Author Topic: For Powderman & Shootall  (Read 2211 times)

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Offline Spirithawk

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For Powderman & Shootall
« on: September 29, 2010, 06:32:36 PM »
I'm posting this for Powderman and Shootall because they showed an interest and I believe you guys will enjoy it. So anyone else can choose to read it or ignore it, just don't get your panties in a twist. No one is forcing you to read it. This is well documented fact not fiction.

                    
This is the legend of Tsali. He and his family were real people who once lived in a real place. I call this story a legend because of how he became a symbol of his people. Tsali stands as a symbol of courage, loyalty, and devotion of all the Cherokee.

 
 This is what I was told as a boy.....Long ago, when the troubles of the Cherokee began, the ordinary Cherokee did not understand that anything was really wrong. All they knew was that their tribal chiefs traveled back and forth to the white man's place called Washington a lot more often than they used to. They also knew that upon the chiefs return there were many many quarrels in the tribal council. Now, up in the hills, where the Ani Kituhwah - the True Cherokees ( those that held to the old ways and beliefs ) - lived, word of the changes came slowly. Much more slowly than to the Cherokee who lived in the valleys. Many of those living in the hills never left their farms, and when they did they just traveled to the trading post and right back. Few travelers ever ventured into the hills, into the uplands, where the mists of the Smokies shut out the encroaching world. So when the news arived that some of the chiefs had touched the pen, and put their names and marks on a paper, thus agreeing by doing so that this was no longer Cherokee country, the Ani Kituhwah could not believe their ears. Surely, they told each other, the news must be false. No Cherokee, not even one of mixed blood, would sign away his own and his people's lands. But......that's just what the chiefs had done!  The word came that the chiefs were even more devided amongst themselves. Not all of them had touched the pen. Some were not willing to move across the Mississippi, to settle around Fort Gibson in Oklahoma.  "Perhaps we should stay," thought the Ani kituhwah. "Perhaps we will not really have to move."   But they knew in their hearts that false hope was the cruelest  curse of mankind. One of the leaders of the Ani Kituhwah was named Tsali. The white men couldn't pronounce his name so they called him Charlie. Some called him Dutch. They were of the oldest Ani Kituhwah blood and pure 100% Ani Kituhwah. Tsali and his 4 sons  worked two hillsides and the valley between them, in the southern part of the hill country. Tsali and his wife and their youngest son lived in a log house at the head of the hollow. The others lived in homes spread out along the hillsides. They grew corn, beans,a few English peas, squashes, pumpkins, tobacco and cotton. Even a bit of sugar cane and indigo. Tsali's wife kept chickens in a fenced pen away from the house. The women gathered wild hemp and spun it, as well as the wool from their sheep. They did all the work of making cloths for the family. But sometimes, in the winter, when their chores were done the men would help at the looms.  Tsali and his family were not rich, in the dollar sense, not like some who lived in the valleys below. They had hardly ever seen the white man's metal money in their whole lives. But they never lacked for food, shelter, clothing or their love for each other.  The missionaries hardly ever came to the high hills back then. Tsali would take his sons, their wives, and his own wife to the great dance ground where the 7 Ani Kituhwah villages gathered each month at the full moon. There they danced their prayers in time to the beating of the women's terrapin-shell rattles, around and around the mound of packed white ashes on top of which bloomed the eternal fire that was the life of all Cherokees. The occassional missionary would fuss over the children, giving them white men's names. The Cherokee listened politely to the missionaries, for the missionaries were great gossips, and by listening they would learn their news while ignoring the rest. The Cherokee were told by them that this time there was no hope. Everyone would have to move, the Georgia troopers were moving in, all would have to go west. " Never," Tsali answered. "This is our land and we belong to it. Who could take it from us? Who could even want it? Even we have a hard time farming here. Surely only the land in the lower valleys are of any use to the white man." " They want these hills more than anywhere else," answered the missionary. " Don't you see you poor ignorant Indian? They are finding gold! Gold, downstream in Kituhwah country! That means the gold washed there from up here!!!! I have seen it myself! " "You mean this yellow stuff," asked Tsali as he held up a pouch and opened it. The missionary neary went wild at the sight of the yellow dust it contained! " I only have this," Tsali told him. " because I wish to go to the trader to buy my wife some new