Author Topic: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON  (Read 1412 times)

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Offline nomosendero

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2010, 07:17:44 AM »
Quote
Finally, unions would almost disappear if employers would treat their employees as if they were their greatest assets.  Employees have to reciprocate and make themselves an asset that the business would not want to lose.
  well stated.

That is one of the best statements about the employer/employee relationship that I have ever seen.

I agree, it is a good statement & I know some companies that do just that & bringing in a Union would not do anything positive. However, if a Union is already there, then the above doesn't matter, the Union won't go away just because the Employer & employee could work together.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2010, 07:24:22 AM »
I read that some Chinese factories make their workers work 35 straight hours, no breaks for sleeping.  The come in from the country, work 35 hours, then go home the rest of the week.  They don't work shifts. They don't have a place to stay while working since they have so many people, so the 35 straight hours.  Many of their factories are in multistory buildings to save space.  They put nets around the upper floors to keep people from jumping out to commit suicide while working.  If they can't improve their great communist-socialist working conditions, we don't need to trade with them.  First you can raise tarriffs on their goods, then maybe it would be cheaper to make them here.  They should have minimum workweek laws, child labor laws, and a minimum wage.  Then the factories would probably go to India, or some other third world country. 

Offline myronman3

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2010, 07:54:32 AM »
it is good to finally hear a discussion about problems instead of a total "evil union" thread.  there are some very well thought out responses here.   

Offline MGMorden

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2010, 08:28:21 AM »
First you can raise tarriffs on their goods, then maybe it would be cheaper to make them here.

You can achieve that, but the prices of most goods WILL go up.  The country is addicted to cheap goods.  How long do you think a politician (or particular party) would last in office if they passed legislation that would double to triple the cost of almost everything everyone buys (STILL resulting in an overall drop in standard of living)?

Most of this country (myself included, I'll admit) can't even control their weight when they know it's a health problem.  You're NOT going to convince the masses that it's worth paying that much more for a long term improvement in the economy.  Tariffs and such are trying to put a bandaid on a severed limb.  It's not going to work.  At this point I really don't see any alternative to waiting to see where things settle.  

There's also a strong possibility (as there often is when major social shifts like this occur) that there will be a large war sometime in the future.  Bad as it is to say, those often yield better living conditions for the victors/survivors.  Fewer people to share the resources, and tons of people and industry become employed during the meantime to fuel the war-machine.  You witness sometime similar (not war, but mass population reduction) after the Black Death spread across Europe and Asia in the middle ages.  25-33% of the entire population of those areas was wiped out.  Many people moved around as a result (shaking up the gene pool a bit - too many people in one area often led to inbreeding back in those days - moving leads to generally healthier individuals), and in general there was far more land available per person leading to them incorporation far more meat, vegetables, and fruit into the average person's diet (which prior to the outbreak was almost completely grain).  There are studies that directly relate the Renaissance and the age of exploration to the Black Death.  It's also widely accepted that World War 2 essentially pulled the US out of the Great Depression.   

Not saying that this is necessarily a good thing, just that it's a pattern that has played out before.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2010, 09:43:59 AM »
We used to lower the cost of goods by inovation and invention.  Robotics for one.  I know that sewing is done by hand, and they haven't made robots that can actually sew yet.  Sam with making shoes.  Lots of hand work.  First, the sewing plants left the south to go overseas.  They still made the cloth here, then shipped it overseas to sew.  Most cloth making is fairly automated now.  Then the whole plants moved overseas with the automation.  I remember in the 1980s when they replaces a lot of the old looms making cloth in a local plant.  They used 35-40 workers in the weave room per shift, then they automated it and only used about 8 workers per shift for 20-25 years.  Now they have moved this overseas.  Union wasn't involved.  Lots of $10-25 per hour jobs gone.  Many poor workers lost their jobs.  Lots of worker families had both father and mother working in the plants. 

Offline gypsyman

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2010, 10:39:21 AM »
I've seen both good and bad with unions. One worker would have lost his job because the company accused him of stealing. He wasn't, and kept his job. On the other hand, how many workers abuse their time, by not working, or just doing a bad job, and the union has to back them up. Ya really can't throw a blanket around all involved with a union. I know if I had a job that involved a union, there would be hell to pay, if my union dues sent the big shots to Vegas or Atlantic City for a ''meeting''. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2010, 11:17:43 AM »
It's a shame...the more folks get what they want, the more it corrupts....

Unions protected the common man and did a heck of job in their day....today...I hear union guys complain that they get the short end of the stick and have to pay dues to boot....seems unions are like all big organiztions...they survive to protect those who serve them....their admin....ever see the slaries of some of the top officials???

