For Powderman & Shootall

[Swampman]

There's a lesson there.

[slim rem 7]

thanks for the story spirit hawk..perhaps the future of the people in this country , may depend on thier learning from our
native americans history..my happiness just don t depend on money.. some of my kids don t really grasp where im coming from..but they do love old ,marches to a different drummer dad..im only a small part cherokee .. but thats not the point.. left to my choice, id live similar to the man you told the story of..
 even now im a man who made plenty of mistakes in the 20th century,finding himself pretty well lost,
if i try an live as most do in the 21st..so i just live how i know how to..
 those people ,you wrote of took life in stride an made a good life ,, hardship was just part of that life...to bad thier way had to end..
 my way will end someday also, but i don t dread death that much..its appointed to every living thing ,once to die[not that im in a hurry for it]..thanks an god bless you spirithawk..

[Spirithawk]

Yeah Swamp, you just keep telling yourself that manifest destiny is a just cause. Then when the Mexicans own your home and property I'm sure you won't mind at all. After all, if manifest destiny is good for one people, then why not all people? Or do you have a monopoly on it? As to all "Indians" fleeing to the wilderness, just what wilderness are you talking about? Sure a very few were able to hide but a whole nation? All Nations? Is it that you're foolish enough to believe that are is just that you think everyone else is? And just what wilderness was left? Many tried and were hunted down. Their sources of food and shelter destroyed as the only way to defeat them. Never mind the begining of germ warfare used against them. The reservations were chosen because the land was believed to be desolate and nobody wanted it. They thought it useless.  That is untill they discovered the land had resources they wanted. The battle to steal even that land still goes on. People cry about "Indian" owned casinos but flock there to blow their money. Can't stand to see an "Indian" profit from anything. Sure Swamp, justify theivery and murder any how you wish if that makes you sleep better. Tell yourself that it's wrong for a people to fight to keep what is theirs and to do so by any means available to them.  Look around you Swampy. Watch the news, listen to the radio, read a paper? Things have come full circle. Now those south of the border are doing to you what you did to us. It will get much worse too and every single day I read post after post crying about it. But you know what they say about payback don't you Swamp! It's a real B****! My point being....LEARN FROM THE PAST, DON'T REPEAT IT!


Slim, Blessings bro. You're a survivor and use your brain for other than hate.

[Pat/Rick]

There are times when an incident happens here that reminds me of our history. Lately, the posts of the fed rangers in AK. Are they wanting us in localized areas? i.e. cities? Sure be alot easier to control us wouldn't it? Yes, call it karma, what goes around comes around, whatever, it will all happen again.Give it time.

Well said Spirithawk.

[Spirithawk]

There are times when an incident happens here that reminds me of our history. Lately, the posts of the fed rangers in AK. Are they wanting us in localized areas? i.e. cities? Sure be alot easier to control us wouldn't it? Yes, call it karma, what goes around comes around, whatever, it will all happen again.Give it time.

Well said Spirithawk.

It is I who thank you for understanding. Be well my friend. Be safe. I wish you enough......Adanvdo Towodi ^i^

[Spirithawk]

He helped create The United States of America and most of us might not exist today if he hadn't.

I beg to differ. Seeing as how jackson is not in my leneage, nor most if not all the people here, we most certainly would exist just fine without his help. You sure like to excuse theivery with the manifest destiny crap don't you?

[beerbelly]

When the white man arrived here, he found the country inhabited by savages. Savages that were a threat to his life and property. So he did what anyone with a brain would do. He removed the threat.
                                           Beerbelly

[LONGTOM]

When the white man arrived here, he found the country inhabited by savages. Savages that were a threat to his life and property. So he did what anyone with a brain would do. He removed the threat.
                                           Beerbelly

I am not picking sides here nor am I qetting involved in this discussion, but may I point out that it was the white man that invaded the so called savages's land and was a threat to their life and property.
So the savages tried to do just what the white man did, and that was to drive them out.
Such is the history of the white man.



LONGTOM

[Spirithawk]

When the white man arrived here, he found the country inhabited by savages. Savages that were a threat to his life and property. So he did what anyone with a brain would do. He removed the threat.
                                           Beerbelly

His property? What made it his? Simply because he had the might and the desire to take it? Who the savages were all depends on who you ask!

[dukkillr]

*Sigh*

Please just ignore him.  No intelligent person agrees with him.  I'm not even sure he agrees with what he says. 

I don't want to lock all these threads but if you can't ignore the bait that's where they are headed.

[beerbelly]

? Simply because he had the might and the desire to take it?

That is the way of the world. Always has been, always will be. The Muslim’s and Mexicans are about to do the same to us.
                           Beerbelly

[powderman]

it was the white man that invaded the so called savages's land and was a threat to their life and property.
So the savages tried to do just what the white man did, and that was to drive them out.



