The holy grail of Handi Projects?

[trotterlg]

I will preface this by saying this is my interpretation of the rules and that I have reached these conclusions after consulting the BATF Seattle Division.  Your local BATF region may have other interpretations of the regulations, please check with them first.

Please read this whole thing before you go further than the first part of the post and get your panties in a bunch and tell me that I will go to jail forever for doing this.

There has always been a great interest in a Handi Pistol here on the boards and other places.  After lots and lots of thought, research and personal consultation with the BATF Seattle Branch I am ready to show the work so far. 

First, this is why it is OK to do this:

You must absolutely start with a gun that was never controlled as a firearm according to the gun control act.  You must start with what is classified as an “antique” firearm, which is what a B.P. Muzzle loader is classified as.  As such, it is not regulated by the gun control act and you may build any weapon that is legal for you to own in your state using its parts.  You may not build it for someone else or for the purpose of sale.  Once it is built it becomes a modern firearm and is subject to all the regulations that apply to them.  You must also build it as a pistol first, if you build it as a rifle then it is a modern rifle and converting it to a pistol would be illegal, so start with a short barrel.  This conversion is like the practice of putting a center fire conversion cylinder in a black powder M.L. revolver, which is a common. 

I began with a Sidekick frame (which was never sold as a modern firearm).  The Sidekick frame is narrower inside than a standard Handi Rifle is, so to enable a  modified H&R C.F. barrel to fit, you must machine out the front of the frame to the proper width. After doing that, you also need to shorten the underlug of the H&R CF barrel and cut a new hinge pin notch in it, there are pictures of the process below.  It also has a fireing pin the size of a modern shotgun pin, not the fat pin of the earlier BP only Huntsman frames.  This is not an easy task for the home hobby shop, but with some thought and a little skill it is within reach of the more advanced hobby machinists.   

Wish I could build more of these, but please don’t ask, I cannot, you must do it your self if you want one.

This project is a 22 Hornet pistol with a 12 inch barrel, I used a commercially available hand grip and a modified H&R forearm for the project.  I have not cut the extractor slot and have not fired it.  I have a 2-7X32 pistol scope for it when it is finished and will Parkerize the barrel after getting it drilled and tapped for the scope base.  I started with a Hornet because it is a nice low pressure round and still useful for varmint hunting, I also happen to have a reamer for it. 

Take a look at the pictures (some are of a Stainless Sidekick which was just too nice to cut up) and I will answer any questions on how to do it that you may have, Again, after talking to my local BATF I am satisfied this OK to do, (I would be kind of stupid to post if I weren’t). If you have questions about this part of it please talk to the BATF personally, they are really a nice bunch of people if you are not a bad guy.  I have more pictures of the barrel mods etc. to follow later. Larry

[moorepower]

Looking good Larry!

[Spanky]

You amaze me Larry... that thing is nice.
Let us know how it shoots.



Spanky

[trotterlg]

Here sre some more pictures of the shortened underlug.  You must fill the cross hole that the ejector/extactor pin goes through because it is at the point for the new hinge pin cut.  I filled it with a short piece of rod and welded it up on both ends, there may be another solution.  Larry

[fye2k]

Could you stub the Huntsman barrel instead?  The underlug work looks a bit more precise than I would like to tackle without a mill.

[trotterlg]

I seriously considered doing that, however the Sidekick underlug is very narrow and doesn't leave much room for a standard type extractor.  You could proably make up a very specific ejector for one however.  I chose to do it this way because I can use a standard Handi ejector shortened and just use a spring to push it out extractor stile.  Larry

[bikerbeans]

 

Nice work!

[gstewart44]

Nice work Larry!   I hope it shoots great for you.   Let us hear a range report. 

My only thoughts about BATF is did you get a written opinion from BATF,  and if not is there a chance the superior or the successor to the agent you spoke to might have a differing, overriding opinion?    My dealings with Gooberment personnel have proven to me that they all certainly have differing opinions about our laws.   

Don't want to see you get caught in the ignorance of Gooberment. 

GS44

[billy_56081]

I'm thinking this is a first at least legally Larry. Hopefully a Larger caliber will follow and then maybe a hunt report.

[trotterlg]

If you carefully read the rules it is very clear what you can and can't do.  Antique rirearms (which a BP muzzel loader is considered) are exempt from the provisions of the gun control act.  As far as the gun control act is concerned the black powder receiver may as well be a lump of coal.  I checked with the BATF just as a matter of a final check, and they have no problem with it at all.  However, this is why you should also check if you are considering it, plus read the law, there is lots of misinformatin out there.  Larry

[Littlepage]

Reminds me of the Rossi Rocket pistol that Rossi planned to made and didn't.  Maybe H&R should start making them.

Great work

[trotterlg]

Did a little more work tonight, when I get the barrel black I think it will look pretty good.  Larry

[dangerranger]

Very Cool! Im always amaised at the things you come up with . DR

[45LCshoooter]

...i guess that means you're limited to .50 cal, as per rules regarding handguns...and there is the strength of the receiver...but is anyone thinking .50 Action Express (or .50 special) howda?

[trotterlg]

The Sidekick is a shortened SB1 frame.  It is slightly modified to make it difficult to fit a CF barrel to it.  It's strength would be that of a SB1 shotgun.  The 22 Hornet is a very conservitive round for this gun.  I would guess that a 357 Max would be a nice fit for this type of pistol.  A 32-20 could also be fun.  Larry

[petemi]

Got a question, Larry.  When this is done, is it still just a lump of coal, and if so, how's the State Police or Sherriff to know that?  Does it need to be registered?  How?  Do you need some documentation from BATF stating it is in fact a lump of coal?

