National Park Service Rangers, out of control

[Dixie Dude]

Yes, Tuskegee National Forest near where I live said they were going to hire an armed "police ranger" to arrest hunters or others violating state game laws etc.  They said it took too long for a game warden to get there if they need him. 

[Sourdough]

Went to an outdoor show today in Fairbanks.  BLM had a booth manned by BLM personnel.  A friend and I stopped by the booth and commented that the NPS had goven them all a Black Eye last week.  The guys got hot, not at us but about the NPS Rangers that had done the dirty deed.  One of the BLM guys said he knows the Rangers and that both of them need to be knocked down a few notches.  The two Rangers in question according to these guys are not well liked with many of the NPS personnel.  I told them, it does not matter, these two guys are what the public see and have to interact with, so they are going to be your poster boys till someone clips their wings or they are gotten rid of.

[Dand]

Thanks for getting this post going Roger and I hope you keep us up on developments. First I read about it was in the newspaper where Sen Murkowski was speaking out about it. Sounds like a strange thing to me. I used to stop at many many boats mid river but not on water as big on the Yukon and never when safety might be at stake. I was just interviewing fishermen for their activities, tho I did some enforcement but I wasn't armed. There's a real art to doing this stuff and sometimes guys would tell me it was a bad time (snarled line, grumpy clients, squabbling kids) so I'd come back or stop by camp when it was better to talk. I also knew the bottoms of drifts where it was less disruptive to talk to fishermen and guides or we'd work out a system.

But Roger, down here in Bristol Bay the Troopers do check for floatation or life vests and have cited a few skippers for not having them aboard or on a kid. I think they check for registration stickers, especially the guide boats but I haven't been really checked for all my safety gear etc. But I wouldn't say they Never check. I think they hand out registration forms in the villages and to some boaters. But they've always been real polite about it.

As far as officers getting heavy handed - it seems to happen to a lot of them now and then but of course there are always of few of the power drunk ones. But it seems if they are presented with an unusual situation even some of the best may get a little pushy.  A very close trooper friend of mine once arrested a reporter for taking pictures of a crashed plane  - I warned him he was way out of line that the reporter was doing nothing wrong and he ignored me - the Mark Air folks were asking for the arrest. Anyway the arrest was thrown out in court and the trooper got a pretty stern talkin' to for that one. I think in the confusion of the event my buddy was too easily steered by others of apparent authority. (oh no serious injuries to people but the jet lost an engine on the runway.)

I'm a bit curious about the feds and their increasing enforcement stuff. I just learned that one of our Refuges (USFWS) has hired a and I quote "Park Ranger". I didn't want to distract from the main point of the meeting but I need to follow that up and find out how the USFWS Refuge has a position called Park Ranger.  I don't want them getting confused as to the nature of the refuge and slowly consider it a park.  Some of them need to be reminded of that now and then already.

I do know they ship some of their enforcement folks all over the country for training and special duties - at HUGE expense. One guy I know pretty well and I think he has a pretty clear view of right and wrong, what is sufficient for Govt activity and what's not.  I know he's admitted to me that he sees waste and excess and I believe he does his best to stop that stuff - but not all are so skeptical or clear thinking.

And yes I was told this week that some of this jurisdiction stuff is finally in court but who knows when it will get sorted out.

Keep us posted - this could have been worse if the rangers had escalated. Still its crazy, I can imagine a scenario: An older guy and passengers in the river channel, engine(s) running, maybe breezy or choppy, not expecting or used to being "pulled over", possibly hard of hearing and /or situation makes it hard to hear, plenty of confusion - which automatically would make everybody more edgy. I sure feel for the citizens in this one - it doesn't sound good to me. I hope those Parkies get a talking too at minimum; get some lessons in manners and better ways to approach people.  Maybe a review of where they really have jurisdiction.

I see in the Anchorage Daily News today where the State is paying a bunch of money to a family of a disabled man who was killed by a over reactive trooper back in 2007 - that was an ugly one once the facts came out. I'm still a bit confused why they didn't have some sort of reprimand for that trooper - stinks to me.

