Author Topic: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON  (Read 1401 times)

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Offline williamlayton

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UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« on: September 12, 2010, 01:55:29 AM »
Unions are an oft heated discussion.
It stirs the blood in many---on both sides.
Some sides just get riled because that was what they were told--and don't think.
I like Unions---I see the benefits-----and-----I know that anything taken to its end results can be bad.
FIRST----My opinion.
Unions made the middle class in America.
Big business has proven its trustworthiness by the company store and chits.
Big government has proved itsownself by socialism.
So where does that leave the man that works skilled work---that includes capenters and such---in this quest for a stable life.
Folks I have seen men who worked for less than they were worth because they were one and could not stand against business.
I think it only fair that if Executives have golden parachutes--the working man should organize.
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Offline bilmac

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 02:20:11 AM »
Probably a better view than mine which has mostly been that all unions are pretty much the road to communism. However, the marriage of unions and Democrat politicians is on the verge of destroying the country.

Offline Swampman

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 03:29:26 AM »
According to a story I heard on NPR at the current rate of loss we will have no manuf. jobs left in the US by 2017.  Thank your Unions.....
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Offline drdougrx

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 03:43:49 AM »
It's a shame...the more folks get what they want, the more it corrupts....

Unions protected the common man and did a heck of job in their day....today...I hear union guys complain that they get the short end of the stick and have to pay dues to boot....seems unions are like all big organiztions...they survive to protect those who serve them....their admin....ever see the slaries of some of the top officials???

It's a shame....
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Offline Swampman

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 03:45:09 AM »
Very much like the church.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline wreckhog

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 04:17:40 AM »
According to a story I heard on NPR at the current rate of loss we will have no manuf. jobs left in the US by 2017.  Thank your Unions.....
That would be impossible. Defense contractors, airlines, and automobiles. To some degree, they will be manufactured here 7 years from now. Else they plants to replace them would already be under construction.

Offline magooch

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 04:28:30 AM »
The main thing wrong with unions is that they have in too many cases become a subsidiary of the Dumocrat Party--at least on the "official" level.  The membership level is a very mixed bag in many unions.  The very large unions though, are piggy banks for the socialists.  I mean the Dumocrats.

I was a member of a union for all of my working life and much of that time I was a very active member.  I've never voted for a Dumocrat in my life and I know that at least 40 per cent of our membership was quite conservative.  At times in our local, I'm pretty sure that the leadership was fairly conservative, but most of the time they were card carrying Dumocrats.  Those of us who didn't want the union to be an arm of the Dumocrat Party were often quite successful in stymieing their efforts to open our treasury to the Dems.  We were even successful in banning their efforts to present their politics at our regular meetings.  The majority didn't want to hear their stupid socialist crap.
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Offline powderman

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2010, 04:42:37 AM »
Osama has bought the union vote with all of his give aways, the aflcio has said they support osama and the dems.  POWDERMAN.  >:( >:(
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Offline blind ear

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 05:04:15 AM »
Unions on one side and coorporations on the other. Each has it's own party and the voters have no real say in the outcome. Nothing will get better with the political offerings we have now. The offerings we have politically now won't change until things get a lot worse for the voters and someone steps up with guts enough to talk about changes that can make a difference. eddiegjr
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Offline magooch

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2010, 05:13:03 AM »
Things will change when the union membership realizes that they are they ones who are going to have to pay the cost of all those Obama give aways and when it's time to get theirs, there won't be any left.
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2010, 05:18:42 AM »
I don't think so, the union membership Has no say in what the union bosses do! I paid union dues all my working life. If had it to do over again  I would not pay a dime!
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Offline myronman3