It's a shame....
If you look at the UPS strik of 95/ 96 it was about the Union getting it's hands on the UPS drivers pension fund.  So they can take 20% off the top for managing it.  When UPS managed it they took nothing.  The $.50 and hour raise the drivers recieved took them till 2003 for them to break even from the losses due to the strike.
I think the unions were needed at one point.
Now all they do is cost more, retard productivity, kill innovation, and induviduals drive to do a good job.
Why stand out and do a good job to get promoted when you are only going to make what the Union says you are based on the number of years in the Union you have.
When I was grinding Fiber glass I was paid by DUDE time.  My boss looked at me and would say this boat will take Dude, the other guy I worked with, a Day to do.  I would knock it out in 2-3 Hours and while we were both paid 7.5 an hour I was bringing home 3-4 times as much a week because I would bust my butt getting the jobs done.  Dude would yell at me for working, wearing protective clothing, and not taking a 10 Minute break every hour that he took on the hour.  Not to mention the 1/2 Before quitting time clean up so he was done and leaving at the end of the day.
I did my clean up after hours and it never took me 1/2 an hour to coil the hoses, cords and put away the tools.
Unions have killed the individual spirit, collective bargining kill production, and kills innovation and just adds costs.
Ever wonder why there is still a fireman in a Diesel - Electric locamotive?  Union.  We have to pay for a third guy that is not needed in an engine on a train because of the Union. 
I did a show in Chiacgo a while a go and I needed 4 Unions to get my ooth set up.  Teamsters, Riggers, Carpenters, and Electricians.
The Teamsters moved the crates, the carpenters and riggers opened the crates, the carpenter set up the back drop and the electricians plugged everything into the outlets.  I can understand about the Teamsters moving things and driving the fork lifts.  I almost can understand the riggers placing the heavy equipment (Boilers in my case) into the booth.  Maybe even the carpenters to uncrate the equipment so the crate will go back together again.
But I did not need a skilled carpenter to set up my back drop.  (I had to set it up to show him then take it down, and repack it, so he could un pack it, and set it and its twin up in the booth.) and I really did not need and electrician to plug in my lights and lap top.  I needed to get him every morning to plug in my lap top I took with me to the hotel, because I took the charger with me.  Three days of 1 hours labor for an electrician to plug in my lap top.
Anyone want to guess what that bill was?  That adds to the cost of my boilers.  Really small but I will not bring displays with me for another show in Chiacgo.  I will bring pop up displays and just have the carpenter costs and use a DVD in a flat screen to show products. 

Offline williamlayton

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2010, 12:48:52 PM »
Some good thoughts here.
Let's look at the source of Unions and why.
Big business was not aware or even cared about this source of workers they abused in many ways.
It took unions and work strikes to bring these businesses around to paying fair wages that would allow families to survive.
As far as  foreighn products are concerned---this is one area that I think the Federal gov. should be in charge of. Tariffs would/will protect American business.
In the interest of economy, we should do what is necessary to protect american business---these measures would in turn protect the american worker--and that in turn makes for a better economy.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Range Rider

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2010, 01:11:21 PM »
Well unions or mangement.  The fact is which ever way you fall the US government is a problem.  If a union man gets a good wage he well lose it to taxes.  When the corporation makes a buck they are demonized and taxed out business.  Americans stand by and watch companies leave or shores.  I don't think we should blame unions or management for these loses.  The left wing in this country has done well in splitting the nation with class warfare.  Its true unions support the Dems.  But its also true that Wall Street supported Obama by 73% over McGore of Az.  Yes, of course no one won on that one.  The high taxes have takin us out of the running on the off shore markets.  The good old Yankee Dollar used to be the most sought after in the world.  The dollar due to taxes and job losses and government spending has devalued that once most sought after Yankee Dollar.  Who is to blame?  Not working or investing Americans.  The government that taxes success and spends without guilt.
Range Rider

Online DDZ

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2010, 01:16:21 PM »
Good post MC, and you are exactly right. Especially the part about unions hindering productivity, innovation, and no incentive to do a better job. Some guys just figure, why should I bust my butt. The union will protect me, and I'll make the same money as the guy I'm working beside, that is busting his butt.

How can some companies compete when you have to have an electrician to change light bulbs? Or you have to have a carpenter to saw a 2x4 in half.