[Sourdough]

Dand:  I discussed it yesterday with one of our local Legaslators.  She was real upset about the entire situation.  You mentioned conditions on the river.  We have been having some of the worst winds, and conditions on the river that day would have been rough.  The area near Woodchopper is wide and the mountains channel the wind right down the river.  It's an area where a little wind will push your baot upstream(been there done that) so just imagine what a big wind would do. 

The thing that really bother us is the unprovoked attack on an old man.  Throwing down and rolling him around in the mud before handcuffing him.  Then driving his 73 yr old wife up to the Cabin at Woodchopper and leaving her and a friend there with no means of leaving for three days.  All this took place on Friday, his wife and friend sat in the cabin till monday when Jim was arraigned and he had a chance to talk to his attourney and get word to friends to go get his wife.  Why could the Park Gestapo at least not have brought them to Circle where their vehicle was, so they could have gone home.

Right now there is a bit of confussion as to wheather the Parkies had jurisdiction out on the river anyway.  The BLM guys I talked to said "NO" they do not have jurisdiction out on the water. 

In an unrelated incident a friend has a cabin down one of the "Wild and Scenic Rivers".  No motorized vehicles allowed within 1/2 mile of the river, and no outboards motors larger than 15hp.  My friend has been using his cabin for decades before the designation was made by BLM.  Anyway a couple of weeks ago my friend used a track vehicle to tow his 20ft boat down to the river.  BLM personnel came down to the river and started yelling about how he was breaking the law.  That the vehicle was not allowed to the river bank, and the motor on the boat was too big.  My friend kept saying "The river is state property you have no jurisdiction there so site me".  The BLM people would not do anything.  BLM called the Troopers.  The Trooper told the BLM people that's federal we don't enforce that, you site him.  My friend left the landing with his boat, and his son took the track rig back home.

[Pat/Rick]

It IS all about CONTROL! The feds are obviously escelating their stance IMO. If they find hunters guilty of weapons charges they can disarm America that way.The jury won't know any better. Easier but longer than outright taking our arms away,Probably alot neater as well.

I may sound like a broken record about exercising our RIGHTS to Jury Nullification, but I believe it is the only way that we the people will regain control of our country and its Constitution.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/arnet82.html

This is from backwoods Home magazine website and one of a few on our broken judicial system. They are good folks, do not let their libertarian slant scare you away, its seeming more like a good idea anyway. They have alot of good subjects there. Look on the left column. Massad Ayoob also writes many good articles for them.

[Sourdough]

I just sent a letter to the editor about this incident.  It follows.

Is Parnell Another Knowles

This latest incident where the Nat Park Service Gestapo’s have over stepped their bounds and roughed up an old man, then stranded his wife in a cabin in the wilderness for three days is beyond belief.  Why is our Governor not speaking out on this incident?  The man was on the river, owned by the State of Alaska.  Jim Wilde was not in the Yukon/Charley Preserve.  Once before, Governor Parnell backed down when confronted by the Park Service.   We now have a chance to see how he governs the state before the upcoming election.  Will he stand up for Alaska and Alaskans or will he be like Tony Knowles and back down from the Park Service.

Roggie L Hunter

[SHOOTALL]

The other side of the story is admited lack of respect for the law. ( 7 boats not reg. ) with this type of disrespect for the laws maybe its understandable the feds get involved. Consider that failure of states to raise enough money to adim. the boating issures will result in fed money being provided to fill the gap. If citizens don't set the example and follow good laws that do have a good purpose then why not expect the fed's to not get involved. Best not to give them an in.

[beerbelly]

Man you have got to be a cop to have that attitude!
                         Beerbelly

[gypsyman]

Claude Dallas put the rangers on a short leash in Idaho a few years ago. Surprised it hasn't happened in Alaska yet.  gypsyman

[SHOOTALL]

Man you have got to be a cop to have that attitude!
                         Beerbelly

Nope just someone who respects the laws of the land ! Didn't say i agreeded with them . But as long as we can change bad ones thru. votes then failure to comply is selfish.

