HMM....I wonder if I could....

[D Humbarger]

Since they don't make Huntsman or Sidekicks is there any reason that I couldn't buy a 500S$W barrel.
Drill & tap the chamber for a 209 breech plug and off to the races! What are your thoughts?

[bikerbeans]

Not sure on the 500 S&W as the bore might be a tad oversize for the 50 cal MZ bullets.  Would have to check to make sure.  

I know you can shoot conicals out of a 45-70 because I did it this morning.  I didn't convert my gun, I just wanted to see if it would work.  I shot a couple of 385 grain conicals over 80 grains of BH209 with a overpowder fiber wad.  POI at 50 yards was right in the middle of several rounds of 397 cast 45/70s I had just shot.  I made a temp. breech plug by cutting off a 45-70 brass to 1" (brass was already split at the mouth), repriming and loading the short case.  This brass was fired and NOT resized so that it fit fairly tight in the chamber.  Then loaded the gun like any other MZ.  I did verify that 80 grains (volume measurement) of BH209 would keep the conical about 1/2 into the rifling, probably 90 or 95 grains to have the bullet completely in the rifling.  If you made a breechplug for the barrel it would take less powder to keep your bullet in the rifling.  The 45 conical went down the barrel without a lot of resistance but I have loaded conicals into regular MZs that went in just as easily.  If I where to hunt with this setup I would mark my Ramrod and check the bullet seating quite a few times as I moved through the woods just to make sure it stayed put.

good luck.

BB

[quickdtoo]

My 500 Handi slugs .501".

Tim

[Slufoot]

Hello  D Humbarger,  I have already been down that road. I bought my 500 S&W barrel for the sole purpose of making a muzzleloader out of it. The bore is too tight, as Tim stated his measures .501". Most 50 caliber muzzleloaders barrels are going to slug around .508 - .510" and the projectiles are made to fit this bore size.
The only bullet/sabot combo that I was able to force down my .500 bore was so tight I basically had to hammer them through, not something you would want in a hunting rifle. The only sabot that "MIGHT" work would be the ones that were made for the old discontinued Gonic muzzleloaders, they supposedly had tighter bores than the other 50 caliber muzzleloaders and offered their own sabots.
Since my 500 S&W barrel wasn't going to workout, I then turned to my 45-70 barrel. As bikerbeans discovered this morning, the .458" bore is ideal for the 45 caliber muzzleloader components. I installed a Savage breechplug in my barrel, lapped the sharp edge of the crown to keep from shaving sabots, put on a Huntsman forend and made my own retracting ramrod. This gun will outshoot my Savage any day of the week.
I have been shooting it for about three years now and absolutely love it. Last year I got four does with it from 20 to about 150 yards. The 200 grain Hornady SST in the Blue Smooth Harvester sabot is very accurate and holds up extremely well at longer ranges.
If you want to build your own muzzleloader, I'd recommend a 45.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot
 

[D Humbarger]

Looks as though I will need to go the 45 route then.  Thanks for all the info.

[Busta]

One thing to remember, muzzleloader bores are measured from the lands, center fire bores are measured from the grooves. So, if you have a .501" land measurement such as quickdtoo, that is a very common .50 caliber muzzleloader bore. Most .50 calibers measure from .499" to .504", with T/C and CVA's mostly in the .500" to .501" range, Knights in the .502" to .503" range, and Whites in the .504". The fast twist of the .500 S&W Handi at 1 turn in 18.75" might be a little fast for most bullets, other than long heavy conicals or saboted bullets like the 435 gr SSB from Buffalo Bullets. Rifling should be about 0.0045" or so deep x 2 = 0.009" + 0.501" = 0.510" center fire bore diameter. The Huntsman muzzleloader nominal bore is listed as .501" at the lands, and .510" at the grooves. Disregard the .45 cal Huntsman info in the below pic from my 2003 Owners manual, they never brought it past production, but do look at the nominal bore measurements for both calibers. ALL of my H&R/NEF .50 caliber bores actually measure .502", just like my Knights.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a377/rburns_/Recommended%20Loads/018.jpg

So, the .500 could make a good muzzleloader, but I would agree that the .45-70  with the 1 turn in 20" is better suited, and a proven twist. My .451 caliber White uses a 1 turn in 20" twist, and shoots lights out. I  have a Kinght Super D.I.S.C. barrel that is a 1 turn in 20" as well. I purchased a 24" Stainless Steel .45-70 barrel with the intention of making a nice .45 caliber muzzleloader barrel for my Huntsman, but have had too many irons in the fire to get this off the back burner for this year.

Here is some information about my .45-70 barrel with the 1-20" twist I copied from another post I did a while back. Can't rely on memory anymore, CRS ya know.

The bore diameter is the same as muzzleloaders, at .4515" cal. The groove diameter is .4575".

Just remember, centerfire rifle caliber measurements are measured at the groove, such as .458". Muzzleloader calibers are measured at the lands.

I have slugged the bore, so I have exact measurements of this barrel.

The .451"-.453" conicals will do just fine, and the saboted bullets fit the bore very well too. I also have a White M-98 Elite (1:20) that has a bore diameter of .4515", a Knight Disc Elite (1:30) that is .4505", and an old Knight D.I.S.C. (1:20) that has a .453" bore.

