991-A1 for about the same price And before that a Standard ser 80 for not much more. Haven't seen where those frames were wearing out ? They were of better metal that the 1911's made for WW1 and 2 which in many cases are still up and running.
 And while were are talking every Glock match I have shot in and several IDPA matches there were Glock people rebuilding guns . If you shoot alot even Glock needs parts.
But I do agree with ya in one respect maybe if ya own a Glock better to shoot it alot before it ages .
 This is not a cut to the plastic pistol it is reconizing that militarys and police want economics and the ablity to change from time to time with out extreame cost ( how many times did they rebuild 1911 in the US military ?) . The question is if private owners want a disposable frame gun ? is it a good investment ?

[oldandslow]

"Has anyone ever heard of degradation issues issues with the old Remington nylon rifles"? I have one. I managed to let it fall over out of my gunsafe. The wrist of the stock was on the lip of the door when it landed on the carpeted floor. It didn't even make any noise but the stock broke completely in two across the wrist. Try finding a replacement stock. I'm still pondering how to repair this as it is an excellent rifle otherwise.

I still kind of remember a Remington advertisement in magazines when they were building the Nylon 66. The rifle was laying with one end on a rock (I think) with a truck wheel parked in the middle of it to show how tough it was. Time changes everything.  I read a Canon photo quality ad for ink and paper sometime ago and they claimed a 100 year life before it faded. How do you test for that? 

Back to the OP. I don't think there is any danger leaving your "plastic" pistol in your vehicle during the day although I wouldn't leave it in direct sunlight. I don't think it would deform but it could degrade over time from UV and IR rays. There are many different types of "plastic" made today for different applications and I suspect that those used in guns are some of the more durable. I own one "plastic" pistol, not a Glock, and it has spent a lot of time in my vehicles. No problems yet.

[teddy12b]

Then why is Glock replacing frames on gen 1 guns ? Back when they were new you could get a 1991-A1 for about the same price And before that a Standard ser 80 for not much more. Haven't seen where those frames were wearing out ? They were of better metal that the 1911's made for WW1 and 2 which in many cases are still up and running.
 And while were are talking every Glock match I have shot in and several IDPA matches there were Glock people rebuilding guns . If you shoot alot even Glock needs parts.
But I do agree with ya in one respect maybe if ya own a Glock better to shoot it alot before it ages .
 This is not a cut to the plastic pistol it is reconizing that militarys and police want economics and the ablity to change from time to time with out extreame cost ( how many times did they rebuild 1911 in the US military ?) . The question is if private owners want a disposable frame gun ? is it a good investment ?

I don't think you can compare steel to plastic in terms of what's going to last the longest in a normal situation.  I think usually the steel will win, but I'm not sure about being around saltwater.  For the money though look at what you get in plastic vs steel.  An XD 45 with 13rds for $500 or a 1911 GI with 7rds for the same $.  To get a decent 1911 like a loaded model you're looking at a minimum of $750 in todays prices.  When the emotion is removed from the decision the plastic guns win for capacity, price and durability every time.  I don't know about you all, but there's no way I'd expect any gun to be in perfect condition after I've owned it for 20 or 30 years.  Generally I don't have any guns that I hold on to that long anyway.  My guns get shot, and then sold once I get bored and want something different.

[gypsyman]

A friend of mine, who, unfortunately, passed away a couple months ago, bought a Glock 17 when they first came out in the early '90's. According to him, he knew he had put between 80,000 and 90,000 rds. thru that gun. Cast,jacketed,plated, whatever. And most of it was with the original barrel. Never got hot enough to warp the frame I guess, but it still shot real good. gypsyman

[SHOOTALL]

teddy12b here a glock 21 is close to 600 and a para is only a 100 and change more if that much the para holds 14 +1 . It is coated with a rust preventive coating . I think the para is a better deal by far. With the LDA trigger they ain't even close .

[SHOOTALL]

I have also seen glock mags split from being in trucks and the heat of summer.