ribbon for her dress. "  The missionary pleaded with him. Then tried threatoning Tsali. He wanted to be Tsali's partner. Together they could be rich. But it was all in vain. Tsali had no interest in the yellow metal, and certainly no interest in being partners with the greedy missionary in anything. So Tsali went down to the trading post to buy the ribbon for his wife's dress. And guess what happened? When the trader saw his pouch of yellow gold dust he went as mad in the head as the missionary. He too wanted to know where it came from. He too wanted, no demanded, to be Tsali's partner. Tsali told him as kindly as his patience allowed, " No, I do not wish to be rich in that kind of manor." So saying he just bought the ribbon for his wife's dress and quickly left. A month later the Georgia militia came riding up to Tsali's cabin. They demanded his wife tell them where he could be found. When she demanded to know why they were there they told her their intent was to put them off of their place. That the land no longer belonged to them and it was now open for settlement. Then pointing at the riders with him, the militia captain  told her that likely one of these two men will claim it.  Tsali's wife looked up and there sat the trader and the missionary glaring down at her.  She pleaded that they could not do that, but her words fell on deaf ears. She was told they all would be taken down by the river, herded into the camp there and would be shipped west tomorrow morning. She sent her youngest son to tell Tsali, who was working in the fields with his other sons, the terrible news. Being assured that his wife was alright, at least when the boy left, Tsali told everyone that they would hide that night in the woods. All afternoon his wife waited. All afternoon so did the white men. When it became dark the militia made camp in Tsali's yard.  The white men's women took over the house and cooked the white men's meals.  Then late into the night,  Tsali's wife and his son's wives , heard a soft scratching. The men had come to get them. Take nothing but only your knives they were told and quietly they all slipped away. In the morning the white men found them gone! It was spring, and the weather warm, but the rain fell and soaked the Cherokees. They had brought no food and they dared not fire a gun. One of the daughters-in-law was pregnant and her time very close. His wife was stiff and crippled with rheumatism. They gathered wild greens and the boys trapped small animals and birds in string snares the women made by pulling out their hair and twisting it. In time, they hoped, the white men would give up and go away. But it was not to be so. one of the white men had brought a dog with him. It led the white men to the cave where the Cherokee were hiding. The white men captured the Cherokee and tied the men's hands behind their backs. Then they bound them all together. Thus they herded the men and women through the woods, back to Tsali's house. There the Cherokee could not believe their eyes. The troopers had plundered the garden, trampled the plants they didn't eat. The door to the kitchen was ripped from it's frame. Another door hung by one hinge. Clothes and bedding lay in filthy piles around the yard. What the militia men could not use.....they ruined! Tsali's wife asked what they intended to do with them and was told they all would be taken down to the river to be sent west. Tsali refused to go! Our orders are to shoot all who resist he was told. " Shoot me then!" was his answer. " I will not go" he said quietly " You - nor you - nor you - nobody can make me go." His wife, Amanda, screamed, " If you shoot him then shoot us both! I would not wish to go on living without my husband and I too can not bear to leave my home." Tsali's four sons stepped close to their father. "We die with our parents" they told the captain. Even the youngest boy stood by his brother's sides. But Tsali told him he was too young to die. Everyone else had lived a good life but his was still ahead of him. He pleaded with the captain not to shoot the boy.  " Very well" said the captain. " He can't do too much harm if he lives. Let him go take care of his sisters on their way west."  Turning to his men the captain told them to take the boy and young women away. To keep them untill the boats came then load them all aboard. The young boy and women, stunned and silenced, were driven down the road before they could even say goodby, nor would the troopers allow them to look back. Tears streamed from their faces....as behind them they heard the shots........so says, Spirit Hawk ^i^

Offline scootrd

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2010, 07:07:14 PM »
Good read , thanks , My family has been tracing our genealogy for a number of years now. I am of Acadian decent.
My family was expelled from Nova Scotia in 1755 under the great expulsion for fighting along side the french and Míkmaq Indians against the British. When expelled the Acadians were purposely scattered among all the British colonies in an effort of ethnic cleansing.  As they sailed south they were turned away from many ports all along the east coast, Those that made their way to Louisiana became Cajuns.

