The First Americans

[Swampman]

I love the study of the ancients.  This is an interesting article.

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/3774/did-australian-aborigines-reach-america-first?page=0%2C0

[BUGEYE]

that's interesting. along with the finding of cocane in egyptian mummies, the americas' must have been a busy place.  I watch lots of documentarys about this stuff and wish I new the truth.

[Spirithawk]

Interesting article. But if true, it kinda shoots the heck out of your Europeans here first theory. At least here they are backing it with a substantial amount of archeological evidence. Not thumbing my nose at you, just making a point. A question Swamp, and not meant to antaganise, just something I think you'd be interested in. Have you ever studied artifacts? I have a sizable collection. It is thought, and I'll be the first to admit it's still theory, that Sandia points are much older than Folsum points. That would mean that man was here much earlier than first thought. I love studying artifacts. It's thrilling to me to hold something in my had that is 10,000 are more years old and made by our ancestors. I find them after heavy rains and hopefully before farm equipment shatters the pieces. What most people think of arrowheads were actually knives. Imagine trying to tie a 3" or larger piece of stone to an arrow shaft and trying to shoot it. lol It would be like a cartoon and land not far from your feet!

[Swampman]

I believe this country was settled in several waves.

Tons of atlatl points are found here in NW FL.  In downtown Fort Walton Beach you can't dig a post hole without bringing up pottery shards.

Here's a great video that you'll probably like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQnbgEGek1c

[Pat/Rick]

Interesting article, thanks. By far the best program I have seen so far was on historychannel or discovery. Comparrison of pottery fragment that are in westrn So America that compare directly with those in Japan. Dugout canoes in so California that are very much like a Polynesian style. Rockered jaw bone structure similar to Eastern peoples on the westrn coast of America. Flatter jaw bone structure in the eastern america closer to euro peoples. Earlier point reminiscent of some found in France. Could there have been migration from both sides at once??I certainly would not disbelieve the aborigional theories.So much we do not know.
"Points" and artifacts fascinate me as well. It is illegal to collect artifacts here where I live. I have a couple that were given to me from very old collections. I have seen one found and Spirithawk is absolutely corect that most arrowheads are actually blades from "hafted knives". I am still curious about atlatl "darts". The local museums here have small but very good collections, mostly from Emery Strong who was a archiologist here in the pacific northwest. Other good collections can be seen a Casa Grande in AZ, and the museum of anthropology in Vancouver BC, The Makah museum is very good as well (WA), I was at their dig (visiting) in the early 70's a few times.

[squirrellluck]

Didn't some tribes have stories that told of another people? Refered to them as the old ones? Or maybe I'm getting it confused with a legend.

[Swampman]

Yes they do...who where the old ones and why did they disappear?

[Spirithawk]

Thanks Swamp, I did enjoy that. You know? If we quit bickering we could probably learn a lot from each other. The term "Old Ones" refer usualy to the Anasazi. Anasazi has been interpreted both as the Old Ones and Ancient Enemy. There are others refered to as ancient ones too. About every tribe has such tales. Ever hear of Cahokia Mounds Sawmp? I grew up in the area and played there as a kid. I've even read that there is a theory that the Cherokee originated there. Heres a few pics of a small portion of my collection. Thouight you all might enjoy seeing them. Here it's legal to hunt artifacts on private land. I don't dig, I don't disturb burial grounds, and I don't dig in caves. My finds are surface finds saved from destruction by plows, farm equipment and even cows step on pieces and shatter them. Broken pieces are rightfully called " Heart Breakers."

A Frame of knives, a Turtle Back Scraper, A fluted  blunt and a corner notched and stemmed blunt.



A frame of "Bird Points, actually war points, drills and a ceremonial flint fish hook. I was told it's 1 of 5 known to exist.  These points vary in age from the Archaich period and aprox 7,000 years old right up to the Mississippian Period and 500 years old. Most are of the older periods though.




A frame of pieces varying in age from 1,000 to aprox 10,000 years old. The drill left top is an Adena Dickson aprox 2,000 years old. The one on the right is a Dalton Drill aprox 10,000 years old.