 Decades ago the typical union member worked in the private sector, often in a very physically demanding job. He would strike to get higher pay or better working conditions. Today half of all union members work for the government. The typical union member nowadays is a local government worker, lobbying city hall to raise taxes so the city can pay him more. Rather than striking against difficult working conditions, modern unions fight for more government because they are the government, drifting even farther from labor's initial goal of improving the life of working Americans. Unions today are not the unions of the past. Just stand back and look at what they really represent. I really don't want any part of them, and if the union disappeared at my work location, I would say good riddance.  The reason private sector unions are dying, is because of what they have become.
Of coarse if you are a government employee that is unionized, where you can just hold the tax payers hostage for higher wages. Unions are the greatest!  
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Offline briarpatch

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2010, 02:34:23 PM »
My Patriot Group (tea party)" in central Florida was asked to help and march for the unions at NASA to try and change the clowns mind and about shutting down a lot of the space program and giving it to russia. Many lost there jobs and many more are on schedule to lose theirs.
Now who do you think wanted this parasite in the WH to begin with? Who do you think did a lot of campaining for (it).
The membership is led, in the unions today by a bunch that are as callous and uncaring as any old company bosses in the day.
If you vote a union out will they leave or will they take you to court and some federal judge say it is unconstitutional to throw them out? just wondering.
Worked with a guy that had a great distain for unions. He worked at the cape and was union. As he explained it they would do nothing for them and catered to the company. The workers got togeather and voted the union out but they refused to leave and he said continued as always with the companys blessing.  His story not mine.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2010, 02:46:33 PM »
Some good thoughts here.
Let's look at the source of Unions and why.
Big business was not aware or even cared about this source of workers they abused in many ways.
It took unions and work strikes to bring these businesses around to paying fair wages that would allow families to survive.
As far as  foreighn products are concerned---this is one area that I think the Federal gov. should be in charge of. Tariffs would/will protect American business.
In the interest of economy, we should do what is necessary to protect american business---these measures would in turn protect the american worker--and that in turn makes for a better economy.
Blessings
When the Economy is good wages raise.  Workers are scarce, benefits and wages go up to get people to work for them.
Also people with capital take a risk in building new business, and create jobs.  They see oppertunity in creating the better mouse trap and need people to make, sell, and service that item.  They invest in this new company thinking it will be a better return on their time and money than what they are doing now (oppertunity cost)
When the Economy is bad wages go down. In the case of horrid conditions during the industrial revolution and people migrated to cities looking for work the number of workers were greater than the jobs available and you have a who will work for less compititionthat drove wages lower, and to make a living long hours were needed.  I am not saying that Unions were not needed, I just think they have gone too far, much like congress.
The Unions go after more and more driving up the cost of the good made, delivered, or service and that mean less and less of that product wanted.
Congress gets ellected to make laws and some of these morons, that know nothing of different industries think they are an expert and write laws and regulations controlling the business.
This is why our economy is Down now.  Too many rules, too many taxes, fees, fines, and regulations to follow.
William, I find it funny that you demonize big business.  When it is those companies that provide jobs to most unions and those unions have become parasites on big business.  There was in the 40's and 50's a symbiotic relationship between labor, managment, government, and Capital.
But government and labor have become parasites on Capital.  With The government demanding more and more in the form of Taxes and Labor wanting more and more of the profits that they feel they should be part of but are not willing to risk capital or share in the costs.  The small minded try to play one group against another.  Look at Obama saying Big Insurance, Big health care, and the Millions and Millions in "profits"  When in fact it is not huge profits.  They are lookig at how much comes in pre tax, and 2-3% of that is profit.  When you are talking Billions and Billions of Dollars paid in and only millions as profit that does not sound too bad.  Of that 2-3% taxes are double paid on them.  Once as profits of the company and again as the shareholders take those profits.  Not to mention all the hidden taxes for the workers.  For every $ that are taken out of your pay check the company has to double it ot the government.  At some point the cost of Labor, taxes out weight the return on Capital and either the company looks to change technoligy as in Robots, change costs in the forms of labor or raw materials, or close and move the factory off shore.
Unfortunatly Unions, Government and the Enviromental whack jobs are moving more and more jobs out of the country.
Creating fewer and fewer jobs for those same Unions, and taxes for the government,  that will suck a company dry if given 1/2 a chance.
The Unions are not about the worker they are about the Union and will do what they can to protect the Union.
The Teamsters tried to Unionize our plant 10 years ago.  I found it strange that they Union was allowed to lie to the workers but Managment was not allowed to talk to the workers.  When most of the people in our plant looked at it they would loose pay and benefits if they went to the Union and voted it down.  I still do not undestand what the Teamsters has to do with building Boilers and why they wanted to have other than drivers in their union.  Other than being able to get thier hands on the Pension and 401K funds and skim 20% managment fee off the top.  Giving the Union managment $ and taking from the workers in Dues and fees.
At one company BBQ the President was handing out attendance bonus to the guys on the line.
One guy had not been absent for 20 years.  The line managers had to go find him at his work station to get his $5,500 in cash and two additional week vacation voucher.  When he showed up he said "thanks ,can I go back to work? I'm backed up"  He has a dedication to his job, wants to do a good job and serve the customers, the company tried to promote him a few times but he turned it down as he was doing what he liked doing at the plant.  He was a motivated person and that was rewarded.  If the plant was union he would have been scoffed at for making the others look bad.  Others would have wanted 80 or 90% of the bonus for showing up that percentage.  Or the worst part of collectiveism, everybody should have gotten a bonus for doing what is average.  Cream will rise sludge will settle.  Unions treat the two alike, So why be cream when you get the paid the same to be sludge?