It's estimated of the 25, 000 Acadian's living in Nova Scotia and surrounding provinces in harmony with the Mikmaq Indians approx half were killed during the expulsion or scattered to the winds amonst the colonies , sent back to France of held as prisoners of war in England.  another 5,000 managed to hide among the Mikmaq or escape to the further interior of Canada. The Acadian population decimated under British rule.

My ancestors returned after the war and resettled in Yarmouth County Nova Scotia having intermarried amongst the Mikmaq for generations , family ties were too strong to remain expelled.

The Band wrote a song called Acadian Driftwood about their expulsion and long journey as a peoples.

The war was over and the spirit was broken
The hills were smokin' as the men withdrew
We stood on the cliffs
Oh, and watched the ships
Slowly sinking to their rendezvous
They signed a treaty and our homes were taken
Loved ones forsaken
They didn't give a damn
Try'n' to raise a family
End up the enemy
Over what went down on the plains of Abraham

Acadian driftwood
Gypsy tail wind
They call my home the land of snow
Canadian cold front movin' in
What a way to ride
Oh, what a way to go

Then some returned to the motherland
The high command had them cast away
And some stayed on to finish what they started
They never parted
They're just built that way
We had kin livin' south of the border
They're a little older and they've been around
They wrote a letter life is a whole lot better
So pull up your stakes, children and come on down

Fifteen under zero when the day became a threat
My clothes were wet and I was drenched to the bone
Been out ice fishing, too much repetition
Make a man wanna leave the only home he's known
Sailing out of the gulf headin' for Saint Pierre
Nothin' to declare
All we had was gone
Broke down along the coast
But what hurt the most
When the people there said
"You better keep movin' on"

Everlasting summer filled with ill-content
This government had us walkin' in chains
This isn't my turf
This ain't my season
Can't think of one good reason to remain
I've worked in the sugar fields up from New Orleans
It was ever green up until the floods
You could call it an omen
Points ya where you're goin'
Set my compass north
I got winter in my blood

Acadian driftwood
Gypsy tail wind
They call my home the land of snow
Canadian cold front movin' in
What a way to ride
Ah, what a way to go



SpiritHawk if you get a chance to read about the Acadians (and their own personal trail of tears so to speak story) I think you would enjoy the read although it's quite a sad point in history for them as a people.  
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2010, 07:36:57 PM »
Glad you enjoyed it. I enjoyed your post as well. Thank you for sharing. I know a bit about the Acadians but would be interested in learning more. Seems our Peoples have a lot in common. :)

Offline BBF

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2010, 09:13:27 PM »
When I first came to Nova Scotia I lived for three months in a very small settlement of mostly Acadian people on Isle Madame. I found them to be a friendly bunch of people although I don't speak French it was a pleasant time.

Quebec on the other hand................................ >:(
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Offline powderman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 04:28:19 AM »
SPIRITHAWK. Thank you for the history lesson. Until I read the trail of tears there were a lot of things I didn't know. The Cherokee had done much of what the white man wanted. Their children were being educated, John Ridge was a fine example of that, I think John was his name. Major Ridge insisted that his son be well educated because he knew that times were changing rapidly and he wanted his family not only to survive, to thrive. He, as well as a lot of others had plantations and farms like the whites did, they not only adapted, they thrived and became wealthy. They were in the same position as a lot of Americans have been in when an interstate hwy is built. Sell it  to us or we will take it. I saw that in ILL when the interstate came through, many farms cut in two or destroyed. The Cherokee were smart enough to know they couldn't fight and win, so they sold out. There were letters and journals from soldiers in that book, mostly sympathetic to the Cherokee people, others were downright cruel. I'm glad I read that book and may read it again this winter. Thanks again for the story. Charlie.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline BBF

