Which 1911a1, whats the best? whats the best price? again and again we hear it?

[coyotejoe]

My question would be "why doesn't anyone build a 1911A1 which is actually a 1911A1?" Why do they all think a 1911 must have a flat mainspring housing when the arched housing fits my hand so much better? Why do they insist on calling it an A1 when it lacks the most identifiable characteristic of an A1?

[SHOOTALL]

I had a Colt that came that way and a P14-45 that came that way . But the 1911A-1 was an up grade most didn't care for it would seem. If the correct trigger is mated with the MSH that is used I don't really care .

[SHOOTALL]

then some might think it interfears with the grip safety who knows ?

[1911crazy]

If both the high priced and low priced 1911a1's function and shoot the same, with them, being reliable and dependable whats the difference?

Meaning if i hunt with a savage and a weatherby 30-06 rifle if both are accurate is one better than the other??  Does one being prettier mean it will be a faster/better kill?

I don't worry about crime in my area its very low do to the good olde boys who live around me, everybody has guns and they all shoot them often in there back yards.  My neighbors expressed to me that no one steals here and i can be sure of that. I moved 20 miles north and i went from me having to lock everything up where no lock is needed. Its the way life should be, like it once was when people took no crap from anyone. What a difference in people. I don't expect to use my gun in self defence or i hope i never have to use it.  But in the back of my mind my thoughts are if i ever use it i will lose it so i carry something thats not dear to me and i can replace it just incase that situation arrises we never know what can happen.  But i do carry a reliable gun. I think my cz pistols are more reliable than some of the 1911's i have had, i never had a cz pistol jam or stove pipe once yet.

[buck460XVR]

 Does one being prettier mean it will be a faster/better kill?

For many, yes. The "coolness" factor can be a major consideration in any purchase. The self-esteem derived from owning something cool can mean more to some than how it actually performs......and I have no problem with that. It's when folks think what's the best for them should be, without excuse, the best for me, that get's my dander up. Does paying more for something with more goodies make you better at something? Nope, not necessarily, altho it may give you the opportunity to be better. For example, I consistently outshoot my friends with my $500 Stainless 1991. I get ridiculed every time I take it out because in most cases, it cost 1/2 to 1/4 of what their 1911s did....and they tell me it's got that "nasty" FPS thingy that relates to a neanderthal trigger pull. But I still outshoot them. Now having a better quality gun does not make them a better shot than me, but it may make them a better shot than if they had to use my POS. It also gives them bragging rights when someone wants to look at our guns. Funny how folks are interested more in how our guns look or who made them, than how we printed on paper. But hey, if someone asked me if I'd rather have a 'vette or a Yugo, even tho they both will get  me to work on time, guess which one I'd pick?

[williamlayton]

Buck
I must agree with all you said.
I also must disagree to some extent.
What is a weapon's primary purpose? What is your weapon's primary purpose?
If it is games---then I suggest that the boys and girls who take it seriously do things to their weapons.
If it is target shooting then I suggest that those who do it seriously do some serious things to their weapons.
If it is for self defense then i suggest there are some serious things that should be considered.
Now the cool factor---I assume you have never been to a texas BBQ where the boys and gals come decked out in some pretty "COOL" weapons.
Doing good things to a weapon is/are for a specific purpose.
Blessings
 

[SHOOTALL]

If a high priced and economy priced gun will do the same thing whats the difference ? Does pretty make it shoot better ?
 Second ? first - Form follows function. So maybe . I find the sweeping beaver tail on a grip safety gives the gun a better look . Different sights also add to the business look of a gun . The finish can be one that is slicker in both looks and function. So in some cases pretty does shoot better.
 The first ? If you have never shot a high priced gun that was worth the cost then nothing any of us says will mean much to you . Sufice to say with a highly tuned gun of the best parts quality you expect a perfect trigger. You expect the fastest lock time ( he who shoots first all other things the same wins  ) . You expect the gun to fit like it was built as an extension of your arm. You expect all the parts to function with out hesitation or drag . There is not one annoiance in its operation . The hammer does not drag the side of the slide . The thumb safety works with out a mushy or hard movement.
 So when called into action when your life depends on it do you want a gun that is as close to perfect as possible or one made at as low of cost as possible with parts that have a planned breakage acceptable limit ?