Offline williamlayton

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2010, 04:08:26 PM »
MC
I don't demonize big business.
They will get you as cheap as they can---good business.
Organized labor has numbers to help and create a better workforce and pay.
Why is competition not good.
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TEXAS, by GOD

Offline MGMorden

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2010, 04:26:21 PM »
Why is competition not good.

It's very good, but you have to understand, it's a double-edged sword.  Competition between businesses drives down prices to the consumer.   We see it in the market all the time.

However, with jobs/labor, your services are the product and the companies are the consumer.  Right now we're competing with foreign labor, and that will drive the prices down. 

With regards to:
Quote
Organized labor has numbers to help and create a better workforce and pay.

I don't really care there, but it's a system that DOES NOT WORK if you can't get everyone on board.  When the labor pool was localized, that was still possible.  Unions worked.  That labor pool hasn't been localized in decades though.  The negotiating tactic of the Union lost it's teeth because if they won't work companies will simply move their production overseas.  Now, MOST of these companies will pay a bit more for American labor.  Not only does local production save shipping costs, but I believe that the quality of work is a little better too.  The thing is, companies really thing just like us.  If most of us go to the store and a well-built American product costs $7 while a cheaper Chinese version costs $5, we'll pick American.  HOWEVER, if we go to the store and the well-built American version costs $50 while the cheaper Chinese version still costs only $5, then we typically pick the Chinese version and if it breaks a little sooner oh well. 

Same thing with the companies.  Americans are worth more, but not Americans at union wages.  Americans are once again going to have to compete, and that sadly does mean drop in the standard of living.  That's unavoidable though.  We have a lower population density so we WILL have a better standard of living than the Chinese or India for example (as I said, resources are the only true currency, and we have more per person), but the truth is for a long time we have been essentially buying up cheap Chinese goods with money that our parents and grandparents inflated.  We've been living above our means on cheap imports.  If we had had to produce stuff internally for ourselves, our money wouldn't have bought nearly as much stuff as it was buying in imports.

So that's the reality of the situation.  We either turn internally, shut off the imports, and accept that the price of American labor is higher and so we all have to take a small hit in our purchasing power, or we continue the status quo, more labor goes overseas, our currency deflates, and we still loose purchasing power.  Either path we choose, we're going to come down a few notches. 

That's not necessarily the end of the world though.  I've got 7 computers in my house, 3 TV's, 2 cars, 40+ guns, 4 guitars, and countless other duplicated items because lets face it, variety is the spice of life.  When it comes down to it though, I know that I could probably make it with only 1 of most of those items if push came to shove, and I doubt it would really affect my happiness THAT much.  In the coming days I really see us returning to an era of quality of quantity.  Instead of dozens of mediocre quality guns, we'll have a few really well made ones because they need to last.  Rather than 4 guitars of ok-ish quality I'd get 1 really good one that will last me.  Things to have scale back, but that doesn't mean the end of the world.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2010, 01:22:12 PM »
Why would you not expect the labor force not understand why they have to take a pay cut and management gets a pay raise?
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2010, 02:09:05 PM »
Why would you not expect the labor force not understand why they have to take a pay cut and management gets a pay raise?

Management isn't the area where there's heavier competition.  Labor is where the competition is.  Management is still typically based state-side. 

Remember, capitalism isn't about what's fair.  It's about letting the market set the price.  Post-WWII when it came to physical labor, we were in a seller's market.  Now we're in a buyer's market.   The companies hiring labor have the upper hand.  They won't pay union wages unless it makes business sense to do so, and if your laborer's want significantly more than an overseas counterpart, then the smart business will outsource/move production.

