How about the Rem 405 gr. JSP factory 45-70 ammo for hogs?

[tacotime]

Do y'all think this factory 45-70 ammo is adequate for hogs up to 250 lbs up to 150 yards?

Thanks.

[mcwoodduck]

To steal a line from Altlaw,
" They don't bounce off"  That line still cracks me up.
Low recoil hard hitting and a great bullet that will open up, even if it does not it is still larger than a 243 will open.
The large bullet will ground any sized hog.
Go out and shoot a few first.  Recoil is mild, about like a 20 ga even out of my light Ruger No 3 Carbine.
Through my 45-70's the 405 hit higher than the 300 grainers.  The slower round is effected by recoil.  and the slight recoil tosses the bullet a little higher by the time the bullet exits the gun.

[BBF]

The energy is there and the bullet will do the job.
However you need to be sure on the distance. With the rainbow trajectory of that cartridge you need to know the distance. I recommend a laser range finder and give some thought to your ZERO range.

[Swampman]

I won't use any other factory ammo and I feel well armed out to 500 yards.  It's equal worked very well in the 1870s and I don't think stuff is any harder to kill or hit today.

[jmayton]

Quite adequate.

[tacotime]

Thanks.  Good news.  I was considering going to the Win. 300 JHP if I was expecting to see some big hogs.  But that is tough on the shoulder.  I'll go 405 gr until somebody or some hog can prove that not good enough...

This guy is sighted for 100 yds.  A fair average range for where I will be.

I also shoot the 405 from a Ruger 3, and found it quite mild, especially compared to some wild claims I had read about 45-70 recoil, and the Ruger 3 itself.  The 300 was stiff though and I did find the 300 shot well below the 405 on the target.

[BBF]

...... The 300 was stiff though and I did find the 300 shot well below the 405 on the target.

 That would be the normal comparing fast apples vs slow apples.

Lets have a realistic look at that cartridge for a 500 yard shot
Remington lists a muzzle velocity of 1330 fps in a factory load. At 500 yard you got 870 ft/sec and 680 ftlb left.

Trajectory for a 200 yard zero would put the bullet 12 inch high at 100 and 240 inch below your point of aim at 500 yard.

Trajectory for a 300 yard zero would put your bullet 25 inch above your POA at 100 yards. 28 inch above POA at 200 yards and 32 inch below POA at 500 yards.

[mcwoodduck]

At 1880 feet per second the 300 grain bullet excapes the bore before any effect of recoil is seen.
At 1350 feet per second the 405 grain bullet is tossed up as the bullet is at the muzzle when recoil starts and the slight incline of the barrel during that split second of time is what makes the 405 hit higher.
If you were to reverse the two speeds the 300 would be hitting higher.
If you were able to lock the rifle down both rounds at either speed would hit the same at 100 yards.
Over greater distance the slower projectile will fall further.  Only because oject fall X" per second.
Over 500 yards the bullet moving 1880 FPS will fall  .8 X (math = 500 yards = 1500 feet and the bullet and the bullet will impact in less than a second  Of course that is in a vaccume as the air will slow the bullet down and air density will have more of an effect.   Also the design of the bullet will have some effect.  But that is a discussion for another day).
The 1350 FPS bullet will take a little longer than a second and and will drop 1.11X inches.

[tacotime]

It's a bit of a tangent from the topic, but doesn't the barrel have to move instantly with recoil and the difference in trajectory is actually a question not of "if" the bullet is affected by barrel movement, but "how much" the bullet is affected by barrel movement due to different bullet speeds?

In any case, the 405 will be going out on hog patrol unless it somehow shows a weakness against the critters.

 

[BBF]

You got it right. There is movement for both, the slower bullet exists later so the barrel has more time to move.

[swordfish]

Do y'all think this factory 45-70 ammo is adequate for hogs up to 250 lbs up to 150 yards?
Thanks.

Yup, no problem.

[thejanitor]

...... The 300 was stiff though and I did find the 300 shot well below the 405 on the target.

 That would be the normal comparing fast apples vs slow apples.

Lets have a realistic look at that cartridge for a 500 yard shot
Remington lists a muzzle velocity of 1330 fps in a factory load. At 500 yard you got 870 ft/sec and 680 ftlb left.

Trajectory for a 200 yard zero would put the bullet 12 inch high at 100 and 240 inch below your point of aim at 500 yard.

Trajectory for a 300 yard zero would put your bullet 25 inch above your POA at 100 yards. 28 inch above POA at 200 yards and 32 inch below POA at 500 yards.

Although this is true- if practiced out to the yardage posted, it isn't a problem. (except maybe the energy left at 500 yds) But with the proper practice there is no doubt the cartridge is capable. I can't do it, but I have never practiced for such things either. I see both sides of this "arguement" but just because I can't make a shot doesn't mean someone who does it all the time for fun on a gong range can't.... just my .02  thejanitor

[tacotime]

I tried the 405 grain over the weekend twice on hogs at about 50 yards with miserable results.  Both ran away at full speed and left no blood and were never seen again.  At the end of the weekend I went to the rifle range and it turns out the 45-70 sighted at 100 yards is almost 6 inches high at 50 yards.  Plenty to shoot over the two I shot at.  I had never seen the 50 yard POI listed on any 100 yard zero ballistic chart.  I had been thinking it was not more than an inch or two at 50 - WRONG.  Turns out a good cartridge is severly handicapped by a bad shot.