If you shoot enough to be good you will wear out a cheap gun or at least some parts . In the end you will pay to rebuild it . If you don't care to shoot that much and get good then the cheap gun will most likely do.

[Bart Solo]

How a gun is priced is a function of a lot of things.  Higher price might or might not mean better components or workmanship.  Branding, and branding alone, can sometimes carry a product for an extended period of time.  I have read that in the case of the Colt that is exactly what has happened.  The management at Colt understands that it can charge more for a "real" Colt 1911.  It will charge more right up to the moment the brand won't support the extra price.   

I have had my Springfield Armory GI for a few weeks now.  I have discovered that it is well made, after the first few rounds it has functioned flawlessly, even with my home brewed lead bullets.  It is a pleasure to shoot.  I have also discovered that I need new sights because my eyes aren't what they used to be.  If I had bought a Mil Spec for a $100 more I would already have those sights.  I am going to spend more than that to have them upgraded.  My point is that one of the reasons we sometimes spend more is to acquire additional features.  The 1911 is one of those builidng block guns that an owner can enhance to meet his specific needs.

 The are lots of ways a 1911 can be configured.  Different configurations carry different costs.  When you compare 1911s you should look at the specs of the 1911s you are comparing.  You have to make sure that you are comparing apples to apples. 

[1911crazy]

Me personally once i know my new or reworked 1911a1 is good to go, meaning it shoots pretty accurate and it cycles and functions with no FTF or hickups and i have had 500rds thru it and its been flawless i don't plan on shooting that many rounds thru it anymore.  But now i'm sure i can depend on it if i have too.  Most of these 1911's can shoot better than i can.  This is were you guys say to shoot more so it can be mastered.  I also understand the quality maybe different between the high priced and the lower priced 1911's quality wise too.  So we actually need to keep an eye on the frame parts for wear too.  I think thats a well made point here too.

How good are the Spanish LLama Pistols in 45acp??  I know the Astra's and the Star's were decent pistols in 9mm parabellum and in 9mm largo.  Every so often i see the llama's show up in 45acp in the used pistol case and i been wondering if there any good or not? Again a cheap 45acp CCW gun.

Now with all this talk about the cost and quality of the 1911's what 1911 do you guys suggest for a quality and a well built 1911??  Is there an area in the price range were the 1911's get better in quality?  Or do we need to spend $1,500 or $2,000 to get a good one.

Right now I really like the looks of the Thompson Custom 1911a1 with some bells/whistles and i think its around $800+ for it in stainless.  At the sametime i also like the Howe Citadel 1911a1 in 45acp with the nickel finish, i think thats around $500 + or -.  My third choice is the RockIland Armory 1911a1 5" barrel in nickel finish too. These are also around $500 + or - too. The Thompson and the Citadel has bells and whistles while the RIA is a plain jane only with the nickel finish.

[SHOOTALL]

Clint Smith carries a taurars 1911 some. he shot it enough to break the weak parts and replaced them. The frame is forged and he feels it is OK. I think the point most who have been down the 1911  road is it cost a min . to have a good dependable gun either way you go .

[coyotejoe]

As to Llama pistols, when I ran a small gunshop I got a couple of them and neither would function out of the box, issues with the safety and slide stop. I got them working, more or less, and sold them cheap.

[odoh]

We must keep in mind too in my state/town they take my CCW gun away if i use it.  . . . . . .

Pray tell what State that would be?  Hope not CA but most likely ~

[mrussel]

SOAP BOX TIME AGAIN.
Why trust your life to the cheapest gun?
Why buy the cheapest just to plink with?
I like things that work.
Blessings

Because sometimes the lower cost guns work just fine. Thats why he was asking. RIAs work just fine. I dont know about any of the other ones. Yea,we would all like Wilson Combats but thats not in the cards for most of us. If you can afford one of those,that's great,good for you. For the rest of us,we want to know whats good and whats bad and how much it costs.

[mrussel]

We must keep in mind too in my state/town they take my CCW gun away if i use it.  . . . . . .