[teddy12b]

teddy12b here a glock 21 is close to 600 and a para is only a 100 and change more if that much the para holds 14 +1 . It is coated with a rust preventive coating . I think the para is a better deal by far. With the LDA trigger they ain't even close .

A long time ago I had a glock .40 the one with long slide and I've had a Para P-14 45 with the regular 1911 trigger.  I liked both guns alot, but if I was trying to compare the finishes, the Para would be in 2nd place.  Not that it's bad, it's just not as good as the glock finish was.

[teddy12b]

A friend of mine, who, unfortunately, passed away a couple months ago, bought a Glock 17 when they first came out in the early '90's. According to him, he knew he had put between 80,000 and 90,000 rds. thru that gun. Cast,jacketed,plated, whatever. And most of it was with the original barrel. Never got hot enough to warp the frame I guess, but it still shot real good. gypsyman

First off, I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.

Secondly, 80,000 to 90,000 rounds is an incredible amount of shooting through any gun and I think he got his moneys worth out of it. 

[SHOOTALL]

teddy12b , that's the point getting your money out of it.

[mrussel]

Thats true but plastic parts that have been in use that saw any pressure , vibration or stress always show wear .

Lets face it the gun industry has found a way to incooprate planned obsolescence in to its business pratices .And the gun buyers have taken it hook line and sinker.
Take a  look- Plastic frame flexes more is sold as a benifit and we bought it only to realize the more you flex plastic the faster it wears out . Lighter - True but most realize a heavier gun is easier to shoot more accurate .So is it better to carry a couple more oz. and be accurate and faster on follow up or have a light gun ? Won't rust - True as far as the frame but the springs and other parts will so its hype really. No grips to worry with , right try getting shate board tape right or fight a grip sleeve into place .

 Yup,they need gold,chrome or nickle plated springs! =) Actually,plastic can flex quite a but and return to its original shape with no ill effects or "memory" of the event. All materials are like that actually. Its just plastic does it more so. I rubber band even more. Still,any material has a point when flexed beyond which it will be permanently altered. Its just a matter of whether the designer/engineer did is job right and made sure that didn't happen. Thats why we see reports of 100 year old steel guns (just take a look at some of the Marine Corps 1911s. While they are now wearing out and have been rebuilt countless times,the taxpayers certainly got their money out of them) that are still as good as the day they were made and also see reports of Glocks that have had 80k rounds through them. I wouldn't characterize Glocks as some sort of conspiracy to sell us cheap plastic guns that will wear out so they can sell us more cheap plastic guns. There are good points of plastic and bad points. Being light is always good in a material. Its easy to add more weight,but hard to reduce it. I may hate Glocks,and and say things like "If my gun for some reason jams,I can at least hit em with it,see if you can do that with your Nerf gun!" but I see the point. If for some reason all I had was Glock,I wouldn't feel that I had a bad weapon,or that I was insufficiently armed. I would just have to get used to an unfamiliar weapon.

[Brett]

Some of you guys must have short memories.  Didn't S&W come out with the beefed up 'L' frame due to the fact that their .357 mag 'K' frames were stretching, forcing cones were splitting and the top straps experienced flame cutting problems?    Seems I also recall the early Beretta M9 was plagued with slide failures.   

Guess what I'm trying to say is that just because a gun is made out of metal doesn't guarantee it will last any longer than a 'plastic' gun.   Polymer guns have only been around a relatively short time, only time will tell how well they will actually hold up.  I figure my plastic fantastic M&P .40 will likely outlive me and my 11 year old.   

[SHOOTALL]

Plastic is not metal nor reacts like metal.
Flame cutting is always addressed by adding steel to the area . My S&W Ti has a steel shield to prevent flame cutting . I dare say plastic would not fare well here. I have seen plastic used systems to remove hot flue gas . The saw it recalled. Most small frame S&W revolvers will get out of time if fed a large amount of high pressure ammo or are subjected to abuse .
Time will tell fersure !