[BBF]

tacotime:

There is something very wrong here. My first guess is that how you shoot from the bench vs your shot at the hunt has more to do with the POI then the ballistics of the cartridge.

According to Hornady Ballistics software a Remington 405 gr bullet at 1330fps should be 2.1 inch high at 50 yards for a 100 yard zero.

[tacotime]

Then back to the range this weekend...

It seemed like a lot of arc but the two test shots at 50 were from a rest with a decent grip on the forearm, and grouped within a half inch.  The shots in the field were from a rest with a grip on the forearm but not particularly firm.  I would think the firmer grip would reduce the apparent arc of the bullet on the range, but the actual result was still counter to the expected 2 inch over POI.   

I wonder if this particular gun and scope mount is a factor.  The Ruger #3 barrel (22 inches) has a fairly steep taper between the two mount bases, and I am not sure the scope itself is not slanted downward in relation to the barrel just a little more than I see on standard bolt action guns with scopes.  The two Weaver bases are correct for the gun, and a 4X Leupold is mounted. 

[BBF]

TT:
 I'm not sure I understand what you wrote. Could you duplicate on the range a POI of almost +6" at 50 yards with a 100 yard zero? If not then the only thing I can figure is that you hold that carbine very differently when shooting in the field versus the bench.

[tacotime]

Yes, the gun zeroed recently at 100 later fired a two shot 1/2 inch group about 5.5 inches high at 50.  If anything, the grip on the range was firmer than the two field shots, which were with rests, with light restraint.

I am assuming the 100 zero is still good.  When it was set at 100, it printed the only completely centered hole in the bullseye that I have ever shot in 40 years.

I'll check both 100 and 50 this weekend and see what's up...

[mcwoodduck]

Loose the scope and go back to the Iron sights.
If you need add a peep sight to the little carbine.
We are talking a 100 yard shot on a pig with a 458 caliber bullet.
Line up on the leg move back a fraction of an inch and shoot.
Bacon

[tacotime]

I have another one with iron sights for that.  This lightened and shortened one is a joy to carry and shoot with its old Leupold 4X compact scope, and is easier to use if 200+ yard shots arise.  Not that I am hoping for many of those.

[BBF]

You could Zero at 50 if you can live with a minus 4 inch at 100. On a good size hog, 4 inch isn't a big deal presuming it is a chest shot.

[jmayton]

Ok, tacotime, I think you need to fill in some blanks here.  What ammo was the rifle sighted in with at 100yds? Did you change ammo when you went hunting?  Did you confirm 100yd and 50yd POI at the same range session with the ammo used?  Given the possible variables, if you sighted in at 100 with the 300's, then switched to the 405's when hunting, that could account for the rise in POI.  If you didn't change then it may actually be that high at 50 and you just didn't know because you never confirmed that at the range.  A different rest or hold will move POI a bit, but not that much at 50yds, so I would think it's either the difference in ammo or the scope shifted.  I sight my rifle in with the ammo that I hunt with at 100yds and then fire a couple of shots at 50 just to know where it's hitting up close.

[tacotime]

The Rem 405 gr. factory ammo was used for all shots with a similar rest and grip.  I did confirm the 4-5 inch high at 50 again.  But then, however, the weak link here is probably going to turn out to be an erroneous result on the original 100 yard zero shot.  That original shot landed EXACTLY center of the bulleye.  I took that as proof and quit.  However, it was just one shot and at the range this weekend, not sure, but it looks like the actual POI at 100 might be 2 inches high or so.  That would help account for the 2 extra inches high at 50.  I couldn't confirm it fully because I ran out of time and the wind was very gusty.  I'll try again this weekend...  as usual... probably shooter error!

Thanks for the info!

[jmayton]

Sounds like the 100yd POI would be the problem then.  I'd shoot a bunch at that range and see what it's doing, then go back to 50 and see if it's in that 2-3" high range.

[BBF]

POI of 2 inch high at 100 yards results in 3.1 " high at 50  as figured from the Hornady Ballistics Calculator.

[JeffG]

From the XS scout rail,. and a 2x pistol scope on my Marlin GG I am 2" high at 50 yds, and dead nuts at 100.

[BBF]

TT
Re-reading your #18 post makes me think you should use another bullet for those 200 yard shots that you might anticipate. It would require a different zero, possibly step up the MV of the 405 grainers and don't forget the laser rangefinder.

Without fiddling around, those 300 gr WW could be just a good choice after all.

[tacotime]

I would use the 300 except for being so much less pleasant to shoot in this light rifle. 

The last range trip showed the 405gr around 2 high at 100.  Brought it down to zero, but did not get to test again at 50, but will this weekend.  Good thing is, I can test it side by side with another Ruger 3 with 4x fixed Leupold's mounted on both.

Meanwhile, trying to duplicate the factory 405 load with Reloader 7, a suggested load of 36 grains appeared above the factory velocity.  Trying 35 grains this weekend.  Hoping to match the factory for some less costly plinking rounds.

[BBF]

If you got 2400 it should be no problem to match the factory stuff with less powder and a cleaner barrel.

[tacotime]

Looks like the final answer was the original single zeroing shot at 100 in the dead center of the target, was not actually a zero, but a 2 inch low shot while the gun was sighted about 2 in. high, causing the +4 or so at 50 yards. I'll have to take all the blame here.  Thanks for the comments though!

[jmayton]

Good to know you got it figured out.  Now you can get to the important task of ridding the world of those dastardly pigs.