Pray tell what State that would be?  Hope not CA but most likely ~

 Just about anywhere,they are probably going to take the gun as evidence. Depending on where you live they might give you a hard time about returning it,but at the end of it all,if your not charged with a crime,they have to give it back.

[mrussel]

If a high priced and economy priced gun will do the same thing whats the difference ? Does pretty make it shoot better ?
 Second ? first - Form follows function. So maybe . I find the sweeping beaver tail on a grip safety gives the gun a better look . Different sights also add to the business look of a gun . The finish can be one that is slicker in both looks and function. So in some cases pretty does shoot better.
 The first ? If you have never shot a high priced gun that was worth the cost then nothing any of us says will mean much to you . Sufice to say with a highly tuned gun of the best parts quality you expect a perfect trigger. You expect the fastest lock time ( he who shoots first all other things the same wins   ) . You expect the gun to fit like it was built as an extension of your arm. You expect all the parts to function with out hesitation or drag . There is not one annoiance in its operation . The hammer does not drag the side of the slide . The thumb safety works with out a mushy or hard movement.
 So when called into action when your life depends on it do you want a gun that is as close to perfect as possible or one made at as low of cost as possible with parts that have a planned breakage acceptable limit ?

If you shoot enough to be good you will wear out a cheap gun or at least some parts . In the end you will pay to rebuild it . If you don't care to shoot that much and get good then the cheap gun will most likely do.

 So what your saying is,I should sell my car and buy a 5000 dollar gun on the off chance that I might need it? Thats where that argument leads. Seriously. The chance of needing a gun is remote for most people. We carry it just in case becuase it would seriously suck to be in a situation where you needed it and didn't have it. Still,this is the real world. We are not all made out of money. We have other priorities like house payments,car payments and braces for the kids. Only a fool or a total nut would forgo necessities like food and shelter or not take care of their children so they could have a spare no expense custom gun. As such you do the rational thing. You pair the field down to only those guns you can afford. You then choose the best from among those and carry that. If you have 5000 dollars to spend,great. If you have 1000 you can still get something that is pretty good. If you have 400 dollars to spend,the low end 1911s are very serviceable. The better ones will work reliably. They hit the target every time if you do your part and go bang every time you pull the trigger. For most people that isn't just good enough,it HAS to be good enough.

Thats why people come here asking "whats the best 1911". They dont really ask the question well. What they really mean is how do the various 1911s at the lower price levels compare so that I can make an informed decision about which of them will meet my needs. What happens though is some guy comes in with his sarcastic comment about "How much is your life worth" or makes comments about "Trusting your life to the cheapest gun". Most of us though dont live our lives in terror of being set upon by dozens of armed thugs. We are just trying to reduce our risks as much as reasonably practical. We are not going to sell our house to try to shave a tiny percent off the chances of getting killed in the already unlikely event of a gun fight. Those expensive guns hit the point of diminishing returns. All things considered,the chances of me being shot by a criminal carrying a 150 dollar high point 45 are probably about the same whether I'm carrying a RIA 1911 or a Wilson Combat one.

 One could actually make the argument that the Wilson Combat gives you a WORSE chance. Consider two people,who make abotu the same income. Each manages to scrape together 4000 dollars. One saves up and saves up and saves up and buys a Wilson Combat for 3 grand. He then practices with a 1000 dollars of ammo. The other buys an RIA. He puts a nice pair of grips on it,buys a couple of good magazines for it and then shoots a couple of boxes of ammo through it. The other guy is still saving for his gun. The RIA owner can put 2500 dollars of ammo through his gun while the other guy saves. Maybe his gun has some wear (guess what,ALL GUNS wear,period,and need maintenance) Lets say he puts another 500 dollars of repairs into it. At the end of the day,hes shot 3000 dollars of ammo. This is reality here. There is only so much money to go around. Its guns OR ammo,or some mix of the two. Ill tell you this much,go find the most skilled gun fighter you can and let us trade weapons. He probably DOES have some really nice gun. Now that I have his gun and he has mine,whose going to win the gun fight? He still is of course,becuase so long as the gun in his hand works,the difference that his custom 1911 adds vs my low cost one is very small. 99% of it is about skill.