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 06:11:59 AM »
TM7
Where do I begin? ::)
In a biligual country like Canada I should be able to read Traffic Advisory boards, not so in Quebec, all in French, so are some of the fuel pumps. Walk into a Restaurant including Fast Foods and see if you can find someone that admits to be able to converse in English. Quebec in politics ::) considers itself a sovereign country but sure loves to get all the benefits plus extra from the Feds.
As far as the femmes are concerned. Quebec doesn't have a monopoly on them and unless you are French or have deep deep pockets don't bother to ask for the time of the day. That could be said for other places as well though :D

 End of Rant :-X
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2010, 06:24:28 AM »
SPIRITHAWK. Thank you for the history lesson. Until I read the trail of tears there were a lot of things I didn't know. The Cherokee had done much of what the white man wanted. Their children were being educated, John Ridge was a fine example of that, I think John was his name. Major Ridge insisted that his son be well educated because he knew that times were changing rapidly and he wanted his family not only to survive, to thrive. He, as well as a lot of others had plantations and farms like the whites did, they not only adapted, they thrived and became wealthy. They were in the same position as a lot of Americans have been in when an interstate hwy is built. Sell it  to us or we will take it. I saw that in ILL when the interstate came through, many farms cut in two or destroyed. The Cherokee were smart enough to know they couldn't fight and win, so they sold out. There were letters and journals from soldiers in that book, mostly sympathetic to the Cherokee people, others were downright cruel. I'm glad I read that book and may read it again this winter. Thanks again for the story. Charlie.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


You are quite welcome my friend. I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)

Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2010, 07:05:34 AM »
Thankyou for the story. I will let my wife and children read it as well. My wifes mother side has Cherokee blood. IIRC my motherIL grandfather was Cherokee but he refused to sign some paper proclaiming his heritage. My mother in law says that he refused as "he wasn't no dirty indian". I believe he did this possibly so he could keep his land?? I don't know. This may have been a reaction to what had happened prior in history, or possibly an act of denial as to what did happen. I will never know.I think my wife is a diluted 1/8th Cherokee.
 I would be very interested to read more if you would post more stories of your people.I enjoyed it very much.Thanks again. Patrick

Offline Heather

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2010, 07:11:26 AM »
THANKS Spirithawk!  This will make for a great addition to our history lesson for the week!

Heather
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Offline Swampman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2010, 07:23:35 AM »
None of my ancestors would admit to being indians.  Even my mother until her death denied it.  Common practice.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline myronman3

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2010, 07:54:44 AM »
again with your b.s. swampman.    what the hell is wrong with you?  you obviously go out of your way to malign spirit.   what a small person you are. 

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2010, 08:01:20 AM »
You are most welcome Heather and Pat/Rick. I'll probably post more stories even though some somehow manage to feel threatoned by them or make it a point to belittle them. Just shows their ignorance and not my problem to make men of boys.

Myronman, thanks for your suport but in this case Swamp actually probably stated truth. Plus, as he himself stated, he is a whopping 1/8 Cherokee. So his mother was probably correct in her denying being "Indian". When he does speak truthfully I'll be the first to give him credit. I just refuse to let him rewrite history as he alone sees it or to stand by as he slanders those he thinks himself somehow better than. I do find it strange, and somewhat funny, that seeing as how he made it a point to tell everyone I'm on his ignore list, he somehow managed to make it a point to comment on my post. Also that seeing as how he claims to be so hard working it makes one wonder where and how he finds so much time to be on the computer doing everything but work. lol

There are three very good reasons why many denied being "Indian" ; 1) Because in many states it was made illegal for an  "Indian" to own land 2) Because if found to be "Indian" they would have faced forced removal to " Indian Territory" 3) The US Census recognised only two races, White and Black. To be listed you had to be one or the other.