[Sourdough]

Shootall:  The boat registration thing is new here in ALaska.  The state claims they need to register the boats, the people say they don't.  The only reason the state implimentated the boat registration was that it came down as a Federal Mandate.  The state should have stood up and said "NO"A lot of people out in the bush either have not heard of it, or are not concerned since there is no place to register a boat out there anyway.   A lot of people refuse to register as a form of civil disobediance.  I am one.

As for the state doing inspections, maybe they do down along the coast, but here in the interior it's the troopers that have that responsiability and they just walk on by.  Now if they see a kid in a boat without a life jacket, that's a differant story, and they will pounce.  Alaskans are independent, we feel no one has the right to tell us how to run our lives.  I don't need someone inspecting my boat to tell me it is safe to operate.  Since my life depends on it, I am the one who should be making that decission.  We do a lot of thing with boats that people from the lower 48 would cring about.  

Gotta relate this story:  About six years ago a friend dropped his plane on a gravel bar due to engine problems.  Not able to get back off and winter approaching he knew he was in a pickle.  I came up the river with My boat, An 18ft John Boat with twin 50s.  My friend flagged me down and asked for help.  The plane was an experimental called a KIT FOX.  We unloaded all my supplies and took the wings off the plane.  We rolled it off the bank tail first, and onto the front of the boat.  The landing gear was too wide so we had to lash some poles to the struts for them to sit on.  The fuselage came back and hung off the rear of the boat.  When we got it settled, we had a heck of a time getting the boat off the bank.  Once out in the water I only had about two inches of freeboard.  I eased into the throttles and we started taking on water in the back.  I shoved the throttles forward and we climbed up on step.  I knew onc up on step there was no coming down, we would take on water and sink, boat was a bit overloaded.  Crossed the Tanana and up into the Chena, then found a gravel bar just up stream of the landing.  Water was only about a foot deep so when I backed off the throttles she settled to the bottom and wthere was not enough water to sink us.  We unloaded the plane and the boat floated to the landing and the trailer.  We went back and got the wings after freezeup.

Ya do what ya gotta do.

[charles p]

While in the Coast Guard, I boarded many boats without actually stepping aboard.  The items the Rangers needed to see can be displayed easily without coming aboard.  I suspect there is more to this story that we are privy to at this time.  And for the record, if a fire extinguisher is required, it is not a casual item that is unemportant.

[Pat/Rick]

WE can change the laws!! Exercise the RIGHT of Jury Nullification!! Not Guilty verdicts on bogus laws will get them overruled and thrown out! Not Guilty verdicts on oppressive laws will get them changed!

[SHOOTALL]

Shootall:  The boat registration thing is new here in ALaska.  The state claims they need to register the boats, the people say they don't.  The only reason the state implimentated the boat registration was that it came down as a Federal Mandate.  The state should have stood up and said "NO"A lot of people out in the bush either have not heard of it, or are not concerned since there is no place to register a boat out there anyway.   A lot of people refuse to register as a form of civil disobediance.  I am one.

As for the state doing inspections, maybe they do down along the coast, but here in the interior it's the troopers that have that responsiability and they just walk on by.  Now if they see a kid in a boat without a life jacket, that's a differant story, and they will pounce.  Alaskans are independent, we feel no one has the right to tell us how to run our lives.  I don't need someone inspecting my boat to tell me it is safe to operate.  Since my life depends on it, I am the one who should be making that decission.  We do a lot of thing with boats that people from the lower 48 would cring about.  