 My advice is,get something sold,that will work reliably ,and then train like hell. Honestly,some of these modern but low end 1911s made on state of the art CNC tools are probably built to better tolerances than the old GI issued 1911s that were made nearly 100 years ago and they held up just fine.  Put the money into training (ammo,classes,however you want to do it) rather than hardware. The skill you get from shooting 5000 rounds of ammo through your gun will do more for you than ANY 3000 dollar custom gun ever will.

 Its not that the expensive guns are not "worth it". They are fine machines,expertly built and hand fit to exacting specifications. They are worth every penny that is charged for them. What Im saying is,if you only have so much money to spend,like most people, your better off doing other things with your money than buying one,if your purpose is simply self defense.

[coyotejoe]

I agree, but I would add this. If your interest is really about self defense and doing the most to insure your chances of survival, a serious ongoing course in unarmed combat will do a lot more for you than will learning to change magazines really fast. In most real life defensive situations an attacker will be on you really quickly and you will have to fight them off before you can get to your gun or fight to retain control of your gun. Despite all their training, about half of all cops who are shot are still shot with their own gun.

[mrussel]

Who here can help us out with how many rounds will your 1911 shoot before we have problems??

We just ran 500rds thru my new auto ordnance ww2 copy army 1911a1 and its been flawless along with my reworked norinco too its had 500rds thru it too.  We hammered both 1911's. The new AO is made from 4140 steel its a good grade os steel even though its casted, i trust it.  The norc as we know is both the reveiver/frame are forged from our old railroad track steel.  Do i feel safe with them as CCW pitsols and yes i do and i'd put my life on the line with both.
Too bad i haven't had my springer from the 90's series 90 last thru one mag without stove piping.  But the new mag should fix that.  I thunk it should work and function right out of the box at any cost.

So whats the question now??  Will a lesser priced 1911a1 last as long as the higher priced 1911a1's???  How many rounds will both shoot before they wear out is that correct?

Once your new 1911a1 is tested and broken in so its safe to carry as a CCW how much do you really shoot it after that??

My answer is, your answer maybe different, but i plan on still shooting it often but were not hammering it,  its just for plinking fun once its past the cycle/functionality test.  I would guess maybe for 100rds+ besides shooting other guns.

 Remember,the metal that the original 1911s were made out of is inferior to even many of the cheaper ones produced today. (I'm not going to say inferior to all the cheap ones,becuase I'm sure someone makes one that's just a total piece of junk and is made with inferior castings) Those old 1911s held up just fine. Will a lower end one last as long as a very expensive one? Maybe not,but I bet most of us wont put enough rounds through either to see one end up on the scrap heap. We are not talking a few thousand rounds but 10s of thousands. (and were not talking maintenance, but rather completely wearing out,and requiring replacement of the frame,slide and barrel.

[williamlayton]

For me, there is a bottom line---you do it your way.
I like good parts, well fitted---in the process the weapon becomes expedtially prettier---cooler looking.
That satisfies my mind and I shoot the snot out of mine---which just adds to the look.
Blessings

[1911crazy]

Right now my new Kahr Auto Ordnance Army WW2 copy 1911a1 in 45acp did function right out of the box flawlessly for 500rds.  I did lube it with moly and installed the 18# recoil spring with the full length guide rod kit from sportsmans guide when they offered it.  Right now its the only NIB that functioned for me the way a 1911 should for only $389.  There much higher now in price too.

I keep on hearing how good the RockIland Armory 1911's are too. Were still in the affordable price range like around $500 and under.

I think in any production run there can be a few new 1911's that will need some adjustment when there brand new.  Not all of thyem will be perfect right out of the box when there new.

So what i'm getting at is it the cost/price or is it the functionality/reliability or the bragging rights that drives the purchase of your first or next 1911??? Or do you let the peer pressure drive you in your choice too. So what makes you buy what you buy?

I chose the auto ordnance army ww2 copy because of the history of the auto ordnance company, plus there right here manufactured in Wooster,Mass USA. Not many of new 1911a1's are manufactured in the USA anymore.