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2010, 05:31:58 AM »
i am a union member.  they do some good, and they do some bad.    like was said, a single worker can not stand alone against management no matter how right he or she may be.   i have been there and experienced that.  
   and the bad?  supporting the democrat party with our dues, but there are ways to stop that from happening.  
    many union members do not vote democratic.   so when i hear limbaugh slamming the evil unions constantly, i have to laugh at him.   right now, most members i know HATE obama, but we also HATE hearing how evil we are.   if the conservatives would just shut up about the 'evil unions', they would be further ahead.  
   you can tell who the thinkers are on this subject, and who lets others do their thinking for them.  i listen to limbaugh every day and while he is right on alot of stuff, on some topics he oversimplifies things and that is where he gets off track.   and when some of you start using his arguements (i.e. letting him do your thinking for you) i spot it instantly.   overall i like the guy and the work that he does.   but i do get so sick of hearing what a sumbitch i am.  

Offline bilmac

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2010, 05:45:26 AM »
Sometimes Rush slows down and explains that he isn't down on the working man union member, he says about the same thing you do 3 Man. And he says about the same thing most on this thread have said, the organizations are corrupt supporters of democrats and they are leading us to socialism as fast as they can.

Offline myronman3

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2010, 06:28:35 AM »
that is true.  but what most listeners take away from it is that anything and everything union is bad.   and that is what irks me.  i am SO tired of hearing about it. 

Online DDZ

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2010, 06:29:14 AM »
   many union members do not vote democratic.    right now, most members i know HATE obama,   

Election-night polling by Peter Hart for the AFL-CIO  showed that 67 percent of union members voted for Obama while only 30 percent chose McCain. (Compare that to the 51 to 47 percent advantage Obama had over McCain in exit polls of non-union voters.) The union advantage was slightly higher in battleground states.

Most dramatically, union membership made a big difference in how well Obama performed. Union members over 65 voted by a 46-point margin for Obama, while all voters over 65 voted for McCain by an 8-point margin. Obama won by 23 points among white non-college graduates who belong to a union, even as he lost by 18 points among all white non-college voters.

Obama lost heavily among gun owners and white weekly churchgoers—except if they were union members. Then they voted for Obama, though by slim margins.

Voters who were among the 2.5 million members of the AFL-CIO’s community affiliate, Working America, voted much the same as union members.

http://www.umwa.org/?q=news/umwa-hails-historic-obama-victory-looks-forward-bright-future-coal-miners-and-all-working-famil

http://www.nea.org/home/11058.htm

I believe if Obama was actually running against a conservative the union vote would have been more overwhelming for Obama.  
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Offline mauser98us

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2010, 07:06:24 AM »
Union member----and I have never voted democrat. Where does that leave me? I think the problem is that wheather Gov't,big business or union,is that after awhile the bureaucracy becomes more important than the task.

Offline Hooker

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2010, 07:22:17 AM »


Unions are just 'groups' of people....just groups of people with a common interest.  Like political parties, fan clubs, militias, citizen action groups, ball teams, gun clubs, golf clubs, yacht clubs


..TM7


.


And which of these on this list are you forced to join and pay money too, just so you can work to feed your family?
Unions were once a protector of the individual but they have long since become as bad or worse than the slave driving corps that they fought against in the beginning. And the working man is still a puppet that must dance to their tune and then is forced to pay the fiddler.

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Offline srussell

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2010, 07:29:26 AM »
most of the members might hate obama but the union bosses still dump   millions into the democrat party with out membership vote. and yes i worked union  when i was not in the army

Offline lakota

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2010, 09:27:00 AM »
I worked for a company that unionized-what a joke. We were promised the world while they were trying to get in. After they were in about the only thing that changed was that management got a whole new set of powers in exchange for granting us the "right" to unionize. The main one was "mandatory overtime" The contract pretty much empowered them to stuff as many extra shifts down your throat as they pleased. They quit hiring after that. Why hire another full time guy and have to pay his benefits when we can just force a current employee to work 120 hours a week?

Also if your job was on the line better hope to god you were in  the good graces of the local officers.

They let my partner go down without so much as a peep. A few weeks later a co worker was in danger of termination in an identical scenario. The kicking and screaming and threatening of legal action from the union was near deafening.

