Author Topic: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!  (Read 2445 times)

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Offline Lon371

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Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« on: September 07, 2010, 02:15:52 PM »
  I tried to find the adhesives discussed on the site, for glueing scope mount on a Pardoner 20.
I decide on Loctite general purpose @ Wallyworld. Well after scrubbing and marking the barrel and mount. I let her set 36 hours. Package says 24. Has a rating of 3200 psi. Well I guess my 2 3/4" bird shot pushed that pressure ::)
Took her outback and hugged a tree. First shot, thud somthing hit the ground on the otherside of the tree. Yup my scope and mount. So just a heads up Loctite general purpose is not for scope mounts. Now I will try to find someone to drill and tap :-[

Lonny

Offline spikehorn

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 02:22:26 PM »
Any good smith should be able to drill & tap a 20ga I've had two of the done. used weaver #62 Bases
308 win                 45-70                       12ga         
30-30                    223 stainless steel   20ga TDC
44 mag                  Tracker II 20ga        20ga
45-70 Manlicher     20ga USH                28ga
                                                              410ga

Offline hillbill

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 02:25:00 PM »
is the loctite that you used like a glue or the threadlocker type?ive always had good luck useing blue loctite on scope screws but ive never run across a product that would allow yu just to glue on a mount with no screws.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 03:03:02 PM »
Loctite Black Max 380 will work for sights, but I wouldn't use it for a scope mount without at least one screw to act as a recoil lug.

Tim

http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Black-Toughened-Inst-Adh/dp/B000132VKI

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6139/Product/BLACK_MAX_ADHESIVE
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Offline Lon371

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 03:16:33 PM »
 Quick, I read your post sometime back on the black 380. I have made a bunch of calls and checked Wally world and hardware stores here locally. No one carries it. One auto parts store got out there Loctite catalogue and it was not listed. So I just assumed it was no longer produced.

 Wanted to get it drilled and tapped, but around here we dont have any real gunsmiths anymore, or they are staying hidden 8)

Thanks for the links. I will probably go ahead and order some for later. ;)

Just thought I would share, so someone else don't waste their time.

Lonny

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2010, 03:34:36 PM »
I couldn't find any locally either, so I just ordered it, I probably spent more money on gas looking than shipping cost!!  ::)

Tim
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Offline Lon371

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2010, 03:50:46 PM »
 I agree. Long distance phone calls and driving, probably cost more then the price of product  ::)

 Hillbill, I was glueing using a 2 part epoxy. Been done many times by members here, usually on guns smittys have problems drilling or when a smith can not be found.

Lonny

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2010, 03:57:21 PM »
I made a few calls locally, but they didn't know what I was talking about!! :-\

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline stringofpoloponies

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2010, 04:32:07 PM »
when i researched glues for similar projects i found some thumbs up for loctite 620.  its supposed to be twice as strong as black max and better heat rated.  never tried it though. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Loctite-620-Retaining-Compound-High-Temperature/13212588

Offline mrussel

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2010, 07:34:27 PM »
I saw a Loctite product at my local gun store that said it was actually made for guns. Ill get the part number for you when I go there this weekend. The standard loctites for automotive use come in different grades. The red is permenant. Ive put engines and trailers together with that stuff. Its meant not to come off (but will usually with enough torque) If I remember right,the blue is general purpose and the green is for things that you expect to have to remove. It seems to me that something is wrong if the blue Loctite wont hold. I have scopes on guns that hold without any Loctite at all. I plan on getting some,becuase like you I also have had scopes come loose and want the extra insurance. Still,if its falling off like that,I would concentrate on getting so that it holds without the Loctite,then add the Loctite as an extra insurance policy.

 In essence,friction should hold screws in place. The Loctite is just to keep vibration from jarring it loose over a long time. If the loctite is just shearing and coming off then something is experience considerable movement when the rifle fires and nothing short of an arc welder will hold it in place until you get that fixed.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2010, 07:41:49 PM »
It's likely Loctite 380 Black Max.

Tim

Loctite Black Max 380 will work for sights, but I wouldn't use it for a scope mount without at least one screw to act as a recoil lug.

Tim

http://www.amazon.com/Loctite-Black-Toughened-Inst-Adh/dp/B000132VKI

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6139/Product/BLACK_MAX_ADHESIVE
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2010, 06:21:03 AM »
Mrussel, right you are, but he is 'gluing' the rail on without screws. I know its been done, but for me, on anything with a kick to it, I gotta have some 8X40s too! I hate scopes falling/flying about and bouncing off the ground.
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Offline mrussel

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2010, 09:29:30 PM »
Mrussel, right you are, but he is 'gluing' the rail on without screws. I know its been done, but for me, on anything with a kick to it, I gotta have some 8X40s too! I hate scopes falling/flying about and bouncing off the ground.