As I said, it might not be fair, and it might not even be ethical, but business rarely is. 

Trust me, for my job I'm not competition against Chinese factory workers, but I am most assuredly competing against Indian telecommuters.  12 years ago during the dot-com boom I could have pulled 3x my current salary.  Not only has the demand dropped some, but the reality is a company can hire competent IT workers from India to do their support.  Now, the fact that they're off-site and in a different time zone is a negative, and the communication barrier makes things difficult too, so US-based workers are still worth more, but you can't expect the same salaries now as you used to, as while a US worker might be worth a 50% cost increase over Indian, they're certainly not worth a 300% cost increase.  It sucks, but that's life.

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2010, 06:21:55 PM »
I'm not a union supporter! Oh yea and Limbaugh didn't tell me to say that!

Unions at one time saved workers from abuse and probably still do but who saves small business from Union abuse. My biggest problem is like everything else, corruption! Auto workers making grossly inflated pay and gov. workers getting benefits till they die. It just ain't sustainable.  An old city could be supporting 10% of the population while only 5 % are working for the city. (just and example)

I heard an old Jerry Clower album today. He was asked what would he do if he were to be elected President. He said, " I would ask and beg the people to love each other and I would try to stop pitting the working classes against each other. I was born poor as dirt but I have made a good living in the Entertainment business. Now President Clinton hates me. I'm the same poor guy I was before, simple, but well fed now, but President Clinton thinks I'm the problem with the Economy now!  He says I hate poor people and they should hate me too!"

Seems Politicians make a living pitting one class of people against one another. 

Personally I like living in a right to work state. Work union if ya wanna just dont complain if I dont. But then that doesn't make it unanimous does it?   ::)   
 
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Offline SM Bob

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2010, 10:22:26 PM »
I have worked in manufacturing most of my life. I have never been in the union. Never wanted to and never cared for them. My philosophy has always been that if you aren't happy with the pay and benefits a employer gives you, the working conditions, or the people that you work with then it is up to you to do something about it. Not the employer and not some union.
You aren't happy with the low pay and/or lack of benefits your current employer is giving you? Then get a job with a better company. It might even involve pulling up steaks and moving you and your family elsewhere. I have had to do
this before. That's why I put wheels on the bottom of my tool box. You might have to go back to school and get more education in order to get hired by a better company. I have had to do this as well. I'd hate to think what my life would be like if I sat around waiting for some employer or some union to take care of me and my family. It's up to me. Not them. I have worked with all kinds of people. Many good some really bad. If someone got on my nerves bad enough at a place I worked, then I found another job. Several years back the local grocery workers union went on strike. Their
union demanded more pay and wanted the employers to pick up more of the cost of their health insurance. I thought
"Are you kidding me?" Some person that puts groceries in a sack and rounds up carts in the parking lot is just insulted
that he or she is only making $13 an hour with better health insurance than most people? Then maybe they need to get a different job. In my mind that is just a temporary job until you move on to something better. Nothing more. I found it hard to have any sympathy for them. It's ridiculous. I have worked at some companies that I reached a dead end with. No more money and no more chance for advancement for the position that I held. Guess what. I did what I had to to move on to something else. Hey, life in the workplace isn't easy sometimes. I have been laid off, caught on the wrong side of corporate downsizing, had my job eliminated, been transferred, worked for companies that were sold to new owners and everything changed for the worse, you name it. People out there can decide your fate in the workplace in a micro second, and that includes employers and unions. I have had friends that were in various unions and found that their jobs were no more secure than mine was. Sometimes even less secure. Nobody ever said life was easy. That's
just the way it is.

                                           Robert

Offline williamlayton

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2010, 01:01:55 AM »
Fair !!??
I am not really a person that expects fairness.
I demand fairness of myownself. Hard for me think that most folks do that. Trust everyone but cut the cards.
Competition is not fair--for a variety of reasons.
I like a level playing field---don't expect it.
Since we have admitted it is not a level playing field and fair is just a word---does this not justify Unions.
Idividuality?? Well that will get you a life-time of Stake pulling and moving. That said--that is up to the individual.
Life is not fair-- at best it is a bitch and then you die.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Old Fart

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2010, 03:59:02 AM »
........ and then you die.

This right here.
You get one chance at life.
Don't screw it up.
"All my life I've had a bad case of the Fred's. Fredrick Vanderbilt taste on a Fred Sanford budget." CR
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Offline bilmac

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Re: UNIONS--AND THE BEAT GOES ON
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2010, 05:36:31 PM »
Very well said SM Bob