What I Said

[Swampman]

"The Education of Little Tree"....an excellent book!

[SHOOTALL]

"The Education of Little Tree"....an excellent book!

I thought so also. It shows the hardship some went thru. but also the skill they had

[Spirithawk]

There is always a choice.  My ancestors stayed right there in the mountains, and they are still there.

1) So do you imply they were the only ones? YOUR ancestors?

2) What makes your's any more special than the others that stayed?

3) They weren't shot because they hid, not out of bravery as you imply. Not everyone had that oportunity to hide. That doesn't make a person brave, just lucky.

4) Since you are so wise in our history, can you name the Anikituhwagi family that became legend because they did fight back? Sure, you can even look it up on line. Heck, I may have even posted the story on here.

5) Please inform us all of how your ancestor's  survived the order for all that resisted to be shot, if they made a stand, as you seem to imply.

6) I don't think I'm the only one who resents your saying that those who were forced on The Trail Where All Cried, of which all suffered greatly and one in four died, their bones scattered between the Tennessee River and Indian Teritory, were somehow cowards and less Cherokee than those that hid in the hills!

7) If the point of your last few posts were not all directed directly at me, simply for the sake of baiting because I don't buy into your bull, then please inform us all as to how they pertain to the object of your own thread, as you so often complain to others about getting off subject?



Shootall, if you enjoyed the book then you would probably enjoy the movie.

[SHOOTALL]

I admit this fight is none of my business but i am trying to understand how one group can say they suffered more than the other . Also it would appear both families and many more survived any way they could in a harsh time. It would seem that ya'll would celebrate the survival of each other not split . Hornor can only be judged by the conditions one faces .Its easy when you face no adversity.

[Spirithawk]

I admit this fight is none of my business but i am trying to understand how one group can say they suffered more than the other . Also it would appear both families and many more survived any way they could in a harsh time. It would seem that ya'll would celebrate the survival of each other not split . Hornor can only be judged by the conditions one faces .Its easy when you face no adversity.

Exactly my point! Unfortunately, to this very day, there is still bad blood betwen the Ross faction and the Ridge faction. There was a Anikituhwagi law called "The Blood Law " which stated that any Cherokee that signed away, or sold, Anikituhwagi land would be put to death. That law was taken quite seriously. Some went willingly to Indian Territory because they sold out, many of which payed for doing so with their lives. Some went willingly because they hoped to get a start on making homes for those they knew would be forced to follow. Then there were those forced at gunpoint to go. On the other side there were those lucky enough to hide and escape being forced to go. Then too there were a few, like the family I mentioned, that faced the militia and refused to go and were shot on the spot, no regards given to sex nor age! In times of turmoil there often are no answers that are 100% right nor 100% wrong. One survives according to circumstances. Some beyond their control, some of their own doing. To say one is right over the others, as Swamp is trying to do, is simply ludicrous at best and shameful at worst! Another book you might enjoy is called Creek Mary's Blood by Dee Brown who also wrote Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. It is a historicly acurate fiction but factually covers a lot of Cherokee history.

[SHOOTALL]

Thanks

[Spirithawk]

Thanks

You are quite welcome. 

[SHOOTALL]

BTW my wife is part Cherokee , one who's family hid in  NC.

[scootrd]

It can be argued that the reason is low wages, might be. But if that were true how can an illegal afford to live here?

I can only speak from personal experience , however a farm here provides free room along with the low wage and they stack'em many to a trailer.  There is also a house on adjacent property that seems to house them and their are about 10-12 junk cars (some running , some not ) that they use to go too wally world every Saturday. Other than that they keep a low profile.  If injured they use emergency room , and with Hippa laws they are not reported and we absorb the med cost cause they are uninsured.


If were gonna get serious ..you need to sock it to the employers that hire them knowing they  are illegal. until we are ready to penalize the employer all the rest is just double talk Govt thats not really serious about ending the problem.

[Swampman]

All people suffered during this time......some stayed in Tennessee.  Some were marched to Oklahoma.

My Greatgrandmother married a man named Jernigan.  Her parents stayed in Tennessee.

I'm proud of all my ancestors.  They were tough as nails and worked hard scrabble farms.  They never nursed at the government teat.

As long as folks can sit on their butts, and draw money from the government they will never do hard work.