 Most of the epoxies on the market are just not going to be appropriate for holding a scope on. There ARE adhesives that are used for these sorts of things,but the parts usually need to be the correct geometry as well. I used to work in a plant that made adhesive tape and the first thing they gave me when I started was a textbook on adhesives and told me to read it cover to cover. One of the chapters was on applications and they described how Lotus used adhesives on its aluminum framed cars in many cases replacing most of the bolts and welds in the frame. It was claimed that it not only reduced weight but increased strength because it eliminated the stresses in the metal that holes for bolts or spot welds cause. They used special adhesives with the correct properties to hold aluminum together,and with enough flexibility not to shear under stress,and with the correct expansion coefficients not to expand at a different rate and come loose. They also designed the frame with areas with sufficient surface area to create a strong enough bond. If I tried to take an Chevy Impala,remove all the bolts,drill out the welds and hold the whole thing together with JB Weld,it would be a disaster.

In short,I think you COULD get it to work,but you would need the correct adhesive,that could take quite a bit of heat (my Mosin Nagant last week go so hot shooting 50 rounds rapidly through it that it started SMOKING and the residual cosmolene started bubbling out from underneath the wood over the top of the barrel and sweating out of the stock. The range master actually came over to make sure everything was ok. (The conclusion was,it was fine,becuase back during the "Great Patriotic War" it probably got a lot hotter than that,and in fact,it shows why they added the top piece of wood to the it,as the metal was literally to hot to touch)

My first instinct would be to cut the scope mount to the correct radius and then turn the receiver to get a very good fit. You would want a lip left on the receiver before the opening/ejection port (or whatever you call it) for the scope mount to rest against. In fact you would probably want to make a lip i front too,so it sort of rests snugly in a channel. Then the adhesive would not have to take appreciable shear forces,so long as it had enough flexibility (which it has to maintain with gun oil and heat) so that it could slide slightly forward and rest against the front lip or backwards and rest against the rear. (by slightly were talking thousandths of an inch or less.) If the adhesive is brittle it would just shear off.  The problem is of course,you cant just go turning off lots of metal on a receiver so it would not be appropriate for retrofitting to an old rifle,but instead to a newly manufactured one.

 Somehow though,I dont picture the people who claimed to have successfully glued their scopes on as manufacturing custom receivers made with state of the art adhesives and exacting tolerances,to leverage the power of modern machine tools to create exacting tolerances cheaply and economically,while reducing costs and increasing strength of the gun by eliminating drilled holes and stress points. Instead,I imagine a guy in a "wife-beater" and a baseball cap advertising ether some sort of farm equipment,or a sporting event involving some sort of vehicle with a gigantic engine,either accelerating very fast or pulling something very heavy,smoking a cigarette while slathering on the JB weld with a pop-sickle stick and sticking the scope down while holding it crookedly in place with rubber bands or electrical tape until it cures.  ::) Their claims that "It holds just fine" only mean that the epoxy as not fractured enough and degraded from the heat enough to cause the scope to go flying off and shattering on the concrete at the range. I know there are people that have claimed to do it,but its a huge claim and I have never seen epoxy hold like that and I think,even if its actually done well,and not the huge mess that I envision with the popsicle stick and rubber bands, I really cant imagine it not eventually failing on something that kicks like my NEF 12ga,and if you have a smaller one,then there is easily enough "meat" in the barrel to drill it and tap it for a scope mount. (I understand there is in the 12 too,but you just have to be REALLY good to do it)

 In my other post,I misunderstood what was said. I thought he was using the thread locker and trying to hold the screws in place and it kept vibrating loose. The Loctite product I saw was a thread locker being marketed for scope screws. (I noticed it becuase Ive been using the green thread locker on scope screws,and while it works well,I wondered if there would be any advantage to the stuff made specifically for my application)

 Ive considered soft soldering a mount to mine. There are solders with quite good strengths that melt at very low points. Ive been meaning to run the numbers and see how much sheer force the scope mount will take and see if the solder will hold if done properly. What I was thinking is to get a steel rail with the right diameter and then scrape it in to fit the barrel perfectly. Then I would solder it on. The secret of getting solder jobs to hold is have a optimal fit. It wont hold if there is too much of a gap. Its just like glue,there should be a thin film between the pieces,but if you expect a thick blob of glue,or solder,to hold,your going to be dissapointed as the bulk mechanical properties of both are just not going to be up to the job.