A "Bird Point" my son found and gifted me with. It's a type called "Bonham" and an exceptional example from the Woodland period aprox 1,200 years old. Pieces are named after locations certain styles were first found and also after those who first discover a style. early points were lancelate, or leaf like. No notches nor stems. Next came the developement of stemmed forms followed by corner, side and bottom notched forms. There are transitional pieces too. Those that are between the developement of one style and the next often showing charectoristics of both.  Then theres a few where someone just decided to try something differant for one reason or another. Nothing was wasted. broken points were reworked into blunts, scrapers and drills. The drills in the "Bird Point" frame are perfect examples of reworked knives.

[Swampman]

I would like to know what started

"The Cahokia "Big Bang"

Archaeologists have recently spoken of a 'big bang' emanating from Cahokia around 1050 AD, a population and cultural explosion. Physical evidence from the outlying upland settlements some 6 to12 miles east of Cahokia appear to indicate a sudden cultural change toward the rapid adoption of some Mississippian characteristics. Were the residents there being 'drawn in' to this new way of life, or was it being imposed upon them? At least one or more of the sites in the area seems to have been literally constructed largely at once, perhaps as a physical outpost of Cahokia."

Did a traveler show up?

[Spirithawk]

I would like to know what started

"The Cahokia "Big Bang"

Archaeologists have recently spoken of a 'big bang' emanating from Cahokia around 1050 AD, a population and cultural explosion. Physical evidence from the outlying upland settlements some 6 to12 miles east of Cahokia appear to indicate a sudden cultural change toward the rapid adoption of some Mississippian characteristics. Were the residents there being 'drawn in' to this new way of life, or was it being imposed upon them? At least one or more of the sites in the area seems to have been literally constructed largely at once, perhaps as a physical outpost of Cahokia."

Did a traveler show up?

Cahokia didn't just happen. It evolved. I heard a while back that the theory was that the Spanish came through and scattered the inhabitants of Cahokia. The main theory, is that overpopulation and a lack of enough resources caused it's demise. It could be a bit of both. It just as easily could be that the common folk got tired of the hierarchy. There's solid evidence that the People of Cahokia traded goods coast to coast. I think that what caused Cahokia's rise was the trading of goods and ideas. Did you know that St. Louis was once known as Mound City? The area was rich in Missisipian culture. Now this is just a personal observation, but at the many campsites, that I personaly know of, I find that "Bird Points" which are actually war points, are in a considerable abundance. The frame in the picture I posted all came from one ridge and is just a fraction of those found there. I'd find several each trip there and I went most every day as it was just a mile from my house. Cahokia's a facinating place and the surface has barely been scratched. Monks Mound is the lagest mound in North America.  They built a museum right next to it. If you ever get the chance you should visit there. There's another, little known, ceremonial center on the Missouri side of the river called Quiver River. Not many even know of it's existance. I was born in Missouri but my aunt lived close to Cahokia and I played there often when it was all still owned by farmers and before the significance of the site was known. Trust me, it covers a LOT of ground. Where I was born was just south of there and right beside the Mississippi River. While digging to lay a water pipe my father uncovered an awesome stone carving of a Shaman. I could show you camps where people lived from at least 10,000 years ago right up through the Mississipian Culture and the  later tribes such as the Osage. Their burial grounds are on the high ridges overlooking the campsites and rivers. I could show you places where there are ancient carvings in the rocks too. Some known, some not known. You know Swamp, fact is I don't think everything there is to know will ever be known. But it sure is interesting trying to find out. There's a ton of speculations and the danger is being too quick to accept them untill proven beyond a doubt. If you'd like, next time I'm up that way I'll pick you up some of the literature. A lot of it's free. I wish you enough.

[Swampman]

There are tons of interesting theories.  I believe man was much more mobile than once was thought.

[Spirithawk]

There are tons of interesting theories.  I believe man was much more mobile than once was thought.

Thus why I insist that so called "Primitive Man" was not so primitive. There was a time when being mobile was necesary to mere survival and for a variety of reasons. If you'd like, reread my previous post. As an after thought I added a bit about Cahokia.

[Pat/Rick]

Very interesting S., and S.  Wasn't Cahokia also later a french trade settlement IIRC? It sounds that its trade "roots" go back very far indeed. It would be interesting to find out if the imaging satellites they use for topography have ever been used to locate trade routes in the early Americas.