[scootrd]

I say all able bodied AMERICANS can work for the same wages that the illegal's do if they would do just one thing, and that is LIVE WITHIN THEIR MEANS!

Absolute rubbish.  An American can not work for an illegals same wage and even keep a roof over their head much less feed their Children, keep 'em clothed etc.. After taxes, INS , etc..etc..  they would have zero.  Ridiculous.

Of the migrants in California today, anywhere from 30 percent to 60 percent, depending upon the crop, are illegal immigrants.
The hourly wages of some California farm workers, adjusted for inflation, have fallen 53 percent since 1985. Migrants are among the poorest workers in the United States. The average migrant worker is a twenty-eight-year-old male, born in Mexico, who earns about $5,000 a year for twenty-five weeks of farm work. His life expectancy is forty-nine years.

That's like $5.00 an hour (using a 40 hour work week) which we all know they work much longer hours than that.
So the big corps are probably paying close to 3.xx dollars an hour plus board. Try living off that as an American.

Heck you would be better off trying to live off what a newspaper delivery boy earns than a migrant farm workers salary. Gimme a break.

[Spirithawk]

BTW my wife is part Cherokee , one who's family hid in  NC.

Tell her Siyo ( Hello) for me.

Back to the real thread; My son makes a very good point. How can most Americans even afford to work when half their paychecks, or more,  has to go towards gas to even get to work? Lower gas prices to where they should be and maybe folks could afford to work. It's a shame when a person has to decide between putting gas in their vehicle, to get to and from work, or putting food on the table or paying bills.

As to Swampy, you say one thing one minute and something else the next.

Before;

There is always a choice, and, seems my ancestors were not hearded out of the mountains.  They stayed......We didn't feel like being sheep.

Now; [ Quote ] I'm proud of all my ancestors


Are you now saying you're proud of those who walked the "Trail" after first insinuating they were cowards? Remember, they are your ancestors too. Or are you just selective as to what suits your opinions? Make up your mind and quit trying to play both sides of the fence. As to your simply ignoring my questions, wellll, I'm use to that. You can't answer what you don't have answers for.

[Swampman]

They are not my ancestors.  Mine stayed.

I am ignoring your questions because they are irrelevent.

[Spirithawk]

They are not my ancestors.  Mine stayed.

I am ignoring your questions because they are irrelevent.

Then you know little of Cherokee customs, however I already knew that. Also, so what? Your ancestors stayed, they hid, they were lucky to do so and not be forced to go or worse yet shot. Your point therefore is what? That they are somehow better than all others simply because they lucked out? And my qestions are quite relavent to your own statements. You baited, I bit, and now you can't handle the catch. You are ignoring my questions because for some you have no answers and for others you'd be embaressing yourself by showing your own contradictions and self bias. Simple as that. I'm finished debating with someone who makes things up as they go. It's pointless. Anyone reading back over the posts can easily see the truth of what I say.

[Swampman]

Everytime we have a discussion you read a bunch of stuff into my post, change the subject, and start posting tons of irrelevent stuff.  I'm not interested in the history of the Cherokee beyond those who married into my family.  It's mostly myth and legends.

I'm glad you're finsihed and now we can return to the subject.

[Spirithawk]

Uh, excuse me, if one reads back over the posts it is you who brought the subject of the Cherokee up with your government check statement which can easily be tied to your previous posts about how you think all Indians subside on government checks. I simply called you on it and if my replies are irelevent then so must your statements be as my replies are derectly related to them. It's easy enough for everyone to read and decide for themselves the truth.

[Swampman]

You read all that into my post. 

[Spirithawk]

You read all that into my post.  

Hmmm, at the start you make this statement. Your words, not mine. (If I could get a check from the government every month like Spirithawk, I wouldn't have to work either. ) Considering you previously have stated many times that you think all Indians subside on government checks and that you are ashamed of them, how on earth could I be so mistaken as to your obvious jibe? My oh my, shame on me!
Then as you went on to say, repeatedly, how your ancestors are the only honorable Cherokee because they stayed, somehow making them more brave and superior than those who were forced at gunpoint to leave, why yes, I did read all that into your posts.