Offline Swampman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2010, 08:14:59 AM »
You'd have to be from Tennessee or Kentucky to understand.  World wars were fought there..........it wasn't pretty.  They haven't forgot.

Here's some history for you...

http://www.mohicanpress.com/wwwboard/messages3/9997.html
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2010, 08:27:34 AM »
You are most welcome Heather and Pat/Rick. I'll probably post more stories even though some somehow manage to feel threatoned by them or make it a point to belittle them. Just shows their ignorance and not my problem to make men of boys.

Myronman, thanks for your suport but in this case Swamp actually probably stated truth. When he does so I'll be the first to give him credit. I just refuse to let him rewrite history as he alone sees it or to stand by as he slanders those he thinks himself somehow better than. I do find it strange, and somewhat funny, that seeing as how he made it a point to tell everyone I'm on his ignore list, he somehow managed to make it a point to comment on my post.

There are three very good reasons why many denied being "Indian" ; 1) Because in many states it was made illegal for an  "Indian" to own land 2) Because if found to be "Indian" they would have faced forced removal to " Indian Territory" 3) The US Census recognised only two races, White and Black. To be listed you had to be one or the other.

Interesting bit of history that I didn't know.  Thanks!

I really would like to do a bit of research on my lineage but never have found the time.  One of my great-great grandmothers on my mother's side was Native American.  My mother has always said Cherokee, but I know how my mother's memory works - I trust her whole heartedly that she was Native American but I'd never trust my mom to correctly remember the actual tribe.  

With my last Native American ancestor 4 generations back though, I don't tend to consider myself part Native American - it's just an interesting point of curiosity for me (I've got blond hair for goodness sakes ;)).  In what little bit of research I have been able to do, I know that from my father's side we were originally from France, and then migrated to England during the Norman Invasions.  They immigrated to Virginia sometime in the 1600's and somehow made it down into South Carolina sometime in the early 1800's.  

Offline myronman3

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2010, 08:32:35 AM »
You'd have to be from Tennessee or Kentucky to understand.  World wars were fought there..........it wasn't pretty.  They haven't forgot.

Here's some history for you...

http://www.mohicanpress.com/wwwboard/messages3/9997.html
  funny, i have met alot of people from there.  and i have found them all to be good people, as opposed to objectionable nimcompoops who lash out at people for no discernable reason.   

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2010, 08:33:39 AM »
You'd have to be from Tennessee or Kentucky to understand.  World wars were fought there..........it wasn't pretty.  They haven't forgot.

Here's some history for you...

http://www.mohicanpress.com/wwwboard/messages3/9997.html

And your point is? Just what has any of that have to do with the Cherokee or their forced removal or for that matter Tennessee or Kentucky? Misdirect and make things all about you and your family. Do you really need attention that badly?

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2010, 08:42:41 AM »
Quote

Interesting bit of history that I didn't know.  Thanks!

I really would like to do a bit of research on my lineage but never have found the time.  One of my great-great grandmothers on my mother's side was Native American.  My mother has always said Cherokee, but I know how my mother's memory works - I trust her whole heartedly that she was Native American but I'd never trust my mom to correctly remember the actual tribe.  

With my last Native American ancestor 4 generations back though, I don't tend to consider myself part Native American - it's just an interesting point of curiosity for me (I've got blond hair for goodness sakes ;)).  In what little bit of research I have been able to do, I know that from my father's side we were originally from France, and then migrated to England during the Norman Invasions.  They immigrated to Virginia sometime in the 1600's and somehow made it down into South Carolina sometime in the early 1800's.  