For me i was trying to stay under $500 on a new 1911 purchase.  Thats been my norm lately.  But i been eyeing the $500 yet under $1,000 1911's too.  But i like looking at the 1911 under dogs too.  I like the RIA 1911a1 in nickel(under $500),  the Howe Citadel 1911a1 in nickel ($500ish)and the Kahr Thompson Custom 1911a1 in stainless ($800) are on my wish list for my next 1911's.

Ok it depends on how deep your pockets are and if you get a good one or not that can happen in any price range. This scares me away from the high dollar 1911a1's.

[mrussel]

Right now my new Kahr Auto Ordnance Army WW2 copy 1911a1 in 45acp did function right out of the box flawlessly for 500rds.  I did lube it with moly and installed the 18# recoil spring with the full length guide rod kit from sportsmans guide when they offered it.  Right now its the only NIB that functioned for me the way a 1911 should for only $389.  There much higher now in price too.

I keep on hearing how good the RockIland Armory 1911's are too. Were still in the affordable price range like around $500 and under.

I think in any production run there can be a few new 1911's that will need some adjustment when there brand new.  Not all of thyem will be perfect right out of the box when there new.

So what i'm getting at is it the cost/price or is it the functionality/reliability or the bragging rights that drives the purchase of your first or next 1911??? Or do you let the peer pressure drive you in your choice too. So what makes you buy what you buy?

I chose the auto ordnance army ww2 copy because of the history of the auto ordnance company, plus there right here manufactured in Wooster,Mass USA. Not many of new 1911a1's are manufactured in the USA anymore.

For me i was trying to stay under $500 on a new 1911 purchase.  Thats been my norm lately.  But i been eyeing the $500 yet under $1,000 1911's too.  But i like looking at the 1911 under dogs too.  I like the RIA 1911a1 in nickel(under $500),  the Howe Citadel 1911a1 in nickel ($500ish)and the Kahr Thompson Custom 1911a1 in stainless ($800) are on my wish list for my next 1911's.

Ok it depends on how deep your pockets are and if you get a good one or not that can happen in any price range. This scares me away from the high dollar 1911a1's.

 Ive been considering a Springfield GI for a 460 Rowland conversion as I understand they can handle it and they are reasonably priced.  I love my RIA and its 100% reliable,but I understand,that it is on the list of guns (which also includes original US army surplus GIs) that cannot take the kit. Thats not a big deal,you shouldn't put +P 9mm through most Browning Hi Powers either,becuase you will damage the frame,becuase it just was not made for that kind of ammo. However, I would absolutely trust one for self defense.(yes,some people will go on about how the 9mm is worthless and your better to just throw the gun at them,but that's a discussion for another time. If you throw a Browning Hi Power at someone though,its going to leave a bruise unlike those plastic guns!!! ) Similarly,guns like the RIA are not made to shoot things like 460 Rowland or 45 super through. Just becuase you cant make them do it does not mean they are bad guns or are going to fail on you.(Unless you do what your told not to and fire that stuff through them anyway) Similarly,my Ford Focus seems to have a solid little engine in it. It has plenty of power and seems to be reliable and get decent gas mileage. Its a good fit for the car its in. Lotus makes a quad turbo four cylinder in about the same displacement (slightly less actually). It gets around 400hp compared to my little Fords 120. I COULD put quad turbos on it. Id have to upgrade a lot of other stuff in the engine too. At the end of the day,I could probably get 400hp out of it. How long do we really think that it would last like that. The Lotus is one step down from a race car and needs the engine rebuilt every 20k miles. I bet my ford wouldn't get 5k before the engine blew if I did that too it? Does that mean that the Fords engine is "Junk" Of course not. Id just be trying to make it do something it was never designed to do. Similarly to the way that people point out for instance the Springfield and talk about how you can upgrade it to 460 Rowland,there ARE some engines out there (for all I know the Ford may actually be one,so if that's the case,pretend we were talking about a Toyota) that you CAN reliably get that kind of performance out there. They are overbuilt and over engineered. Thats good and those who want to do things like that will buy those cars to build them up. Similarly,if you want to build up a 1911 to do something it was not originally designed to do,you should know which ones were over build and which ones were not and buy one of the right ones. Of course with the cheap ones you have to be careful. There are low cost guns where they start with a solid design (for 1911s,that's done for them,just built it to spec),and use modern CNC tooling and manufacturing processes like MIM (nearly ALL production guns have MIM parts now,so if your going to say MIM is junk on a 1911,then Glocks and S&W and Ruger also make nothing but junk) to make good quality parts with tight tolerances at low prices.  Then there are guns out there where they try to find the lowest bidder on their MIM parts from China,wont pay for proper quality control and wont even hire good machinists or pay for proper maintenance on their machine tools,or replace worn cutting tools so long as they can keep cranking out parts that more or less work,and wouldnt dream of shutting down a production line for a day to figure out why there is a problem.