The local officers elected by US didnt really care for my partner but the second guy was a favorite of theirs. So much for impartial representation.
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Offline blind ear

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2010, 12:55:21 PM »

As it is, no one is fighting for the rights of individual citizens. Large concerns are getting represented by our congress and we can't even identify who the large concerns are or what they do. eddiegjr
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An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
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everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
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Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2010, 02:00:07 PM »
Unions= mafia protection racket.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2010, 02:45:21 PM »
HUMMMMM.
Never been a union member---but if I was blue collar worker, selling my skills to the highest bidder, you can bet I would join forces.
I know boys that worked their whole life for Brown & Root--40 years. Never got the wages they deserved for their skills and were let go or dropped at the first sign of a work related disability--they were contract workers.
One, a skilled concrete man never earned $40K in a year and now has only SS because he has no retirement.
NOW, that is his fault--just as was the fault of Coal Miners of years ago. Your right, they made a choice. So, if they make a choice to organize is that not just good business.
We elect the new Mafia to congress.
The problem with polls and political studies is that they never take into account the number that flat do not vote.
The number of people who do not vote are the ones that let this nation turn.
If 100% of the people voted, I would have no gripe at the outcome.
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Offline blind ear

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2010, 02:56:13 PM »
WilliamLayton, If 100% of the  people did vote how would that make the choices any different than they are now? eddiegjr
Oath Keepers: start local
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“It is no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking.” – Ron Paul, End the Fed
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An economic crash like the one of the 1920s is the only thing that will get the US off of the road to Socialism that we are on and give our children a chance at a future with freedom and possibility of economic success.
-
everyone hears but very few see. (I can't see either, I'm not on the corporate board making rules that sound exactly the opposite of what they mean, plus loopholes) ear
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Offline northkid

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2010, 03:14:39 PM »
According to a story I heard on NPR at the current rate of loss we will have no manuf. jobs left in the US by 2017.  Thank your Unions.....
That would be impossible. Defense contractors, airlines, and automobiles. To some degree, they will be manufactured here 7 years from now. Else they plants to replace them would already be under construction.
The unions are pushing jobs to the south (no unions) in the USA and after that they leave the US for cheaper labor.

In 2017 I don't think the US will be the Mfg. capital of the world.

There are more and more Miltary items that are made outside the USA.

US buy ammo from Taiwan
http://defensetech.org/2005/01/11/taiwan-to-supply-u-s-ammo/

Autos are almost made cheap enough overseas to ship here and make big profits.

Offline sk330lc

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2010, 03:23:36 PM »
I come from a Long line of Union working Family members.   I do not work union.  Saying that if it were not for the Unions, I would not be making the wages I am.  Neither would any of you.
What Most People DON'T REALIZE the unions are who fought Tooth, Nail, and Life to set the wages in this country? I have seen the Scares on my Granddads face and arms from the Fights they fought in the 40's with the big Companies.
The problem Now with Unions, they are not for the people like they were in the Day and the people are not for the Unions.  
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Offline The Hermit

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2010, 04:46:04 PM »
Union or not, will not save manufacturing in America.
1. We can not match $1 to $4/hr labor costs from the far east for cheap items made in sweat shops, even with illegal immigrants. Thank you Walmart and Congress.
2. We can not match the superior engineering and modern facilities of countries like Germany, who are tax supportive of their industries with governments that believe in a balanced budget.
3. We force our businesses to the edge with mandatory requirements like Obamacare, cap & trade etc.
4. The tax rate(personal) in NY State has created an exodus out, of businesses investors, thus lowering the availability of business access to capital and a decrease in jobs.
Although the demands of the early unions for fair wages may have contributed to the early demise of some manufacturing, I believe corporate greed did us in. I can still hear Ross Perot's sucking sound of jobs leaving.
We traded our future in the form of treasury bills(debt) to the chinese. As a nation, we borrowed to consume things made by others.
Sorry for the rant guys but it bothers me to see what is happening in America.