You are most welcome. Being Cherokee, or Lakota, or Dine, ect. is as much about a way of life as it is blood. I have often said, it's not the quantity but the quallity. It's how you live. How you think. How you conect with everything around you. I recall an Elder, upon being told by a visitor that she was part Lakota, asking the visitor if she could kindly show which part it was that was part Lakota. lol

Offline powderman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2010, 08:46:40 AM »
Swampman, good read. I've seen a documentry on Simon Kenton, another interesting  figure who endured much. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Swampman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2010, 09:34:51 AM »
Captain Overall was my GGGGreatuncle....


January 22, 1793: Robert Benge, his two uncles, Doublehead [Taltsuska] and Pumpkin Boy [Iyahuwagiatsutsa] and several other Cherokee, in retaliation for the Cherokee defeat at Buchanan's Station, went into the "barrens" region of southwestern Kentucky. [This was a region with little water because of the large number of sinkholes, i.e. a karstic plain. It was also thought to have been burnt in the past to provide grassland for bison.] They set up an ambush at one of the few watering holes, Dripping Spring, along the Nashville-Kentucky road. Captain Overall and a Mr. Burnett were proceeding south on the road with nine packhorses loaded with provisions (whiskey, salt, etc.) for the settlements along the Cumberland. Both were killed in the ambush and their scalps were taken. "…The whiskey they found was regarded as a pleasing bonus for the victory. After making liberal use of it, Doublehead made a suggestion which shocked even his battle hardened companions. He calmly drew his knife and began cutting strips of flesh from the bodies of the two white men, proposing that the Cherokees join him in the ancient Iroquoian ritual of 'eating their enemy.' This type of ceremonial cannibalism was the means by which the northern Iroquois enhanced their reputations as fierce warriors. After several rounds of reciting their own war exploits and consuming the booze, their ferociousness was second to none and Benge and the others followed Doublehead's example by partaking of the hearts and brains of their victims. The deed was done with little sense of ceremony, but rather as a deliberate atrocity, well calculated to strike terror in the hearts of the Cumberland settlements."

Robert was my GGGGreat Grandfaher

Nathaniel Overall (1758- 1835) and his brother Robert were among the men who made the overland journey to the Cumberland settlement after its establishment by James Robertson, their brother William and seven others in 1779. The Overall sisters, Nancy and Mary, arrived on the Donelson Flotilla in April of 1780. When the Cumberland Compact was written to establish a government, and Nathaniel and his brothers were signers. William and Robert lost their lives in conflicts with the Indians within the next dozen years, as did Joshua Thomas, the husband of Nathaniel's sister Nancy. Nathaniel was the only one of the Overall brothers to die a natural death. He was an active member of the community: acting as an estate administrator and constable; making numerous land transactions; and owning over 2,000 acres of land over a 30-year period. Several of his land dealings were with his friend and lawyer, Andrew Jackson.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline myronman3

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2010, 09:38:53 AM »
Quote
And your point is? Just what has any of that have to do with the Cherokee or their forced removal or for that matter Tennessee or Kentucky? Misdirect and make things all about you and your family. Do you really need attention that badly?
  evidently, that is the case. 

Offline Swampman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2010, 09:45:31 AM »
When you come home to find your cabin destroyed and your familie's brains bashed out you are going to retaliate in a harsh manner.

This was not a one sided affair as current revisionist historians and Hollywood would have us believe.