 As for being worried about buying a Wilson Combat and getting "one of the bad ones",I really doubt thats the case. From everything I have heard,not only is each one hand built and tested,they stand behind their products. I cant imagine they would have the rep they do if they didn't take care of those things. My guess is that if you have a WC and it turns out to have some problem with it,they will fix it 100%.

[1911crazy]

Whats the cost of the WC 1911? Is it $2,000?  And were not sure if its dependable out of the box.

The bottomline is this is why i carried a wheel gun for so many years until i got a chinese norinco 1911a1.

[mrussel]

1911crazy- How many rounds -what ever your comfort level is really. If you look at it with out emoition then check on how long the parts in it last. What are the service times the manuf. suggest ? Any brand gun can come as a good gun . All the parts work on this one . What does that really mean ? How close to tollerance are all the guns ? Is it most ? How accurate can you expect the gun to be ? Also not to all but to some will a custom builder use your frame ? If not why ?
 Norinco , did you know Bill Wilson will use these as base for a build up ? They are good guns the pin holes are in the correct place and the hardness is good. I had a friend who had an AO that i don't think ever went thru. a full mag with out stoppage.
 As for loss after a shooting, I some places they got to your home and collect all your guns after a shooting . Also the gun is life  insurance even 3 thousand bucks is cheap for a life time of coverage   If you cash in on it and are still alive .......

 If your going to send your gun to one of the top pistol smiths for thousands of dollars of work,then of course your going to start with a higher grade of gun. Honestly,I think the argument that the top smiths wont work on the low end guns is a non starter. It shouldn't be important for anyone buying them,and honestly,if it is,its a misplaced priority. As for 3000 dollars being "cheap for a life time of coverage",think of it this way. Ill sell you 100,000 dollars of life insurance for 400 dollars. Ill sell you 101,000 dollars for 3000. Its all risk vs cost. Actually,I bet your going to get your best value by buying a cheaper (maybe not a 400 dollar one,but maybe something for 800 or so) and putting that additional 2200 dollars into ammo and training. Its rather foolish to think that if you spend all your money on a precision crafted gun,its going to make up for skill. If you have the money for both the training and ammo AND the gun,great. Most of us however dont have 3 grand to throw down on something like that unless there is a compelling reason. The choice for most of us is not ammo AND a 3000 dollar gun,its ammo OR a 3000 dollar gun.

The reality is,the chance of my being in a gun fight is rather small. There were around 1.3million violent crimes and around 300million people in the US last year. That comes out to around 0.4%,in other words,all other things being equal,my chance is 0.4% of being a victim of a violent crime. Its actually vastly better than that becuase I avoid places where I would have problems like that. (One way I avoid them is by not going to or living in high crime areas if I can avoid it) I bet its at least 10x better than that.  Im going to make an estimate that its around one in 3000 so lets call it one in 1000 to make the math simple. The chance of my gun malfunctioning if I need it is also low. Lets assume that its also 1 in 1000,that means that out of 1000 shots I fire I have one problem. That sounds like a reasonable estimate. That means my chances of having a malfunction when Im being a victim of a violent crime is 1 in a 1,000,000. Maybe 3000 dollars buys a weapon thats gets a malfunction one in 10,000 times,so that means your odds are one in 10,000,000 of having a problem. The lesson here is,you have hit the point of diminishing returns. On the other hand,assuming neither of our guns jam,my chance of putting three shots in an attackers chest is going to be a lot more than yours if I have practiced a lot and you couldn't afford to becuase your still paying off the credit card that bought your 3000 dollar gun.