Offline Lon371

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2010, 10:39:58 PM »
  Just for the record. I found a gentleman here on the site that is going to drill and tap my barrel for me ;) Although I will probably use elmers to bed it ;D

Lonny

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2010, 06:16:16 AM »
That is good news, Lon! You will be a lot more confident in it, especially since you had it come off once (you would always be 'waiting' for it to do it again).
MRussel, I for one, am very glad to have someone with your experience and knowledge base on board here!
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
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We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974

Offline mrussel

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2010, 10:34:21 AM »
That is good news, Lon! You will be a lot more confident in it, especially since you had it come off once (you would always be 'waiting' for it to do it again).
MRussel, I for one, am very glad to have someone with your experience and knowledge base on board here!

 Thanks,but your too kind. I wouldn't call myself experienced. That will come in another 20 or 30 years when Im old and grey. Right now,I just have a knack for applying things I learn one place to some other. (That and Ive tried some of these things,like believing the claims of "cold weld" and trying to glue metal parts together and it never worked.) What I have learned is,if you think you have a slick new way to do something,give it a shot if failure isn't going to cause some sort of serious problem. If its important that it work though,do it "right". Sometimes you can spend as much money trying to save money as you would have just spending the money in the first place,and all too often you end up back at square one paying someone to do it anyway.

 Personally,I enjoy tinkering with things and developing the capabilities to do things I could not before,so I will often mess around with stuff that I would be better off paying a pro to do. The down side is,I may well end up spending as much or more money on tools and materials than I would getting it done by the pro. Often times my results are not as good either. It usually takes a few screw ups to get it right. (thats why out the Mosin Nagants I own,I'm going to try putting the scope on the one with the chewed up barrel that you really dont WANT a scope on anyway. So what if it ends up with a few extra holes,and the bolt didn't match anyway,so end up having to replace it for 20 bucks,it still wont match.) Another example is an old 32 that I have. I parkerized it and ended up destroying the slide. I'm not sure what happened but it all but dissolved in the solution. Fortunately,I paid less than 100 bucks for it,with the intention that I would cause great damage to it learning to fix it. Im far from an expert on any of this stuff,I just proceed carefully and slowly and make sure I fully understand what Im doing,the possible pitfalls
  Honestly,the dissolving slide I didnt exactly see coming. I first parked a chunk of scrap metal. It was perfect. I then parked a few bolts. They were fine. I then parked other parts of it and they went fine,so I thought everything was working and then BAM,when I did the slide it etched the surface and actually ate a HOLE in it!. When I fit and replaced the slide (and the good thing is,the old slide was a rattle trap,and the new one was too tight to fit,so I had to fit it,which was both a learning experience and ended up with a nicely fitting slide) I finally worked up the nerve to try it again,and it worked fine. The moral of that story is,proceed carefully,and even then dont proceed at all if your not willing to live with screwing things up royally. Thats why I wont mess around with things like my brand new Super Blackhawk or the 1911 I carry.  (Ok,I trimmed the safetys back to the GI style and reparked them,becuase I was ready to send it in and have them replaced with the GI style anyway,so the worst I could do is mess up a part I was ready to replace) They are just too nice to mess up. I saw a thread by someone on another board,and he was explaining how he put a new front sight on his 1911 and it was about the worst job,scratched up,with an ugly misshapen shim (becuase his dovetail was the wrong size),that I had ever seen,and I wondered why on earth he would show the world. Id keep that in a holster and hope and prey that I didn't have to ever use it becuase,evil mugger or not,its just not right to have someones last sight on this earth be a front sight that was that badly mangled.

Offline gcrank1

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Re: Loctite general purpose, not for scope mount!
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2010, 10:41:26 AM »
My 'Mk I' projects are part of the learning curve too........and the MkIIs are always better. Rarely do I get to the MkIIIs anymore, but now that I said it, sure 'nough, I'll need to.........
"Halt while I adjust my accoutrements!"
      ><   ->
We are only temporary caretakers of the past heading toward an uncertain future
22Mag UV / 22LR  Sportster
357Mag Schuetzen Special
45-70  SS Ultra Hunter with UV cin.lam. wood
12ga. 'Ol' Ugly OverKill', Buck barrel c/w  SpeedStock  and swap 28" x Full bird barrel, 1974