  Spirithawk, Thankyou for sharing your artifacts with us! There is digging allowed on some private land around here but certainly not on public.

[slim rem 7]

i commend those on this thread.. some wth opinions,,but it seems mostly interested in the truth
whether it supports thier opinion or not..
just an observation ..
 that kinda honest seeking to discover more truth.. well it just may find or discover ,, a lot more truth..
 in the end the truth as can best be discovered,,is after all the only thing that matters ..
 this discussion is kinda refreshing..

[BUGEYE]

my wife and I went on a cruise to mexico in april and took an excursion to chichen Itza and saw the myan ruins with the big pyramid and it's caused many conversations between my wife and I.  this stuff is so interesting.
how could those people do all that they did without home depot?
in my mind, they accomplished far more than modern man has. my hat is off to them.

[Spirithawk]

I think it is pretty well know that the original founding fathers were keen on discovering anything possible about the ancients, the Louisiana Purchase primarily for this purpose for discovery of the Mound Peoples.  Lewis and Clark expedition were on this project...maybe primarily, too.


..TM7
.

Yep, it just took a while to wise up. Originaly, the Europeans didn't believe that "Primitive Savages" could build such things. There are many stone structures that engineers today scratch their heads at and say that they simply could not do and can't even guess at how they were done.


Pat/Rick, Yes, it became a large French trade center. The European association with Cahokia began over 300 years ago, with Father Pinet’s mission to convert the Cahokian and Tamaroa Indians to Christianity in the later part 1696. Father and the Seminary of Foreign Missions of Quebec began with building a log church. It is dedicated to the Holy Family. During the next 100 years, Cahokia became one of the largest French colonial towns in the Illinois Country.

[Swampman]

I saw a show on those stone lodges.

Here's a recent discovery.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2010-10-03/ancient-indians-once-lived-whats-now-ga-city-park

[Spirithawk]

i commend those on this thread.. some wth opinions,,but it seems mostly interested in the truth
whether it supports thier opinion or not..
just an observation ..
 that kinda honest seeking to discover more truth.. well it just may find or discover ,, a lot more truth..
 in the end the truth as can best be discovered,,is after all the only thing that matters ..
 this discussion is kinda refreshing..

I have a few friends who are archeologists. I've had them tell me that often it is the amature archeologists that make amazing finds. Because amatures  can spend more time in the field than pro's and have nore access to private property. Saddly though, most are of the grab and sell stripe. All they care about is the dollar value not the historical value. Artifacts that wash out in the rain are no where near as important as those still in the layer of soil they were deposited in because those studying them can then tell a lot more about those who made them. Another reason is that amatures look at things with fresh perspectives because they haven't had theories drilled into them. Just too dumb to know better but in a good way. When I hunt artifacts I say a prayer to the Grandfathers asking their guidance. When I find a piece I leave a pinch of Grandfather Tobacco or corn meal as a way of saying thank you and paying respect. Many I hunt with at first laughed at my ritual. That is untill they saw me simply walk up and pick up pieces right at their feet on ground they'd thouroughly just searched, lol I've even challenged them to look down and they see nothing, yet there is a piece in plain sight. Shocks them when I just reach down and pick it up.   A lot can be said for paying proper respect.

Swamp, have you ever had the oportunity to visit such sites? With your love of history you really should at least once. I think maybe you could understand the feelings and thoughts that will run through your mind on such sites. Visiting such places can go a long way towards understanding those that made them. Those places will talk to you if you listen.

[southernutah]

Out here without the vegetation there is a lot out in the open and a lot of vandalism. Here are a few pics with carving that have petroglyphs over the top of them dating the carving as older. There are legends of advanced  groups that were driven back to the mid west by invaders and later wiped out. Old fellow told me that the west was the land of lakes and islands. Most big valleys  here have high water marks way up on the mountain sides. I have thousands of pictures of petroglyphs, pictographs and monumensts/markers

[Spirithawk]

Out here without the vegetation there is a lot out in the open and a lot of vandalism. Here are a few pics with carving that have petroglyphs over the top of them dating the carving as older. There are legends of advanced  groups that were driven back to the mid west by invaders and later wiped out. Old fellow told me that the west was the land of lakes and islands. Most big valleys  here have high water marks way up on the mountain sides. I have thousands of pictures of petroglyphs, pictographs and monumensts/markers

I have many friends in the 4 corners area. I hope to vist out there some day soon. I know of a few places with petroglyphs here in the Ozarks. I'll have to dig through my pictures. Wado, thanks very much for sharing your pics.