Gotta relate this story:  About six years ago a friend dropped his plane on a gravel bar due to engine problems.  Not able to get back off and winter approaching he knew he was in a pickle.  I came up the river with My boat, An 18ft John Boat with twin 50s.  My friend flagged me down and asked for help.  The plane was an experimental called a KIT FOX.  We unloaded all my supplies and took the wings off the plane.  We rolled it off the bank tail first, and onto the front of the boat.  The landing gear was too wide so we had to lash some poles to the struts for them to sit on.  The fuselage came back and hung off the rear of the boat.  When we got it settled, we had a heck of a time getting the boat off the bank.  Once out in the water I only had about two inches of freeboard.  I eased into the throttles and we started taking on water in the back.  I shoved the throttles forward and we climbed up on step.  I knew onc up on step there was no coming down, we would take on water and sink, boat was a bit overloaded.  Crossed the Tanana and up into the Chena, then found a gravel bar just up stream of the landing.  Water was only about a foot deep so when I backed off the throttles she settled to the bottom and wthere was not enough water to sink us.  We unloaded the plane and the boat floated to the landing and the trailer.  We went back and got the wings after freezeup.

Ya do what ya gotta do.

You admit its law so why do you fight it by becoming a criminal instead of getting people elected to change it ? We have always had to do it with boats on public waters. no big deal . And we don't get oil money and we pay income tax . Excuse me if i don't feel sorry really.But with an attitude like that what do ya'll expect the feds to do ? Court  is where you fight abuse not in the middle of the river.

[SHOOTALL]

While in the Coast Guard, I boarded many boats without actually stepping aboard.  The items the Rangers needed to see can be displayed easily without coming aboard.  I suspect there is more to this story that we are privy to at this time.  And for the record, if a fire extinguisher is required, it is not a casual item that is unemportant.

That is common sense around here to have one even on an out board equiped boat.I carry 2 on a 16 ft jon boat . Oh yea its an outboard .

[Drilling Man]

  Boat registration is FAR from new in Alaska...  It's just that it was never enforced, just like many other laws in Alaska.  The laws are there, it's just no one has been paying much attention to them.

  DM

[Drilling Man]

I suspect there is more to this story that we are privy to at this time. 

  After spending many many years in Alaska and the Alaskan bush, i'm "betting" you are right.  I've seen things like this there before, older folks there feel like they been doing it their way for 40 years, and no one should be telling them anything.

  I'm not taking sides, or blameing anyone, i'm just saying i saw how it works in the bush there MANY times, and felt just like all the other old farts did/do, when fish and feathers came along and bothered me.

  DM

[beerbelly]

Boat registration has nothing to do with safety, buying a tag from the state has nothing to do with safety, none of this crap has a damn thin to do with safety. It has to do with revenue! They could care less about your sorry butt, they just want your money. It also helps brainwash you in submitting to the government.
  All this safety sh-- is nothing but a ruse. As many people are killed by seat belts as are saved by them! But it gives the cops one more reason to pull you over and breach your right to privacy!
                                              Beerbelly

[SHOOTALL]

Beerbelly its a bit deeper with seat belts . Insurance pushed for them after studys showed more would be saved. Maybe you could post your facts on seat belts killing people. In effect their use has cut death benifits paid out . In reality those not wearing them and getting killed cost all of us paying for insurance . In effect when you choose not to wear one you could cost others in higher rates if you die.
If you ever experince an emg. on the water you would have a different view of safety equipment in boats. 

[Dand]

Roger is accurate to say that State registration of recreational boats on inland Alaska waters is a new thing. The Coast Guard used to enforce it along the south coast of Alaska but not on interior waters.  Somewhere between 5-10 years ago registration and enforcement was switched to the state. For a while there were information ads on TV and such but not now. And in a lot of remote Alaska there is little TV or ongoing education efforts to let folks know the law. Even harder, many many boats have a very unclear ownership history and it can be impossible to answer all the information required on the registration forms. I have a 27 yr old skiff that I bought unregistered.  I tried to figure out how to register it for several years. The Coast Guard would always send it back for info I could not get. Finally there was some sort of moratorium and all you had to do was say you owned the boat for X years and had no records of previous owners. I finally got my stickers and try to stay current on it.  But a LOT of rural Alaskans aren't paperwork oriented like me and they will take a long time and need help to get this stuff worked out.