Pete

[trotterlg]

Now that it is a CF Pistol it is considered a modern firearm and subject to all the rules and regulations that apply to them.  This State, (Washington) does not have firearms registration so there is nothing I have to do.  Other states may have different requirements, but here you just need to be concerned about the federal goverment laws.  You do not need any permission from the federal goverment to build a gun that is legal for you to own and you do not have to tell them you built it or get permission before you do it.  I think the firearms laws are quite reasonable in this area.  One other interesting thing I found is that a non resident alien can own and use an Antique gun.  There are lots of fully functional weapons that fall into this catagory.  Larry

[Old Fart]

Very cool, great project. Thanks for sharing it with us. 
Just something else to add to the list of things I can do during a long cold winter. 

[tacklebury]

Here in MI pete, the state police require you to bring your modified firearm in to your local administrator, ie. the place you'd buy your permit to purchase, then you must present it for a safety inspection and you must have a maker mark designed and placed permanently and give it a new serial number of your own devising.  My mark is my initials and I made my first one 0001 to allow for at least a 9999 conversions/creations.  It is illegal to sell the firearm EVER or make one for someone else.  That was my findings anyway.  Also, our local administrator appreciates a heads up that it's being created in the first place and they will often help you along on the steps. 

[trotterlg]

If I lived in your state I would probably do that.  Lucky for us here in the west, with the exception of Kalifornia, things are a lot more layed back.  We have no permit to purchase, no waiting on a long gun or a pistol if you have a CPP (in WA it is called a conciled pistol permit).  It is nice not having to jump througth all the hoops.  But just know the laws you have to deal with.  On another note, this how I handled the extractor, I think you can see how it works.   Larry

[briarpatch]

fine job larry.

[gcrank1]

..........so, just 'howda' ya tink ya r witan idear like dat?
Nice job, hope there arent any troubles come of it.

[S.E.Ak]

What happens if you or family member sell it. Seems to me the buyer could then face charges of haveing a gun he did not build that was now illegal. I know when I built a couple of short barreled shotguns I had to fill out some BATF forms and keep the guns at least one year. When sold the buyer had to get a class 3 five dollar shotgun stamp

[moorepower]

Do not sell it, problem solved! More  pics Larry.

[bikerbeans]

I'm waiting on pics of the targets!

[trotterlg]

As I read the federal law, it says you cannot build it for sale.  It doesn't say you cannot sell it.  I would guess you would have to show you built it without the intention of selling it.  Best to just not sell it I guess.  Here it is finished, I hope to shoot it tomorrow.   Larry

[Swampman]

A Sidekick can legally be converted to a .50 muzzleloading pistol correct?

[tacklebury]

A Sidekick can legally be converted to a .50 muzzleloading pistol correct?

Correct muzzle loading arms can be created for your own use.  Once again, don't sell it.  I guess I should dig deeper as there may be a timeframe when you can, just was told by our officers here that it was permanent, or at least they made it sound that way.    If I find specific law, I'll post it.  

*edit*

Ok I'm not a lawyer or ATF guru, but I believe this section is what the State Police here anyway use as the reasoning that you cannot sell any gun you convert.  Once it is created, you can use it yourself only.  If it is a blackpowder handgun, you can use it on your own property ONLY without taking it in for the safety inspection and marking registration by the authorities.  If it is a firearm, you must take it in for the safety inspection and marking registration EVEN if you will only use it on your land.  According to the state boys here, you must create your permanent mark on the firearm and serial number, by which it is known from that time forth.  In some cases, you may be requested to provide a slug fired into ballistic media for inclusion in the file, although I don't think that is typical.  The only way you can then sell that firearm is if you apply for a FFL and pay the fee for one year.  For regular firearm manufacture, I believe it's at least $50 for the fee, but you also have to get the material and FFL book.  My buddy who used to do gunsmithing said his ran around $500 a year by the time he got everything straight.  So here it is from the ATF Bureau site:

§ 923 Licensing.
(a) No person shall engage in the business
of importing, manufacturing, or dealing
in firearms, or importing or
manufacturing ammunition, until he has
filed an application with and received a
license to do so from the Attorney General.
The application shall be in such form
and contain only that information necessary
to determine eligibility for licensing as
the Attorney General shall by regulation
prescribe and shall include a photograph
and finger-prints of the applicant. Each
applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining
such a license, a separate fee being required
for each place in which the applicant
is to do business, as follows:
(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer—
(A) of destructive devices, ammunition
for destructive devices or armor
piercing ammunition, a fee of
$1,000 per year;
(B) of firearms other than destructive
devices, a fee of $50 per year; or
(C) of ammunition for firearms,
other than ammunition for destructive
devices or armor piercing ammunition,
a fee of $10 per year.

[trotterlg]

I would encourage every one to read the rules them selves.  A muzzel loading gun is classifed as an Antique no matter when it was made.  The gun control act specifically exempts antique firearms from it's rules (or laws).  So things that are in the gun control act do not apply to an antique firearm which is what a Muzzel loader is classified as.  There are some clear examples out there, you can buy a BP revolver, no FFL required, then purchase a Center Fire conversion cylinder for it and have a CF hand gun.  If you do this then you just "built" a modern hand gun and now all the rules that apply to modern hand guns apply to what used to be a BP pistol.  Interesting isn't it?  Larry

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

[tacklebury]

Sorry Larry was editing while you posted that link also.  8( 

Really sweet setup you have now though!  H&R Really should consider making them.