Lets go back to the start though. You object to my monthly check. Can't exactly deny that now can you? That leaves only two things you could object to. 1) your thinking it's because I'm Cherokee  or 2) you don't believe that war veterans, who served honorably, and are disabled due to their serving their Country deserve a pension. You feel they should be forgotten and left to waste away and die, just as long as it's no bother to you personaly. There simply is no number 3. So, please tell us now, which is it? If it's number 1, you are obviously contradicting yourself. If number 2, you are seriously pissing off a lot of veterans, both disabled and not, not to mention their families. You dug your hole, feel free to jump in. I said I was done, and I mean I'm done. Cast your bait, but you alone can live with the stink.

[powderman]

I read a book trail of tears last winter and learned a lot, some of my distant  relatives survived that march. The story started basicaly at the birth of Major Ridge and ended shortly after his death. The Cherokee fought bravely alongside whites to secure this nations freedoms and were rewarded with lies and treachery. According to the book many of those who moved actually preferred their new home to their old one. Whether they stayed or left all were badly treated. And yes, whites did help those who stayed. POWDERMAN. 

[Spirithawk]

I read a book trail of tears last winter and learned a lot, some of my distant  relatives survived that march. The story started basicaly at the birth of Major Ridge and ended shortly after his death. The Cherokee fought bravely alongside whites to secure this nations freedoms and were rewarded with lies and treachery. According to the book many of those who moved actually preferred their new home to their old one. Whether they stayed or left all were badly treated. And yes, whites did help those who stayed. POWDERMAN. 

Wado! Thank you to you and Shootall, it's refreshing to see someone who knows what they're talking about and not twisting the facts for personal gain.

[Swampman]

And do you get a check from the government?

Not once have I said my ancestors were the only honorable Cherokee.  I said my ancestors stayed and were not driven away.

[Spirithawk]

And do you get a check from the government?

Not once have I said my ancestors were the only honorable Cherokee.  I said my ancestors stayed and were not driven away.

Yes, unlike the others forced to leave that YOU called SHEEP and your repeatedly boasting your ancestors stayed, gee how could I be so mistaken? And as to what I get, Care to tell us all just how that's any of your buiseness? Not that it is any of your buiseness, but that has already been answered anyhow. Getting forgetful are you? Thus why I asked which is it you object to? Since I thought it may have been because I'm Cherokee, and you now say that's not the reason, yeah right,  then it must be my being a disabled Vietnam Vet who served honorably and is disabled because of my service? Therefore you think all service related disabilities should simply be forgotten and vets should simply die so as not to be a burdon to those they fought to protect? Oh excuse me, since you don't wish to answer,  my question must be irelavent.   but more likely because you either don't have an answer or the one you do might embaress you. Bye Swampy. You piss off Vietnam Vets, or vets in general, you won't need me to answer to. You'll have your hands full with plenty of others.

[BUGEYE]

hang in there swampman.  my wife is 16th cherokee from the ones that stayed.  is there any folks named Rose in your family?

[Swampman]

No Roses, but we do have a thorn or 2.

I'll let "Spirithawk" argue with himself.

[Spirithawk]

Like I said, put on the spot to give an honest answer and suddenly nothing is relevant and answers escape you. Was my question really that dificult to answer? You stated to all that you object to my getting a pension. Not man enough now to say why? No argument in that. Simply asking what anyone would feel should be exsplained after such a statement.

[Swampman]

You stated to all that you object to my getting a pension.

No I didn't......I stated that you get a government check.

You are all over the place as usual, making personal attacks, and making false statements.  That's what you always do, and the reason I've mostly kept you on ignore.

Back on ignore you go.

[nw_hunter]

You stated to all that you object to my getting a pension.

No I didn't......I stated that you get a government check.

You are all over the place as usual, making personal attacks, and making false statements.  That's what you always do, and the reason I've mostly kept you on ignore.

Back on ignore you go.

I thought this thread was about Americans not doing farm work!

Now it has turned into the Cherokee tribal feud The Swamp vs the Hawk clan.

[myronman3]

typical swampman....trolling as usual.   ignore him, spirit.  he obviously cant help himself with his simpleton ways. 

[Swampman]

I apologize to the board for all this nonsense.  I never resort to name calling, personal attacks, or discrediting those whose opinions are different than mine.

I say what I believe to be the truth.......period.

[BUGEYE]

I'm rootin for swampman
I had spirithawk on ignor one time.  I got tired of reading all spirtual indian stuff.
haven't seen much of it lately though.