SHOOTALL. Agreed Sir.
duk. We are all adults here having an adult discussion with differing opinions. No reason to lock this, we are big boys. POWDERMAN. 

[Spirithawk]

? Simply because he had the might and the desire to take it?

That is the way of the world. Always has been, always will be. The Muslim’s and Mexicans are about to do the same to us.
                           Beerbelly

I agree, partly. I just posted above that things are coming full circle. But as to something being right, simply because others do the same wrong, is a dog that just don't hunt. Explain to me how repeating the same wrong over and over is the right thing to do? Yes, that's the way it's been, still is, and always will be as long as ignorance and greed overules right and justice. Some people though strive to do better.

[beerbelly]

There could be no other out come. Had we not done it the French, Spanish, Russians one would have.
                                   Beerbelly

[Swampman]

There's no question about who were the savages.  I have stories that will make your skin crawl.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~varussel/indian/

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bowen/mackbowen.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=_1pqfMkcOxsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=indian+atrocities&source=bl&ots=lTaNo-X-eB&sig=HZeL1Gm7lYp1P4YxIaR-7M9EBSw&hl=en&ei=MpWnTIaMNoG8lQfr1vWeDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Spirithawk]

There could be no other out come. Had we not done it the French, Spanish, Russians one would have.
                                   Beerbelly

I agree, but as I said, it still don't make it right. You can put perfume on a pile of crap, it might smell better, but it's still gonna smell and it's still gonna be a pile of crap. It's easy to say that we shouldn't complain because your side won. But, you sure do a lot of complaing now that, as you said, the Mexicans and Muslims are doing it to you which proves that it kinda sucks to be on the losing side and the winners aren't always the good guys. You call it whining, when your not the one doing it. I call it asking for understanding so we learn from it and don't repeat the past. I've said my piece. No need to beat a dead horse, nor a live one.


Swamp, your attempts at baiting are so old they don't even merit attention. But I will say this, not to you but to everyone else, for every single link such as Swamp just posted I could post several showing brutality as well. Complete with photos and documentation. Sand Creek and Wounded Knee are just the better known of many. Body parts cut off of men, women and children. Taken for souveniers, even the bones crushed into powder to hide the crimes and rid the earth of all sign of those butchered. Tell me Swamp, how many races of your people did the "Indians" exterminate? How many that were killed to the last man, woman and child? The Irish, German, English, French, ect., ect., are all still here are they not? I'm not talking masacres, I'm taking Genocide.  Know what that means? Here maybe this will exsplain;

Genocide by the provisions of the convention of the United Nations in Dec. 1948 is defined as:
"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, and includes five types of criminal actions: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Lyman Legters
"The American Genocide"
Policy Studies Journal, vol. 16, no. 4, summer 1988

 
Reference kindly provided by Loretta K. Carroll - Thank you, Loretta.  


"...Let me remind you only of the witch-hunts of the middle ages, the horrors of the French revolution, or the genocide of the American Indians... in such periods there are always only a very few who do not succumb. But when it is all over, everyone, horrified, asks `for heaven's sake, how could I?' "

Albert Speer, Hitler's minister of war production, writing from prison in 1953.
 
"Hitler's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination - by starvation and uneven combat - of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity." P. 202, "Adolph Hitler" by John Toland

 "The destruction of the Indians of the Americas was, far and away, the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world." David E. Stannard.
 
 "This violent corruption needn't define us.... We can say, yes, this happened, and we are ashamed. We repudiate the greed. We recognize and condemn the evil. And we see how the harm has been perpetuated. But, five hundred years later, we intend to mean something else in the world." Barry Lopez.
  
 "By then [1891] the native population had been reduced to 2.5% of its original numbers and 97.5% of the aboriginal land base had been expropriated....Hundreds upon hundreds of native tribes with unique languages, learning, customs, and cultures had simply been erased from the face of the earth, most often without even the pretense of justice or law." Peter Montague  


For my end of the discussion this is it, finit, done. If a person can't see right from wrong I'm not gonna try and force them. Their problem, not mine.
 