Andrew Jackson was doing what the public wanted done.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2010, 11:52:00 AM »
interesting story swampman.
Give me liberty, or give me death
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2010, 12:02:48 PM »
Andrew Jackson was the only president to defy a Supreme Court ruling. Yes, he did what the public wanted, they wanted land they could simply have for free but mostly gold! Nice excuse huh? He betrayed the very people that saved his life at Horseshoe Bend. Whats wrong Swamp, do unto others as they do unto you don't work for you? You want to talk attrocities? I can tell you lots about that! I don't recall any "Indian" sending out invitations " Genecides ok Free Land! Take what you want!" Giving out smallpox infected food and blankets was just good sport huh? Exterminating whole tribes just good clean fun. Who taught who how to scalp Swamp? Care to tell that story? Bounties on "Indian" scalps was just a legitimate way to make a living right? Bonuses for childrens scalps cool? Cutting off womens breasts to make tobacco pouches a neat hobby? Attacking under a flag of truce and wiping out villages they were sworn by their own government to protect, no big deal? Inviting those that helped and taught your people to survive to a feast so they could afterwards massacre them because their religion and self righteousness made them fear them, then twisting the truth and using the feast as an example for Thanks Giving a nice way of saying thank you? At least we now know why you are so bitter towards " Indians" huh! I tend to shy away from such attrocities for they are in the past but if you insist on bringing them up then people should know it was a two way street! But one side was fighting for their lives and homes, the other was fighting to take both! Quick to call Indian's sore losers when you need a long hard look in the mirror. What happened to ignoring me? I made it clear who this post was for. Feel the need to follow me around do you? If I thought your posts were actually for the sake of history I'd not mind a bit but you've made it quite obviouse that your a bitter jealous man.

Offline Swampman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2010, 12:10:42 PM »
Not bitter at all I just get annoyed when people ignore the big picture.  It wasn't about gold.  It was mostly about hate (both sides) as all wars are.

History must be examined in a historical manner.  Hollywood and the revisionist aside.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2010, 12:25:04 PM »
Not bitter at all I just get annoyed when people ignore the big picture.  It wasn't about gold.  It was mostly about hate (both sides) as all wars are.

History must be examined in a historical manner.  Hollywood and the revisionist aside.

It was definitely about gold and land. If not then why were they so quick to take both? Why did Jackson defy the Supreme Court? Why did the Black Hills become prime realistate only after gold was found? If only hate then why were there settlers moving in faster than the "Indians" could be driven out? I come onto your property, into your house, tell you both and all your possesions now belong to me and you must leave are you going to just shake my hand and say thank you or are you going to fight to keep what's your's? Wars are often about greed more than hate. Wanting what the other has and taking it by force and the fear the other side can and will fight back. That is what breeds the hate! You seem to like to make excuses. I prefer the truth.

Offline Swampman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2010, 12:35:50 PM »
I'd have fled into the wilderness as my relatives did.

Unfortunately for the indians they were always on the wrong side.  During the F&I war they fought along side the French and commited horrible atrocities.  During the Rev. War they fought along side the British and commited horrible atrocities.  During Pontiacs Rebellion they commited horrible atrocities.  During the War of 1812 they fought along side the British and commited horrible atrocities.  During the Civil War the fought along side the CSA and lost.

"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline powderman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2010, 01:05:52 PM »
In the book , trail of tears, I learned about a side of Andrew Jackson I'd never heard of before. He went from a hero to a scheming conniving jerk who completely turned his back on the entire Cherokee nation. It WAS about land and gold, Virginia pushed this more than anybody because they wanted the land and the riches. Major Ridge fought alongside Jackson and was promised many things, but got only treachery and deceit. Without The Cherokee Jackson would have not won his battles, possibly not become president. I'd always thought him a hero, not any more.
Swampman. I did enjoy your article but don't kid yourself, it was all about greed, for land, and gold. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
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Offline Swampman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2010, 01:17:30 PM »
He helped create The United States of America and most of us might not exist today if he hadn't.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2010, 01:33:40 PM »
Looking back on history I seriously doubt that jackson was the only one who was citing "manifest destiny". Those words to me alone are bravo sierra. Alot of people were wronged.Horribly and heinously. custer even had prospecters with him when he went into the black hills country. he knew what he would find, and greed from the people in the east propelled it. hearst himself ended up there to "get his share". The USA is a good country,I am proud to be american and dang proud to have served in the military, but it has a damn dark past that prooved nothing but "might makes right".

Offline powderman

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Re: For Powderman & Shootall
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2010, 01:54:30 PM »
PAT/RICK. Well said and true. When the Cherokee were forced to leave they had pretty well done everything the white man asked them to do. POWDERMAN.  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm