Author Topic: Throwing Dogs Off Your Trail (Read 12986 times)

myronman3 · « **Reply #30 on:** November 03, 2010, 04:51:53 PM »

the only way i know that would stop a tracking dog reliaby would be to kill it.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #31 on:** November 04, 2010, 06:01:49 AM »

Glad I finally got around to reading this thread. Interesting stuff this!

So's not to hijack this one, Ima gonna start a thread in hunting dogs about training deer tracking dogs. Sure would like some of you knowledgable people to give me your input.

Scibaer · « **Reply #32 on:** November 24, 2010, 11:36:41 AM »

the only time i could imagine needing the abillity to thwart a tracking dog, is after having committed a crime ..
and if thats the case, you'd likely have more worries then getting tracked down by the dog..
but i guess you could get on a bike, car, plane , train or other motorized transport ,
or not do the crime

TRIGGERTIME · « **Reply #33 on:** November 30, 2010, 04:45:34 PM »

Maybe I'm being oversensitive. I get the feeling some people are questioning my motives.

A friend of mine is flying an attack helicopter over Iraq. But in reality, she could be flying it over -fill in the blank tomorrow-. Some of you can't 'imagine' why someone would need this information. I hope she only ever has to 'imagine' what she would do.

Furthermore: Hitler,Stalin, Tung, Pot, Hussein. I'll bet they had dogs to track 'criminals' too. Are you counting on your 'dogma' to protect you from the dogs?

myronman3 · « **Reply #34 on:** December 06, 2010, 05:32:50 AM »

the ONLY thing i think that might stand a chance, would be if it were a male dog and there was a female in heat around.
if there was a trained dog that still had his stones, and would ignore a female in heat and stayed on the track, i would be very impressed. i would have to see that one though to believe it.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #35 on:** December 06, 2010, 04:36:38 PM »

Kill em. A trip wire shotgun trap should do the trick. A rifle shot from cover would also be an option. I also had an Army buddy whose cousin had beaten a police dog to death, he didn't get away and went to prison.

chefjeff · « **Reply #36 on:** December 07, 2010, 05:40:56 AM »

My dad was in germany(army). Had a big shepherd attack him. He bit him up some . The old man stuck his pointed hand down the dogs throat, and with his other hand grabbed the lower jaw and broke it, back toward the neck.The bark and bite left the dog,and the PFC left a blood trail back to the barracks.Thats the way he told it to me.

jamesrus · « **Reply #37 on:** February 28, 2011, 05:21:34 PM »

Plain and simple....we humans.....stink......to a dog. We are easy to track because of all the processed smells we have from after shave to clothes detergent to odor eaters. A hound tracks by smell on the wind that has stuck to surrounding objects, very little by smell on the ground. As far as the snow rescue dogs, they also use smell but also depend on hearing a lot. Have you ever seen the foxes on tv jumping up and plunging their head into the snow? They are hearing the rodents running under the snow. I have helped train deer dogs, rabbit dogs, bloodhounds, and cadaver dogs. We trained the cadaver dogs by getting extracted teeth from the local dentist and putting them into a pill bottle with a couple hole drilled in it. After a few days the dog can smell the decomposition through water, dirt, ashes, rubble, just about anything.

Jamesrus

btmidwest · « **Reply #38 on:** March 21, 2011, 07:18:47 AM »

Thanks Guys, This is a great thread. BT

bilmac · « **Reply #39 on:** March 21, 2011, 08:18:42 AM »

I'm probably here today because of a scout dog in Viet Nam. It kept us from walking into an ambush with the NVA in bunkers and us in the open.

blind ear · « **Reply #40 on:** March 23, 2011, 05:02:45 PM »

bilmac,
how are scout dogs used and trained? are they leashed or allowed to run loose? I never heard of that type of dog before? ear

Spirithawk · « **Reply #41 on:** March 23, 2011, 05:54:00 PM »

I saw them used both ways but usualy without a leash.

ironglow · « **Reply #42 on:** March 23, 2011, 06:31:14 PM »

Dee;
I never worked with human tracking dogs but spent a lifetime with hunting dogs, primarily coon hunting My Dad and big brothers with hounds and myself with Airedales and Jack Russells.
The situation you cited about trailing a distance from the actual trail has been a common situation. I have seen dogs do this many times, without even putting their nose to the ground...my Dad used to call iot "winding" as opposed to trailing. As you said, it is obvious the dog is taking the scent right out of the air or on the wind.
I have seen a couple times where the tailgate dropped and the dog left the truck with his nose in the air...and winded directly to the tree, a couple hundred yards away.