[Swampman]

There could be no other out come. Had we not done it the French, Spanish, Russians one would have.
                                   Beerbelly

In fact 90+% of the indians died from disease and nothing could have stopped that.  They did give us syphilis to take back to Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

[Spirithawk]

There could be no other out come. Had we not done it the French, Spanish, Russians one would have.
                                   Beerbelly

In fact 90+% of the indians died from disease and nothing could have stopped that.  They did give us syphilis to take back to Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

Uh, you fail to mention where those diseases came from. Hmmm, wonder why? You not read the whole article Swamp? Let me enlighten you;


Chicken pox and measles, although by this time endemic and rarely fatal among Europeans (long after being introduced from Asia), often proved deadly to Native Americans. Smallpox proved particularly fatal to Native American populations.[40] Epidemics often immediately followed European exploration and sometimes destroyed entire village populations. While precise figures are difficult to determine, some historians estimate that up to 80% of some Native populations died after first contact due to Eurasian infectious diseases.[41] ONE THEORY( Here you go quoting theory as fact again Swamp) of Columbian exchange suggests explorers from the Christopher Columbus expedition contracted syphilis from indigenous peoples and carried it back to Europe, where it spread widely.[42] (You failed to mention the rest of the article. Any particular reason why?) Other researchers believe that the disease existed in Europe and Asia BEFORE Columbus and his men returned from exposure to indigenous peoples of the Americas, but that they brought back a more virulent form.

 My, sailers contracting Syphilis. Imagine that!  Of course they were healthy and pure when they left Europe.   Introduce a disease into a people with no previous exsposure and a more virulant form appears.


 It is commonly believed that syphilis spread from Native Americans to Europeans. There is developing DNA evidence that suggests syphilis (Yaws) was in Europe prior to Columbus's time. Like every other disease there is growing evidence that Europeans brought syphilis to America.


 Swamp, your baiting is just that, baiting.

[Swampman]

Just another pity party......Keep reinventing history and the facts so you can feel sorry for yourself.....while you draw that check.

[Spirithawk]

Just another pity party......Keep reinventing history and the facts so you can feel sorry for yourself.....while you draw that check.

 Why is it those you quote are all correct, though you did misquote them which I proved, yet when I quote the rest of the very same article it suddenly becomes wrong? You chose the article, not me. I simply quoted the very next sentence that you for some reason failed to mention. Then backed it with other verifiable info which anyone is free to read and verify for themselves.  Yet like a sore loser you say I am the one reinventing history? Bait, Bait and more Bait Swamp.
Well, I was told baiting is allowed.

 However, personal attacks are not. My income, my VA pension payed for with MY blood, is really none of your buiseness and constitutes a personal attack. Why Swamp? Because being civil don't work for you?  Welllll moderators???  

[Swampman]

No personal attacks at all.  I'm just trying to get you to study history.  I'm pretty sure you do get a government check from a government you seem to run down constantly.  Don't be a hater.  I'm pretty happy with the way our country turned out.  Neither of us would be here if things hadn't turned out the way they did.

[Spirithawk]

No personal attacks at all.  I'm just trying to get you to study history.  I'm pretty sure you do get a government check from a government you seem to run down constantly.  Don't be a hater.  I'm pretty happy with the way our country turned out.  Neither of us would be here if things hadn't turned out the way they did.

Swamp, do me a favor. Just for grins. Show me where I said I hate the government? Trust it? Now that's a whole diferant story. No, I don't trust it, nor do I believe most of us in this whole Country  trusts it at this stage. I've said repeatedly, I don't know how I could make it any clearer, I blame no one alive today for what happened in the past. But I do blame those who seem eager to repeat and continue such acts and even condone them. Also, just to clear the fog you seem be in. I get that government check because as I've said, I paid for it with my own blood and seeing as how those chemical induced illnesses are now showing up in my children, with their blood as well. When others burned their draft cards and even the flag itself, got deferments because of rich or politicaly connected parents, or ran and hid in Canada, I enlisted. I volunteered for both the service to this Country and for Vietnam. What I didn't volunteer for, nor did by brothers in arms, was to be used as giunea pigs for chemical warfare. Nor to be cursed at and spit on when we returned home. I assume you earn you paycheck your way.  I doubt you'd apreciate it if folks started questiong as to just how because it's frankly none of their buisness, just as mine is none of your's. Well I dang sure earned mine. It would do you well to remember too, history is not all dates, facts, and antidotes written in an article nor in a book. It's about people too. It also doesn't help to pick out just the tiny pieces that support your theories and ignore the rest. If you are all about the truth of history then why so upset when it's presented? I encourage anyone interested. Read the very article that Swamp posted. See which of us left out what. Can't be any more fair, nor ovbvious, than that. The truth is there for anyone who can read to see. Don't take either of our word for it. As to whether we'd be here or not if things had been differant. I think you assume too much again, only the Creator knows the answer to that. One last question, for you and anyone else interested, to ponder. Why is it that when you talk about attrocities done to your people it's history. When I talk about atrocities done to my people by your's it's hate and whining? There a certain set of rules that aply to other's, not you?

[Swampman]

Personally I don't care what happened to white settlers.  I was simply trying to get you to understand that this wasn't/isn't one sided.