If you are just looking to have a .50 caliber H&R/NEF Muzzleloader, there are several used ones for sale out there that you don't have to go through the work of making one. The Huntsman barrels will fit the late model SB1 and SB2 frames, and the Sidekick is a stand alone muzzleloader. I have one .50 caliber NEF Huntsman, a .50 caliber NEF Sidekick, and a .50 caliber H&R (branded) Sidekick, all in Stainless Steel. The Huntsman is my favorite muzzleloader of 13, and that includes my Whites, Knights, and T/C.

So, with all of that said, the .500 S&W Handi barrel COULD make a good muzzleloader, if the 1-18.75" twist would work for the type of bullets you want to shoot. IMO, the best rifling depth for muzzleloaders is between 0.003" and 0.0045" deep for saboted bullets and conicals, with all of the above in that ball park.

Keep us informed, if you go the .500 route.

[quickdtoo]

.501" is the groove diameter of the 500 Handi, not lands, that's one reason why the 385gr Rem bullets shot good, they measure .501-.502", kinda inconsistent but after sorting the fat from they skinny and being selective, they were consistently good shooting. 

Tim

[Slufoot]

Hey Busta, thanks for the GREAT info on the bore measurements!
As Tim stated,  .501" is the groove diameter of the 500 Handi, not lands. I tried to get several different projectiles down the bore of my 500 S&W barrel, I used ones that are way too loose for my Savage and you will be hard pressed to get them through the bore. Most sabots will get deformed trying to get them started in the bore of the 500 S&W barrel.

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

[Busta]

.501" is the groove diameter of the 500 Handi, not lands, that's one reason why the 385gr Rem bullets shot good, they measure .501-.502", kinda inconsistent but after sorting the fat from they skinny and being selective, they were consistently good shooting. 

Tim

Thanks for that information. You know, I think I actually knew that at one time that I was considering one of those for another project, but CRS will come back to haunt you. I only own one center fire rifle, a .223 Ultra Varmint, and am not really up on center fire bore diameters. Well, actually I own the centerfire 45-70 barrel, but it hasn't ever had anything down the tube, other than a slug and a few conical and saboted bullets to check for fit. When I think of bore diameters, I automatically go into the muzzleloader mode of thinking, and was thinking the .500 S&W was actually a .510" center fire bore with .501" land measurements.

I guess it might make a conical shooter, if you could size some bullets to the land diameter. Better to just find a good used or the rare NIB/NOS Huntsman or Sidekick, if you want to go the .50 caliber route.

[D Humbarger]

Busta that is great info you just passed on.  You're right about buying rather than having to build.
Living in Louisiana where we now have a "Primitive" deer season & no longer have a "muzzleloader"
season muzzleloaders are really cheap now & pretty much worthless in Louisiana.  I'm hoping to find something at the pawn shops or gunshows.  I also hunt in Arkansas they require muzzle loaders.

[Spanky]

Do you guys think Wayne York would thread a 45-70 chamber for a breech plug?  I'd be interested in a 45-70 muzzleloader.



Spanky

[gjdykeman]

Spanky, just for you. My 45/70 barrel I hand made into a muzzleloader shoots like crap. Maybe it's me but I couldn't get it to shoot with black powder or subs. I tried smokeless loaded from the breach with real bullets low pressure and high pressure, no accuracy. I found my design was flawed. The 209 primer sat right on the face of the receiver and cratered it with high pressure loads. The "black" fowled terrible. The twist was wrong. I am disappointed in the experiment but learned many valuable lessons. I use this for PA muzzleloader season, any muzzleloader, and it works. 14g Unique, 451 patched round ball, Stuffed down the tube, very low pressure but accurate out to 75/100y. Probably 900 minus fps. I have plenty of real smoke poles to use and have killed many deer with them. A Handyholic project but not really successful. The only load I haven't tried is 45 cal Powerbelts with 100g pellets. Tried 50g pellets and patched 300g bullets, worked but had to completely disassemble and clean gun after 3 shots. Many key holes with other loads. PS I had to use a hand hammer to ram all loads except the round balls.

[Forestclimber]

Why couldn't you have someone ream out the barrel and have it rifled to a 54 caliber roundball twist then install a breech plug? Or a 54 caliber conical rifling?

[gjdykeman]

Probably, rifling is very difficult, I have learned, and expensive. I believe not the Handy way. The barrel I got was ruined, the lug destroyed and the extractor welded up. My friend and I saved it in his machine shop. It was a project and enjoyable. If I was intense about the inline muzzleloader, i would buy a new one. A Savage ML10 if any. A Huntsman barrel maybe. The season here is 1 week, does only. I have a 45 cal CVA Kentucky long rifle, caplock, with a scope and a matching flintlock with fire sites. I have a Traditions 50 cal modern flintlock with tang sites. I have a Rossi 50 cal inline with a 3X9 scope. I have a CVA double barreled 12 gage muzzleloading shot gun, really kicks hard.  69 cal balls, dead on at 75y. You just can't have too many Hand's, I have been told. It was the project, it was fun and not a waste of time. I "will" use all Handy guns this season including the 12g barrel I just got off of gendoc. It's the hunt. PS when I was poor and raising two wife's and five kids the black powder guns were all I had and could afford. Killed lots of stuff.