A young Marine friend, who grew up in our church and Sunday School and actually a 'shirt-tail' relation to me has just returned from his second tour to Afghanistan..with his dog, a Belgian Malinoise. In Afghanistan he was attached to a British unit and served them in their bomb detection needs. Now he is stationed at Quantico and works on the presidential security team..
These dogs must have a relatively short "shelf life", because the dog is retired and has been adopted by Tim, the Marine who handled her (I think it's a her) during her whole career .

bilmac · « **Reply #43 on:** March 23, 2011, 06:44:44 PM »

Dogs and handlers were assigned to our company when they were thought to enhance the mission. Usually we went without. This time we had one assigned. This one was on a leash. It was during the time when the US ground forces entered Cambodia, and we were walking down the Ho Chi Minh trail. There were bunkers on either side of it. At first we checked all the bunkers but there were so many that after while we quit. After a 1/2 mile or so the dog alerted. While we were stopped an NVA popped out of a bunker a hundred or so yards ahead of us. The dog smelled him that far away. The scout dogs were noted for being able to distinguish between GIs and NVA.

We circled around through the woods and hit the road at a different place. All of the bunkers were occupied, if we had walked another few hundred yards we would have been in the middle of a very bad ambush.

blind ear · « **Reply #44 on:** March 23, 2011, 07:03:47 PM »

I'm glad you made it back. ear

ironglow · « **Reply #45 on:** March 24, 2011, 01:46:55 AM »

Yup ! Glad that ambush wasn't sprung .. The Lord works in mysterious ways...

charles p · « **Reply #46 on:** March 30, 2011, 05:09:08 PM »

When my son was in the 1st grade, he asked his teacher about bringing his dog Sadie to show-and-tell on Friday. She agreed. I took our basset mix breed to the play ground and the class came out to meet it. My son was elated. The teacher asked if the dog could do any tricks? I hid the dog in the floor of the back seat and told the kid to play hide like we did at home. My young son ran all over that playground and finally hide behind an automobile. I released the mut and told her to find the kid.

The school yard probably had thousands of little footprints all freshly made with tennis shoes. That dog put her nose to the ground and correctly ran the crooked track my kid had made and found him 400 yds away behnd an auto.

The teacher and class were unimpressed. They wanted to see a trick!

Hooker · « **Reply #47 on:** April 01, 2011, 06:31:45 PM »

Can't remember the movie but they used heroin mixed with rabbits blood to throw the dogs off.
Seems they allowed that a stoned dog don't track to good. Ahh Hollywood who knows?
The only thing my dog can track is food

Pat

Buck-Ridge · « **Reply #48 on:** April 03, 2011, 04:03:36 PM »

A dog would be very hard to fool. Most of a dog's brain is devoted to it's nose. It is what they think with. If your beagle is looking for you when hunting and you are a long way off and hears you calling and sees you . He will back trail himself back to your scent to find you. They trust their nose above their other senses. You might be able to out walk a horse but not a dog. A dog can go for miles in a day and they will keep going. Dogs also smell the respiration from the pores in your skin and and exhaled breath. They often run a track downwind of their quarry where the scent hits the ground. Bare dirt that is dry will slow a track dog down more than anything.

ironglow · « **Reply #49 on:** April 04, 2011, 02:11:50 AM »

Quote from: chefjeff on December 07, 2010, 05:40:56 AM

My dad was in germany(army). Had a big shepherd attack him. He bit him up some . The old man stuck his pointed hand down the dogs throat, and with his other hand grabbed the lower jaw and broke it, back toward the neck.The bark and bite left the dog,and the PFC left a blood trail back to the barracks.Thats the way he told it to me.

Chefjeff;
That may have been about when I was in Germany 1962-65. I had a friend at the time who was an MP with the dogs..he told me that upon rare occasions, they had dogs which turned upon their handlers. He said when this happens, you cannot avoid a bite..you justv have to "feed them" something, usually a forearm..then do what your Dad did.

TMs beagle.. I read a book by a pro handler one time. He said all dogs have tremendous odor detection abilities. What they trail most, depends upon how they process the information their nose provides them. If a beagle chooses to trail humans, he could be good at it.

A number of the local "good old boys" get together each morning, 6 days per week....and I am usually there. One of our gang is a veterinarian . In a discussion a ferw weeks ago, he told us that dogs have exponentially more 'receptors' in their noses than we do, thus their increased ability. Curiously, most real trail dogs are of a longer nosed variety...more inner surfaces to carry receptors..
He said that one animal which may beat the dog in scenting ability...is the bear..