 Im all for reducing your risk of being victimized as far as practical,but there are limits. I could live on a compound surrounded by barbed wire and never leave it,but I dont want to live my life that way. I carry a gun where its practical.I carry one that's reasonably affordable and reliable and accurate enough. What I dont do is think that I can eliminate the risk entirely. Thats what he the whole thing about "being armed is a lifestyle","You should carry everywhere 24/7","I feel uncomfortable and vulnerable without my gun" and "My life is worth a 3000 dollar handgun" come in. Its all a false dichotomy. Its not either you carry at all times or your not safe or either you buy a 3000 dollar gun or your defenseless. Your more likely to get hit by a drink or reckless driver and killed than be killed in a gun fight. If you REALLY want to reduce your risk,not only dont drive,dont walk down the street. Neither are practical so you do what you can and accept the risk.

[mrussel]

Whats the cost of the WC 1911? Is it $2,000?  And were not sure if its dependable out of the box.

The bottomline is this is why i carried a wheel gun for so many years until i got a chinese norinco 1911a1.

 If its like most 1911s,and most especially most really tight 1911s,its not. Take it to the range,throw 250 rounds through it and its reliable. Thats going to take a few hours. If you can afford a 3000 dollar gun you can afford to shoot more than 50 rounds every couple of weeks through it. In fact,the only reason they probably dont do it at the factory is that people would be upset about buying a used gun for 3 grand. Actually,those 250 rounds you put through it are as much for you as the gun. Is anyone who thinks that the tiny bit of practical difference between a 1000 dollar 1911 and a 3000 dollar 1911 is something that they absolutely must have going to take that gun and carry it without having put enough ammo through it to be 110% comfortable with it.

 I honestly dont get what the big deal about breaking a gun is unless you can barely afford ammo and only get to shoot a box of 50 every month due to cost. Go to wallmart,buy a big box of ammo (or reload a bunch) take it to the range and in a few hours,its done.

[SHOOTALL]

mrussel , I disagree if the top smiths say there are faults in a frame its worth noting . Also will you sell me that policy for $400.00 for life or will it be for one year ? lets see age 21 to 74 would be 54 payments of $400.00 or $21600.00 total what was your point ? As to stats if you factor in location and job then the smart people know the real odds . As to pratice the more the better but like any sport or trade if you start with a better tool you only increase your chances of success .

[williamlayton]

One or two things going on here that need to be addressed.
Wilson Combat is one of the looser semi-custom on the market.
Baer is tight from start to finish.
It is correct to only use a base gun that has a good frame and slide----I like  Colts and all of my base builds are from Colt septin, the STI's which have excellent components to start with and there really is not a reason to go and change parts that are already well fitted--and the ol Norinco build.
I specify a certain amount of looseness--I just don't favor tight guns for personal work.
The Norinco has steel that SOME Smiths will not work on---it is very hard & not brittle.
Before I would do a build on a RIA or like weapons, I would purchase frames and slides from Caspian & do a complete build.
RIA and like Phillipiene frames & slides have come under criticsm from folks I know and trust.
I am very fortunate to have, within 20 minutes of the house, a very Good Smith and I do mean VERY good and well respected within his craft.
I spend, normally, includeing the price of the base weapon $2000 and the most has been $2300----which is the nominal cost of one from Wilson or such. They have what I want on them.

I must make a correction---I went wild once. I found an engraved series 70 Colt with old ivory handles---they wanted $1700 for it at Collectors Firearms---they wanted that price for a year and no amount of haggeling changed the price one iaota---I paid the price for the weapon and put another $1100 into it---------AND I don't regret a dime of it-----I shoot the snot out of it. 
Blessings

[mrussel]

mrussel , I disagree if the top smiths say there are faults in a frame its worth noting . Also will you sell me that policy for $400.00 for life or will it be for one year ? lets see age 21 to 74 would be 54 payments of $400.00 or $21600.00 total what was your point ? As to stats if you factor in location and job then the smart people know the real odds . As to practice the more the better but like any sport or trade if you start with a better tool you only increase your chances of success .

