Author Topic: Conscientious Objector Status  (Read 691 times)

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Offline teamnelson

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Conscientious Objector Status
« on: September 06, 2010, 08:35:34 AM »
Since part of my duties are to screen all requests for CO status, and I've done this 4 times now, I thought I might clear up the mythology passing for truth out there. In order for someone to get CO status they must:
- be opposed to war of any kind, not just the specific battle to which they are about to be sent.
- this conviction must be rooted in a legitimate documented religion or philosophy, not simply a personal relativistic worldview.
- adherence to this worldview must have occurred after they joined, reflecting a change of mind.
- this change must be demonstrable in other areas of their life.

This is the policy set by the DOD. I am not aware of a single CO request that has been approved in the last 5 years. In the case of the Muslim soldier, he was Muslim prior to enlisting, Islam by it's most conservative tenets is not a pacifist religion, therefore this troop would not meet the requirements. He is scared, I've dealt with about a hundred scared young men facing their first combat deployment. They try CO status, suicidal ideation, fake homosexuality, notes from their Mom. Ultimately, over 90% of them go on to serve with honor. The rest wind up disciplinary problems, booted out, and I have doubts they go on to be much in life. My professional theory is that many have been coddled and were hoping the military would make them a man, but when faced with reality, it was too much - they weren't prepared. Ours is the only civilization that expects so little from it's young people, and we reap what we sow.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Consciencious Objector Status
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2010, 08:41:08 AM »
Thanks for clearing that up TN. It is good to get a real perspective on an issue.
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Offline lakota

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Re: Conscientious Objector Status
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2010, 09:02:54 AM »
I just dont understand the point in joining the millitary if you are a conscientiuos objector.

If it is to have an education paid for or to put in one's time and draw a pension then that is a fraud because a CO would never have to do the dirty work of war that everyone else in the millitary is subject to doing.

...Never mind I just reread the original post and picked up something I didnt catch before.
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Offline BBF

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Re: Conscientious Objector Status
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 06:27:17 AM »
...................... Ours is the only civilization that expects so little from it's young people, and we reap what we sow.

It has become that way but was NOT always that way. :(
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Offline scootrd

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Offline Swampman

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Re: Conscientious Objector Status
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 03:34:00 PM »
Alvin York didn't want to go because he thought it was wrong.  Maybe he was right.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline FourBee

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Re: Conscientious Objector Status
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 06:36:49 PM »
Quote
  by lakota:   I just dont understand the point in joining the millitary if you are a conscientiuos objector.

maybe TN can add to this ~ In a early war documentary (WWII , I'm thinking)  CO's were used as Medic's.
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Offline wreckhog

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Re: Conscientious Objector Status
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 07:01:46 PM »
There are a lot of jobs for CO's. My relative, probably the furthest thing from a CO, tried forever to get a combat command position. He was always considered too valuable to go, though the military spent a lot of time training him to do just that. Close to retirement, and with kids, he has sort of lost interest, though he would go in a second if asked.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Conscientious Objector Status
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 10:17:45 PM »
An interesting anomaly - there have been no CO requests from nondeploying units. So anecdotally the impetus to request status is simply impending deployment to combat zone. I have over 3000 folks now actively working in support of the war, many of whom I predict would file for CO if ordered to deploy to combat. So it's proximity to combat, not simple participation that is also a factor. Nothing heroic going on here. A hero in this context would be the guy who regardless of deployability came forward after converting sincerely to JW or Amish and said sorry, I can no longer serve. Not the guy who was content to be in the tooth to tail chain as long as he wasn't the tooth - that's hypocrisy.

Most jobs are noncombat today. I was in infantry with the 4 cases I mentioned. We put them ll in the mail room, 2 went on to be outstanding machinegunners once they got over their fear, and felt the call to defend their friends. Medics are pistol carrying noncombatants expected to defend wounded if necessary. I'm the only one in battle that's an unarmed noncombatant, so I always have a personal security.
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Offline slim rem 7

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Re: Conscientious Objector Status
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2010, 03:23:25 AM »
considering who most of the enemy is this day an time.. i don t think it would be reassuring to me, that one who believed what the muzlims believe was some where behind me with a rifle.. supposedly both of us trying to keep the other alive an support them ,as is normally what i would expect of a fellow soldier...if my son was deployed,id rather he didn t have one behind him.. nope.jmo slim

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Conscientious Objector Status
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2010, 10:38:28 AM »
Probably the military does not keep such stats, but is CO running higher among Christian and atheist troops; or higher among islamics?


..TM7
.

You are correct, I can find no formal stats, but I can speak anecdotally. I have taken Muslims with me on both combat deployments, and spoke extensively with them prior to deployment during our workup combat training. I made it a point to address them individually understanding the unique strain their status would place both on them and their fellow Marines. To a man, all of them stood with their fellow Americans when it mattered, and I think that's the key. Let us not forget also, that there are literally thousands of Iraqi Muslims in uniform fighting alongside of us against other Iraqi and insurgent Muslims, and thousands of Afghani Muslims fighting alongside of us against other Afghani and Talibani Muslims, and thousands of Phillipine, Indonesian, Somali ... to be a Muslim does not mean you cannot take up arms against other Muslims, as long as the cause is just. They are free to exercise their own conscience in determining whether its just.

Of the COs I've screened, none of them had strong faith or religious tradition prior, just vague relativistic convictions with no underpinnings. None of them had converted to a recognizable philosophy or religion since joining. 3 of the 4 came from single family homes, raised by their Mom. All of them joined to prove to the world that they were a man, to serve their country and satisfy a patriotic urge. All of them had been in less than year, had not deployed before, and were vocal during the first couple months of unit training, which is brutal and often a time for hazing. They had all heard horror stories from our one pump chumps - LCpls with stories of shooting women in the face and burying the bodies in the Euphrates - none of which were true, and the tellers had in fact seldom left the wire. This is also the time when dozens will ideate about suicide, file for humanitarian or compassionate transfer or discharge, have emotional breakdowns (one ran out onto a live fire range), claim homosexuality (wise First Sergeants place a phone in front of them and tell them to call their Dad and come out of the closet - nobody made that call). In other words, the reality of what they signed up for has kicked in - it ain't Halo, there's no reset button. That blood you see where you stuck your buddy with an IV, yeah you're going to be seeing a lot of that, probably your own. Ooh Rah, get some.

Everyone is afraid from the salty Gunny with 7 combat tours down to the boot PFC, and the intensity of the training reveals how people deal with it - that's when the CO requests get filed. Its like clockwork.

A 5th one was a sociopath who conscientiously objected to the restraint we would place on him and not allow him to satisfy his homocidal urge. He admitted to me that all his life he wanted to kill someone, but knew he'd go to jail. So he joined the Marines to "get some." When we taught him the law of armed conflict, rules of engagement, and warrior ethics he became disillusioned and requested to see me. He thought it would be like the movies, indiscriminate killing of anyone and everyone, and he was disappointed. We booted him fast.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Conscientious Objector Status
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2010, 02:55:13 PM »
I can tell ya TN that your 5th example is true. It's not a good idea to tell them how much you enjoyed killing in an after action debrief. It went kinda like this "do you feel like taking your own life?" "No".
" Do you feel guilt about what you did?" "No"." Do you feel anxious or depressed about the things you did?" "No, I found it rather exciting and enjoyable to kill."

End of interview.   
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.