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #50 on:** April 04, 2011, 03:10:29 AM »

I have hunted all my life with dogs . Bird dogs do some really fine work . To watch a turkey dog work is a true privlage. Rabbit dogs do great work as do coon dogs. I sat on a slight hill where two creeks come togather. Not big creeks as you could step across them . The area around them was mixed woods and thick under brush. It wasn't doe season . This doe comes down one creek and goes up the other creek. A pack of dogs come down and check then follow. The doe circles and comes back the way she had gone. Another doe comes from down creek and goes up the creek the first doe came down the first time. Both does had dogs after them the dogs met at the junction of the creeks. They didn't check each other out long and seemed to go after both deer . To be honest I don't know if the same packs stayed togather or not 100% but most seemed to. Seems they know each deet . Great work. My lab is used to track wounded deer along with water fowl hunting. I lost then run over my wallet with the bush hog. I found 1/2 she found the other half after leting her smell the half I found.
I would add you don't train a dog , you learn to trust them and guide them . They train you to understand what they are telling you

jlwilliams · « **Reply #51 on:** April 04, 2011, 03:35:54 AM »

Interesting and informative thread.

Just to recap what I'm getting from the conversation: "fooling" the dog's nose isn't going to happen. Anything you do to confuse the dog is wasting time that you need to make distance.
That is why the OP's friend learned in SERE school that to live you need to move and keep moving.

If you are trying to elude dogs in a military context, you need to move and get to friendly forces. If you are trying to elude in a situation where you have brokem the law (or those persuing you think you have) then you are better off surrendering (American LE isn't going to execute you on the spot, unlike what may happen in some countries) The only way to "beat" law enforcement is in court. If you are innocent you need to shut up and lawyer up, you DO NOT want to try to outrun LE. That is counter productive and an offense in it's own right. Running away, pepper spraying the dog, all that stuff is illegal. If you didn't brake the law and the police think you did, shut up and lawyer up. Save yourself getting bitten by the dog. Be polite, get printed, wait for an attorney.

Now if you are in a third world country and being persued by crooked LE who may just shoot you or if you are being chased by kidnappers with dogs; all bets are off. Hopefuly in a case like that the oposition doesn't have well trained dogs and hopefuly you brought your running shoes

ironglow · « **Reply #52 on:** April 04, 2011, 05:22:37 AM »

Perhaps Dee can give us some info here;

I understand that if it is a LE dog that's on your trail..anything you do to that dog..assault, shoot or injury of any kind..the charges will be as if you did it to the officer him/herself.. Is that right Dee ?

Old Fart · « **Reply #53 on:** April 04, 2011, 06:19:08 AM »

I don't know for sure 100% but my son in laws K9 is considered a member of the police department.
He had to be qualified and checked off just like the other officers.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #54 on:** April 04, 2011, 08:28:03 AM »

The state police dogs here are considered officers I have been told.

Shu · « **Reply #55 on:** May 30, 2011, 08:57:02 AM »

In California, police dogs are covered as police officers by penal code.

What I was taught in various military survival schools: You can't fool the dog. Powdered tear gas will only delay them. Do your best to get as far away from the trackers as possible.
You can only mess with the dog so much, it's handler is not stupid and will help the dog.
In a military scenario, escape to friendly lines as fast as possible. You can slow them down but only outright killing the dog will stop it. You could of course wound one or the other if the opportunity arises but it puts you at risk. Leaving your weapon as a trap is not a good option. Once enemy forces know you are armed they won't try to capture you as much as kill you. Depending on scenario you may not want a gun with you. "I'm just a college kid out hiking and got lost". " Yes, I am in the military, no I don't have a gun, I'm a clerk or whatever and got lost". The John Wayne, I am tougher than all 12 of you is just movie stuff.
Your unit will know you are missing and will come looking. Escape, evade and resist but above all survive, return home with honor.

If you are running from law enforcement, lay down put your hands behind your head and comply with the handler's commands. Let them arrest you. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and lawyer up. It beats getting chewed on by the dog and keeps the police from laying lumber on you.

jakeemt · « **Reply #56 on:** July 14, 2011, 06:56:13 PM »

As far as I know traveling a good distance in fairly deep fast moving water is the only way I know to lose a hound on your tail.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #57 on:** July 15, 2011, 03:20:48 AM »

a trail hound, upon finding an animal track only has to smell 2 footprints to know which way the animal went. considering that those tracks were miliseconds apart and the dog can tell their age is to me the most amazing thing in the dog-world.

charles p · « **Reply #58 on:** July 16, 2011, 02:31:45 PM »

An interesting article in the latest Field & Stream about sent. They test sent killing agents against the nose of a German Shepard trained to find people. Nothing could fool him. Read the article.

Dee · « **Reply #59 on:** July 16, 2011, 02:41:50 PM »

Having trained and worked police k-9s for a living, and using them not only to find, and arrest bad guys, but also training "drug dogs", I assure you, that unless you can seal yourself in a vacuum you will not fool the dog most of the time.
If I were personally trying to elude capture and a k-9 were being used, I would simply eliminate the dog. But then again, being a trainer-handler myself, I know that would cause the handler-partner of said dog eliminated to "come forth" with much vigor in righting the wrong.