[CannonKrazy]

Spirithawk thats a mighty fine collection you have there. Thanks for sharing the pictures and the stories.

[Spirithawk]

Spirithawk thats a mighty fine collection you have there. Thanks for sharing the pictures and the stories.

You are most welcome and thank you. Those are just a small portion of my collection.

[Pat/Rick]

There are quite a few petroglyphs from the Makahs on the coast of WA. They are west of lake Ozette and a 3 mile backpack. The are scattered along the beach in various locations. One called "wedding rock" of a man and woman, fish, whales, canoes,and sailing ships are a few that I have seen there. When the dig was being conducted of the longhouses I made two trips there, extremely fascinating to see the artifacts soaking in the tanks.Effegies(sp?),tools, bone hooks and awls to name a few. Ft Vancouver, west of where I am has ongoing digs from time to time. Very near where I am at in the west end of the columbia river gorge are other sites but I doubt they will ever be explored due to lack of funding. The Yakima (Yakama)  who live in this area would sometimes bury at the base of large rock outcroppings. That is why I am glad that digging is not allowed.
Spirithawk, always good to give offering to the Spirits. Alot of my friends snicker when I give a prayer of thanks and honor to, after killing game. It just seems right to me to do so.

[scootrd]

The Tarim mummies threw China into a frenzy when discovered , They always claimed autonomy , that their culture evolved pure with no outside  influences. Yet low and behold , Here are the Tarim Mummies, found in Chinese desert 2000 thousand years old with European traits long red hair, long noses,  Caucasian skin etc.. So well preserved in the desert sands even parts of their clothes were intact . This is long long before scientists previously believed Indo Europeans made it to China. There is also evidence they may have domesticated the horse and brought the wheel to china....Ooops , that blows a bunch of theories.

[beerbelly]

I don’t care who The First Americans were. I am worried about who will be the last Americans. Now it looks as though it will be Mexicans!
                           Beerbelly

[Dixie Dude]

When Desoto came through the south, he said there was a large Indian city in Alabama with a chief Tuscaloosa.  This was in the 1500's.  Later there was no city when whites finally settled Alabama.  It has been said that 90% of the disappearance of the Native Americans were due to white mans diseases.  I think the diseases became rampant in the cities the Indians built, so survivors abandoned them and reverted back to hunters and gatherers by the time America was spreading.  Those who survived either fought the whites or adaped the white culture like the Cherokee.  Then of course they were forced to Oklahoma.  Desoto probably spread by going through the south, smallpox, STD's, etc. 

[SHOOTALL]

I don’t care who The First Americans were. I am worried about who will be the last Americans. Now it looks as though it will be Mexicans!
                           Beerbelly

By chance did you mean United States citizens ? Mexicans are Americans like everyone from the tip of South AMERICA to the top of North AMERICA . 

[oldandslow]

I live fairly close to what is evidence of earliest man on this continent. It contains evidence of Clovis man radiocarbon dated to 11,600 years before the present time. I have been thru the museum twice but haven't made it out to the excavation site. Google Blackwater Draw for more information. There is a place in the Sandias where the remains are thought to be even earlier than that by a couple of thousand years.

There are several interesting places to see evidence of early man in NM. There is an extensive petroglyph site on the west side of Sierra Blanca mountain south of Carrizozo and also another west of Albuquerque. The cliff dwellings north of Silver City and Chaco Canyon are more examples.

Man has been running around on the North American continent for a long time however he got here.

[SHOOTALL]

Maybe this was the garden he was run out of 

[Pat/Rick]

oldandslow, that sounds like a neat place! I have been planning on going to new mexico for vacation for awhile. This urges that desire even more. I will be looking at blackwater draw tonight. Are there alot of museums in the area that showcase early times?