The fact is disease killed all but a little less than 500,000 native americans before it was over.  Direct contact wasn't even necessary.

[Spirithawk]

Personally I don't care what happened to white settlers.  I was simply trying to get you to understand that this wasn't/isn't one sided.

The fact is disease killed all but a little less than 500,000 native americans before it was over.  Direct contact wasn't even necessary.

Just remember you said that because if need be I won't hesitate to remind you. I think that shows a diferance between us though. You see I do care, about both sides. Swamp, do you or anyone else believe that direct contact, with all who got sick and died, was necesary for a disease to decimate a people who had 0 tolerance and imunity to it? Look how many the same diseases killed in European countries that had both some imunity built up plus vacines. It's thought that the U.S. Government at one point, a day late and a dollar short,  considered vacinating the "Indians". Just as well they didn't. It's now thought that the vacines themselve's could have killed people with no imunity of the diseases they were meant to cure. It's also widely believed, that often the diseases were spread intentionaly.

[Swampman]

There a documented case of Indians digging up and scalping a bunch of corpses from a small pox epidemic in Kentucky.  They took the scalps back to their villages.  It possible that some intentional infection took place, but mostly it was just the fact that 2 cultures collided and one of them had no natural immunity.

I actually suspect that most of the Native Americans that did survive may have had some European genes (and thus immunity) as French and Scotts traders lived amongst them almost from the begining.

No hard feelings on my part......

[powderman]

Swampman. I've seen NOWHERE in Spirithawks many posts that he runs down America, with maybe the exception of osama obama and I do that too. He loves America enough that he fought for his country and has, and will continue to  suffer for wounds sustained in defense of America.
Now, if Indians in Kentucky ever dug up bodies to scalp them I never heard of it. Why would they do that??? I won't go into why a scalp was taken but it was much more than bragging rights. POWDERMAN.  

[Swampman]

Swampman. I've seen NOWHERE in Spirithawks many posts that he runs down America, with maybe the exception of osama obama and I do that too. He loves America enough that he fought for his country and has, and will continue to  suffer for wounds sustained in defense of America.
Now, if Indians in Kentucky ever dug up bodies to scalp them I never heard of it. Why would they do that??? I won't go into why a scalp was taken but it was much more than bragging rights. POWDERMAN.  

Scalps were worth money.  Both the British and the French paid for them.  Bragging rights came into play as well.  White Militia were also known to dig up Indian corpses and scalp them.  I believe the rate was $20.00 for a man, $10.00 for a woman, and $5.00 for a child.

[Spirithawk]

Swampman. I've seen NOWHERE in Spirithawks many posts that he runs down America, with maybe the exception of osama obama and I do that too. He loves America enough that he fought for his country and has, and will continue to  suffer for wounds sustained in defense of America.
Now, if Indians in Kentucky ever dug up bodies to scalp them I never heard of it. Why would they do that??? I won't go into why a scalp was taken but it was much more than bragging rights. POWDERMAN.  

Scalps were worth money.  Both the British and the French paid for them.  Bragging rights came into play as well.  White Militia were also known to dig up Indian corpses and scalp them.  I believe the rate was $20.00 for a man, $10.00 for a woman, and $5.00 for a child.

Very true Swamp. As I said, when you're right I'll be the first to give you credit. Where scalping is concerned it would surprise the majority of people to learn where it originated. The removal of the skin covering the top of a person's head during or after a battle dates back to the Scythians (c. 400 BC). Here the Spanish, French, British and Americans encouraged, and paid "Indians" to take scalps of one another plus paid their own people for "Indian" scalps later on. No one of them had a monopoly on finagling "Indians" to do so. They hated each other,  made false promises and gave money and goods to get the "savages" to do their dirty work. Scalping being an all "Indian" thing is a tv and movie falacy and was as likely to be done by a person of european ancestry as an "Indian".

[powderman]

In the  book, MAGNIFICENT WARRIORS OF THE PLAINS, it said that it was believed the spirit, or soul, was in the hair or head and that a man killed in battle had to be scalped to release his spirit. Scalping the enemy was seen as giving release to his spirit, which they did to those who fought bravely and those they respected as warriors. Those who were truly hated were not scalped and doomed to walk the earth forever. The book also said that scalps were used in a ritual where they were put on a stick and stuck up in the smoke inside a teepee to offer the spirit of the dead to the great spirit. I really enjoyed that book, all 800+ pages of it. Right or wrong, that is what I read. POWDERMAN. 

[billy_56081]

Spirithawk, I have messaged you and told you my feelings, but old swampy is a bit over board here. As I have told you before there were bad things on both sides, but I am very glad they happened or I wouldn't exist.