Are Reliability and Accuracy mutually exclusive????

[ButlerFord45]

All I really want is a reliable  DA/SA self loading handgun that that has the capability of at least 2" or smaller groups at 25' out of the box.
I don't feel that I'm being unreasonable.  A 25 yard 2 inch group is far from tack-driving accuracy.  And function reliability is easily acheived aftermarket, but why should we have to go to the aftermarket folks to get a weapon to fire and function the way it was suppose to in the first place.

What I'm looking at right now is a H&K USP 45, there seems to be very little comment about H&K here on this forum, that in itself is somewhat unnerving.  Their "O-Ring" barrels are reportedly quite accurate, but little is mentioned anywhere about the accuracy of the forementioned pistol.

I think I want this pistol, but damn, dropping nearly $800 on a "maybe" is causing me some distress.  I know, ya'll cant make the decision for me, but more information or even opinion might help.

[Mikey]

ButlerFord45:  I would be somewhat unnerved by not hearing a lot about a pistol I was interested in but I think the reason we don't hear too much about those handguns is because they are expensive, big (as in large, I think or at least they seem like they are quite large) and, not too many folks have one to comment on.  Also, I have a question about the "O" ring bbl, and what the "O" ring is made of.  Are these the civilian versions of the SOCOM Pistols??? because if so, they are large.

I would think that if you want a 45 that prints 2" at 25 yds you should look at the Kimbers, Springfields and others that are more modestly priced yet still known for their performance.  I know we have had a lot of gripes form folks who feel the Springfield service stinks but I think more folks have had good service rather than bad.  

Also, I know you specified DA/SA but I would advise one or the other, leaning heavily toward the SA as my preference.  At the absolute most wrong moment you do not need the confusion of figuring out which mode you need to deal with.

Here's an example:  I picked up a Springfield plain jane Gov't Model in 45, tricked it with some Chip McCormick hammer and trigger group parts, an Ed Brown drop-in barrel and it shoots 2" at 25 yds with S&B ball.  I couldn't ask for a better combo.  It still carries the military sights but I can hit with them pretty well beyond that distance - and although I do not like to use the term, it is an eyeball piece - that is, at 25 yds it will drill ya right through the eyeball and at 50 it will do almost as good.  It is the pistol I would choose if I had to make a rescue shot.  

There are other 45s out there that folks like as much as or more than the Springfield but I would recommend one of the 1911 types over the DA/SA types.  HTH.  Mikey.

[ButlerFord45]

 CK, my daughter-in-law has the full size glock in 40S&W, sorry I don't know the numbers, but I bet you know the one I'm talking about.  I shot a couple of magazines through it last week, the way the bottom front of the grip was made caused it to be painful to shoot, made my pinkie HURT and I don't intend to change my grip to accomadate the pistol.  I want a pistol that accommadates my grip.  I believe that they are reliable pistols,  and I'm glad you're getting decent accuracy with yours, but with hers' we were getting a little bigger groups.  The pistols grip and my grip were not compatable so I'm eliminating the Glock from my list.

My Son-in-law has Rugers in both 9mm and 45 and I have plans for trying them this weekend.  My local dealer(Childhood friend  :wink: ) is going to let me try a used H&K in 40 S&W this weekend as well. The only other on my list is a SIG and I don't know anyone who has one  :cry:

Mikey, after the time and effort you put into your post, I almost hate to tell you that I have a Colt Custom stainless Combat Commander that has been tweaked to meet my criteria, but even being a custom job from Colt, it's out of the box performance really PI&&$D ME OFF!!

While I do agree with you about single actions, this is just my project for 2004 and I want the DA/SA, I've never carried anything with a de-cocker before, but I think I like the idea.

The O-ring barrels are on the competition pistols as well as the SOCOM and one other, which is in my understanding, not marketed in the US yet, there is a small blurb about it on the HKPRO web site.  I have no idea what the o-pings are made of, but would guess some type of polymer.

I thank you both for your input, and if you think of anything else, please pass it along!

[Lawdog]

ButlerFord45,

Both of my Glocks will do 2" no sweat.  But my Les Baer Premier II .45 6" will keep them in all the 'X' at 25'.  Lawdog

[TimWieneke]

Of the shooters I know - I have found that those who take the time to become truly accurate have also taken the time to get to know their firearms and have made themselves reliable enough to their guns to operate the gun properly.  They have developed the discipline, presence of mind and muscle memory that makes them accurate and creates an environment for their firearm (a machine) to keep doing the same thing it is meant to do over and over again.  So I don't think shooter "reliability and accuracy" need to be mutually exclusive - it's up to the shooter to put in the work at the range to make him or herself accurate and reliable with his or her firearm.  Kinda like the phrase I heard from Tom Jarrett - he said he's been very lucky, but the more he practices - the luckier he gets.

Tim

[williamlayton]

my sig 220 will do 2"-not with me behind it. some of the younger folks can do it. aw, i guess i could do it if i praticed--but, well i'm probable not gonna do that.
blessings

[Savage]

In my experience, most out of the box handguns are about twice as accurate as the shooter. Group size when fired from a Ransom Rest are about half the size of offhand groups. With any quality pistol you have the right to expect reliable performance right out of the box, with nothing more than routine cleaning and lube. If you don't get it, the manufacturer will make it right! If not dump it!
Savage

[Stan_TheGunNut]

I have a full size HK USP 45, and have several friends who have the SOCOM and compact (in 40 and 45).  I've shot all three of these.  There is also a 'tactical' model available.  It's true, these are realtively large pistols.  If I were to choose one for concealed carry, it would have to be the compact version.  The two compacts that I shot were more accurate than I am.  The same holds true for the full size and SOCOM.  I personally don't think the SOCOM is worht the money (my friend paid 2100 bucks for his), though it does shoot accuarltey, and feels good, very little recoil, but it's also a beast. It's very large.  The tactical version is basically a standard USP with a threaded barrel and I think it has the rubber o-ring, but I'm not sure of it's purpose.  I have the full size USP, no frills pistol.  If I remember correctly, I paid about $700 for it, new.  It also shoots very accuarltely, and I've never had any feeding problems or any reliablitiy issues.

Overall, I think they are very good quality, and I prefer them to GLOCKS.  You can carry them cocked and locked, or saftey on, hammer down.  The safety also serves as a decocker.  Each can also be converted rather easily to DAO, but I prefer single actions, and like the cocked and locked feature.  Hope this helps.  You might also do a serach on HK's and go to their website.

[american]

I don't want to say anything bad, but a friend of mine bought a HK usp 40 cal. He let me shoot the first box through it. If all HK triggers are like pulling trucks, I'll never buy one.

  Just my opinion.

[tas121]

I can only tell you that everything I have heard about H&K's is that they function flawlessly under the most adverse conditions with out fail. I have yet to shoot one. For my job I'am required to carry DA/SA or DAO. I tried Glock, Ruger and S&W and Sig. I own two P226's and Have shot the 220. I have had excellent performance from my 9mm and the .357sig which I carry now. If you were to get a Sig I would put Houge Grip's on it, just my preference. As with most semi-autos regualr cleaning and lubing allow them to function without fail. I have yet to have a malfunction from either gun even after firing 500 plus rounds in one visit to the range. However, If I had My choice I would carry a Kimber CDP .45. Have not Shot one, but, I just recently sold a Stainless Kimber Custom Gold Match that was very accurate. I have also had the pleasure of shooting a kimber Ultra Carry compact .45 and shot much tighter groups consistenly than with either of my P226's. I know you stated that you were looking DA/SA, but you might give a look at the Para-Ordinance LDA .45. They bost a double action only with a single action trigger pull. I have a co-worker that has recently purchased one and allowed me to squeeze the trigger. It was as advertised. I have not shot it, but I have seen him shoot it and it delivered the accuracy you are seeking at 25.

[JohnClif]

Accuracy means many things to many people.  Can you consistently shoot 2" groups at 25 yards?  If you're ever in a gunfight will your life depend upon whether your gun is that intrinsically accurate?  (Nope!)

Reliability is the primary criterion for selecting a defensive handgun.  No matter how accurately it shoots, if it doesn't shoot every time you pull the trigger then it's not reliable enough.  I'll sacrifice accuracy that won't make a difference to reliability any day.  Reliability breeds confidence, and you have to believe that your gun will work otherwise it will be one more thing niggling at your concentration when you need to be thinking about more important issues.

I'll make a bold statement: ANY defensive handgun model (and derivatives, i.e., the G27 versus the G22) on the market today that is sold to LE or military agencies, using US-manufactured new ammunition, is MORE than accurate and reliable enough so that your life will not hang in the balance... IF you can shoot (and most people can't).

I'll make another bold statement: the true test of a marksman is that he can hit with ANY weapon.  I love 1911s and have several very expensive guns from the nation's best builders.  I own Glocks also, and a S&W Sigma in .40, as well as several revolvers in various calibers and sizes from S&W.  If I am ever involved in a gunfight, my living or dying will not depend upon the particular weapon I have with me at the time.  I would be far more afraid of the likes of Clint Smith or Mas Ayoob with an Erma .22 single-action revolver than of your typical street punk with an Uzi.

To prove a point: I had a group of security officers from a large corporation who were qualifying at my indoor range complain about their issue handgun (S&W Sigma 40), and blame their low scores on the gun.  I borrowed a new Level III security holster and belt, and the lowest-scoring officer's gun, dry-fired the gun a time or two on the range, and ran through the qualification with the next string... and scored a 248 out of 250 with a gun I had never fired before in my life.  It's not the gun, and it's not the ammo... the shooter is the weapon and success or failure (living and dying) depend on both skill and attitude rather than your choice of handgun or defensive load.

I'm a big fan of guns that have the same trigger pull from shot to shot, and therefore I'm not a big fan of conventional DA/SA pistols.  I can shoot very well with them, though, but it's one more thing to have to think about and I want a defensive gun that requires as little thought as possible.

So... pick out a gun that feels good to you, with the features you like, made by a quality manufacturer and with a good reputation, and you can't go wrong.

One final challenge: if you can't put five shots into one hole at 15 feet firing slowly and deliberately, then you need some serious work on your shooting.  Remember Cooper: "Owning a gun doesn't make you armed, just as owning a piano doesn't make you a musician."

[williamlayton]

[ButlerFord45]

John, you reserected a thread I thought was long dead with comments that I couldn't argue,  even if I wanted to.  I agree with you completly.  Due to the shooting budget being smaller than anticipated, instead of buying the pistol in question, I bought 5000 primers, 5# of powder, a mould and a lubrisizer.  I'll guess I'll have to rely on practice instead of technology this year!

[Buckskinner]

Butler Ford,

It sounds like you have made a wise decision to practice rather than rely on technology. We all have a persoanl preference on our defense handguns and I am no different, but the contentions that you brought up in your initial post are thought provoking...

Combat accuracy has popularly been held to mean 6 inches at 50 yards on average. I require better than that and I believe that you certainly have the right to do so as well. After spending many hundreds of dollars and hours, on semi-auto pistols for defense both professionally and persoanlly, I landed some time ago on double action revolvers and have been very satisfied in both the accuracy and reliability departments. I accept the trade-offs between the auto and d/a revolver as far as concealed carry goes and I have found that speed to an accurate first shot from the holster, for me, is always faster and more accurate with a d/a revolver. My persoanl standard is 2 inches at 50 yards and will not settle for anything less. A good S&W or Ruger is cost effective and both take an action/trigger job well. My current carry gun is the S&W model 686-7 shot in 2.5 inch and meets the standard if I do my part.

You might want to take a look at "Dave's Guns" and price an HK USP there. His prices are considerably lower than $800.00 if I remember correctly.

[MarkJ_Thompson]

ButlerFord45,

Have you looked at the Para LDA's?

MJT