 The fact is,people have to live within their budgets and use their money most effectively. A Glock costs around 500 dollars and few people except fan-boys of some particular favorite weapon would argue it was a bad choice. Personally,I hate Glocks,but they are good guns. Similarly there are dozens of other gun in that price range that are fine guns. One of my favorites is the Browning Hi Power (if you dont like 9mm go with 40S&W) A FN marked (they are ALL made by FN) model will set you back 600 dollars. On some days I might even be inclined to argue its a BETTER choice than a 1911. (On others I might argue for the 1911) The reality is however that anyone who tells you a BHP or a Glock (or any of the other solid production handguns available) are a BAD choice for self defense is talking out the wrong end. 

I want to address the frame strength issues. Is a aluminum frame or polymer frame gun unsuitable for self defense and concealed carry? Of course not,but guess what,its not as strong as even a cast 1911 frame. That shines a spotlight on the real reasons. Aluminum frames are good becuase they are expensive. Cast are bad becuase they are low cost. It really has nothing to do with the strength of the frame does it? Thats really what this "you MUST buy a 3000 dollar custom gun" snobbery comes down to. We should see it for what it is. Will a 500 dollar 1911 compare favorably against a 3000 dollar 1911? Probably not. Will it compare favorably against a Glock? A BHP? Your favorite semi auto other than a 1911?

 Lets get over this whole thing. There are plenty of great guns out there to choose from that are NOT 1911s and cost around 5 or 6 hundred dollars. There are also a some 1911s in that range. They are all fine guns. Then there are 3000 dollar plus semi custom and custom guns. They provide a very poor cost benefit ratio for the average person.

[jimster]

I agree there are lot's of good guns out there in the 500 dollar range, and nothing wrong with finding a "used" good gun in that range either, some of the best deals might be used guns if you look around. 

Reliability is a must, you can make that happen either at the smith or maybe yourself if your into it.  Cast vs. forged vs XXX....there will always be lots to read on that, you just have to go with what you think.  I bought a new mil-spec Springer in 2002 for 400 bucks, I ordered around 200 bucks or so of small parts I wanted from Brown, EGW, Smith & Alexander, etc...after about 5000 rounds or so went through it, I decided this pistol does not have to take a backseat to any other brand as far as reliability, and I like the forged frame and slide.  It would however take a backseat far as shooting tiny groups, I decided I was not going to put any more money into it for a long time, the role of this pistol is not shooting tiny groups, it only has to go off, eject, and self load all the time with no exceptions.  1" groups at 25 yds, NOPE...more like 3" depending on ammo with my old eyes and using a rest...but you can pop a gallon milk jug at 50 yrds if you aim careful every time, and groups are real small at 12 yds which is what I need for this 1911.  When I see a Wilson I drool, a Les Baer makes me break out in a sweat, sure would like something like that, someday if funds allow maybe.  I have made this 1911 reliable for under 600 bucks, if I buy another one I will by it used, that would have saved me some bucks too. Main thing is whatever you can afford, shoot it enough so you can tell if it's reliable and count on it, that is all that matters no matter what you spend, because big brand names and the little names are going back to customer service a lot these days...stuff happens with all of them sometimes.  You bet your life on something you have tested yourself, not a brand name.
You still could have something happen after all that too...cause sometimes stuff happens.   

[coyotejoe]

Or, you could just get over this 1911 fetish and get a modern pistol which doesn't need to be completely rebuilt just to function.

[jimster]

Or, you could just get over this 1911 fetish and get a modern pistol which doesn't need to be completely rebuilt just to function.

This is probably the best option come to think of it.   

[mrussel]

Or, you could just get over this 1911 fetish and get a modern pistol which doesn't need to be completely rebuilt just to function.

 The fact is,you dont HAVE to rebuild most 1911s to function. Thats just a myth propagated by people with more money than common sense. You rebuild one to get it exactly how you like it,or to make it more accurate,but there are plenty that are just fine out of the box (after a few hundred rounds to break them in,which in my opinion is no big deal)