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Offline magooch

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2010, 05:18:47 AM »
Probably, the only way that we are going to be able to compete with the likes of China, Singapore, South Korea and who knows where else, is for American workers to work harder and better.  Government has to quit looking for ways to suck the last penny out of business in the form of taxes and regulations.  In general, business has got to strive to make "Made in the USA" mean quality and at the same time, try to keep products as competitive as possible for price.

Obviously, some business still thinks there is a reason to build manufacturing fascilities in this country.  A number of auto manufacturers have plants in the USA and some foreign corporations have bought out American plants.  The company I used to work for was bought out by a Canadian company.

Small business is touted as America's best hope for the future of jobs.  If that is so, there is going to have to be a drastic change in how small business is harassed by government at all levels. 

Finally, unions would almost disappear if employers would treat their employees as if they were their greatest assets.  Employees have to reciprocate and make themselves an asset that the business would not want to lose.
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Offline myronman3

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2010, 05:55:18 AM »
Quote
Finally, unions would almost disappear if employers would treat their employees as if they were their greatest assets.  Employees have to reciprocate and make themselves an asset that the business would not want to lose.
  well stated.

Offline woodchukhntr

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2010, 06:39:45 AM »
Quote
Finally, unions would almost disappear if employers would treat their employees as if they were their greatest assets.  Employees have to reciprocate and make themselves an asset that the business would not want to lose.
  well stated.

That is one of the best statements about the employer/employee relationship that I have ever seen.

Offline MGMorden

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2010, 07:01:48 AM »
Unions aren't very common in the south, so I don't really have a horse in this race, but regarding:

Quote
Folks I have seen men who worked for less than they were worth because they were one and could not stand against business.

Labor is simply a service.  Simple economics teaches us that goods and services follow the laws of supply and demand.  If the man in the above quote really was worth more, then there would have been demand from other employers and he could command a higher price for his services.  If there is no demand, then the reality is you're not getting less than you're WORTH, just less than you want.  The two are not the same.

Now, unions essentially try to cheat the system.  Through collusion they assure that the supply of labor will drop to zero (in which case price climbs skyward) unless certain demands are met.   And for a time, that worked.  Most jobs were production/manufacturing during the early part of the 20th century (computers really skyrocketed the "information economy" where no physical goods are produced).  With international shipping still expensive at that time, often times it was still cheaper to just cave to a union than to import stuff.

In modern times, that has changed.  Efficiency in shipping methods has made international import cheap as dirt (I can get a small package - just ONE - directly from China for less than a dollar - just imagine how cheap bulk shipments are), making outsourcing of manufacturing completely feasible.  At the same time a lot of work has moved digital.  Programming, design work, etc are all skilled professions that produce digital - rather than physical - goods.  These jobs can be done anywhere in the world with the results quickly sent via the Internet to anywhere else in the world in mere milliseconds.  

What we're truly seeing is things balancing out.  Our population density was traditionally low - human labor was worth a bit more as it was rarer.  That only works in a vacuum though (which we more or less had while the rest of the world caught up technologically).  With the entire population of the globe becoming available for work, the market is simply reflecting a simple truth: human labor is worth a LOT less than it previously was.  It sucks, and a lot of people are going to either starve or have to start taking MUCH lower paying jobs, but that's economics for you.

As I once heard, in order for each person on the planet to live to the same standard as the average American does, we'd need THREE planets.  We obviously don't have that, so as the economy becomes more global we're going to see our average standard of living decline (while other people around the world in places like India and China see theirs go up).  It's unavoidable.  Eventually we'll strike some sort of balance, and I'm not sure exactly where that is, but I know that we haven't reached it yet.

In the future we're going to have to offset this with gains in efficiency.  Resources are the only true currency in the world.  The less fuel we burn, the less electricity we use, the less wasteful packaging we employ, the farther we can stretch our resources.  I don't say that as a greenie or an eco-nut, but rather just from a position that wise management of your resources will yield better results than wasteful squandering, be we talking about money or any other resources.