I suspect too that there may be a bit more to the story than we know at this point but that roughing up sounds like poor LE work to me. And what sort of liability did the LE guys take on for dumping the other folks at a cabin for several days?

[Pat/Rick]

beerbelly is right. It is all about control and revenue.How many laws in this once free nation have revenue associated with them. lets start with marriage. Gotta have a license for that, one of the most basic acts of a free people. Our gov't has been allowed to intude in our lives and it is not leaving.

[oldandslow]

I guess I'm fortunate to live where I do. We have a bunch of state, BLM, and National Forest land. Even have a National Park or two. Everyone I've ever encountered that is involved with one of these agencies has always been courteous and helpful. Mind you I don't run around breaking the law.

Our boats have to be registered and I have been inspected three times over the last thirty years. They always ASKED to check my safety equipment. Personally I'm going to have a paddle, a couple of fire extinguishers, a bucket, and life jackets for everone and probably a spare whether I'm required to or not and I don't mind showing them to the fish and game guys. If I had told them NO then maybe they would have become more insistant about looking. 

One thing about it, if you get into a tight because you don't have the correct equipment to stay out of trouble, you are stupid, or get in trouble because of events you can't control then some law enforcement agency will be the one that pulls your fat out of the fire or retrieves your dead body most of the time.

[beerbelly]

. In effect when you choose not to wear one you could cost others in higher rates if you die.
If you ever experince an emg. on the water you would have a different view of safety equipment in boats. 

BS my death is not going to cost you one penny, no matter how I go!
  I lived ten years on a 31 foot sail boat. I carried every thing possible to see that my mate and I could survive. Taking measures to care for your well being is common sense. Being required by the powers that be is another can of worms! You may be stupid enough to need the government to look out for you, I am not!
                                 Beerbelly

[beerbelly]

some law enforcement agency will be the one that pulls your fat out of the fire or retrieves your dead body most of the time.

No some volunteer rescue unit will pull your dead butt out of the water. Once they can no longer write you a citation and collect revenue from you, they no longer have any interest in you!
                           Beerbelly

[Sourdough]

Like Dand said it's a state issue, and the state does not enforce it.  Our State Troopers do not enforce Federal Laws pertaining to hunting and fishing that are stricter than state law.  So the Feds come out on state waters and are looking for something on the first person they see.  They decide to enforce something they have never enforced before, and something the state does not enforce itself.

[Mikey]

Get a gun.

[SHOOTALL]

Whats new about the feds enforcing fed law ? I have been checked by fed game wardens . One ran up in the blind without ID and almost got cold cocked with the but of my gun. He jumped back out the door and told me I was under arrest for trying to hit a fed agent. I ask where it was printed on him what he was.His buddy was watching and laughing . All ended well , I didn't blame the feds or the law for one idoit .

[Drilling Man]

  Why not say it just the way it is...  The people in the villages figure that's those are "white mans" laws.  I've heard them use that term a thousand times!

  I've seen them shooting ducks and geese in the spring, and a thousand other things.  SO, don't even try to use the excuse that they don't know about a "law" because they don't have TV ect., truth is, they don't care.  YET, i've seen them use a twin outboard powered Boston Whaler, and a 300 WBY to shoot whales!  That part of the "white men" they like.  They use our TAX DOLLARS to charter a plane, to fly caribou from one village to another...  They like that part of "white man" too!

  DM

[briarpatch]

In the white house  robbing the hoods.

[oldandslow]

some law enforcement agency will be the one that pulls your fat out of the fire or retrieves your dead body most of the time.

No some volunteer rescue unit will pull your dead butt out of the water. Once they can no longer write you a citation and collect revenue from you, they no longer have any interest in you!
                           Beerbelly

Volunteer rescue units will be in in the hunt and help with the rescue/recovery but a law enforcement agency is always involved and in charge.