FLAG WAR IN NC.

[powderman]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/07/aclu-threatens-lawsuit-nc-town-does-remove-christian-flag-war-memorial/?test=latestnews



The A nti  C hristian  L iars  U nion, doing what they were designed to do. They have threatened to file suit to have a Christian flag removed from a city park. Citizens want their flag back, and Christian flags have popped up everywhere around town. POWDERMAN. 

[Pat/Rick]

Judges need to start dismissing law suits as frivelous.  The A.merican C.ommunist L.iberation U.nion needs to be tried under RICO statuates IMO.

[SHOOTALL]

This really needs to have its day in court. As long as the flag is not required by law to be there it is not a state supported church act. The act of govt. to stop the flag would seem the state is stopping church activity ? Its time we stop the spin

[Dixie Dude]

We had a situation here in a cemetary.  The Daughters of the Confederacy placed little confederate flags on all the identified Confederate veterans in the city cemetary.  A local black city council member caused a stink with the city council and was going to file a lawsuit.  He dropped it when he found out what they were doing, since it was small flags on individual graves.  

[BBF]

What does a Christian flag look like??

[Dixie Dude]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Flag

[powderman]

Since the Godless ones are so tolerant they will probably start flying the Christian flag on their lairs, uhhhhh, I mean mosques. POWDERMAN. 

[subdjoe]

This really needs to have its day in court. As long as the flag is not required by law to be there it is not a state supported church act. The act of govt. to stop the flag would seem the state is stopping church activity ? Its time we stop the spin

Agreed.  It has gotten to the point where any hint of Judaic or Christian symbols on public land are decried as breaching the establishment clause.  The burden needs to be on those complaining about it to show that these things somehow force them to believe or pray in a certain way, or impose special taxes or fees on them for not belonging to a certain sect. 

Might also be nice to see the efforts to suppress things like that flag as violating the free exercise clause. 

[MGMorden]

Might also be nice to see the efforts to suppress things like that flag as violating the free exercise clause. 

If the city redefines it's stance they may be able to allow the flag to be flown.

Rather than a city provided pole, they could possibly enact legislation that would allow any religious group to voluntarily place a flag pole and flag at the site.  Making it an option for citizens to do on their own may (not definitely) satisfy the establishment clause.  That said, if a Wiccan decides that they want to fly a Pentagram flag there then you'll have no recourse to stop them without taking them all back down.  That's the way it works - close it all out or open it up to participation by the populace and accept whatever comes in. 

[powderman]

if a Wiccan decides that they want to fly a Pentagram flag there then you'll have no recourse to stop them without taking them all back down.



Like islam, wicca is a Godless cult, not a religion. POWDERMAN. 

[S.S.]

the A.C.L.U. needs to represent all of us against the brady campaign,
Handgun control inc. and anybody else that has violated our RIGHT to
keep and bear arms all these years! How do you think they would handle
a request like that? I would call a Constitutional right the truest form of a civil liberty!

[MGMorden]

if a Wiccan decides that they want to fly a Pentagram flag there then you'll have no recourse to stop them without taking them all back down.



Like islam, wicca is a Godless cult, not a religion. POWDERMAN.  

There is no real difference between religion and cult.  Wicca is a religion like many others, and it's followers enjoy the same right to practice their religion as you do yours.

It's a double standard.  You want the state to tear down anything you don't agree with, but to promote your own religion.  That equates to a state sponsored religion.  You can't play nice, and so someone ends up taking the ball away so nobody can play.

[powderman]

mgmorden. The difference between my religion and those cults is Jesus Christ, the only way to salvation. I worship the one true God. The muslims see God through the rantings of a madman, pedophile, rapist, and murderer mohamed, his idea of God does not exist, therefore I call them Godless.  The wiccans are way out there in space. They worship trees, blades of grass, and have adopted the idols of old Egypt, golden jackals and other statues of animals, all false Gods. They also butcher small animals in their rituals.The only good thing about wicca is they aren't murdering anybody, that we know of. Both of those are deadly cults that will get them nowhere, well it will, but not eternal salvation in Heaven. I've seen firsthand how islam poisons peoples minds. How do I know I'm right?? I feel Jesus in my heart and thats a feeling aetheists like you have never known so I can't explain how it feels because you have nothing to compare that feeling to. POWDERMAN. 

[BBF]

I really really want to......................but I shouldn't !!

[powderman]

I really really want to......................but I shouldn't !!

Feel free to express your opinion. IF you can read this, if not I reckon you have me on iggy again, but if you did you didn't see my post, nor will you see this one, uhhh, maybe. POWDERMAN. 

[MGMorden]

mgmorden. The difference between my religion and those cults is Jesus Christ, the only way to salvation. I worship the one true God.

All based on a matter of opinion.  You see, you think they're wrong, they think you're wrong.  I think you're all wrong.  The law, very wisely, says let each of you worship in what way you see fit.  To try and define away all the other religions as "cults" rather than religions to get around the wording completely and utterly destroys the whole purpose of the first amendment.  It's the equivalent of anti's claiming that what we have these days are rifles and shotguns, not "arms", and so they aren't covered by the second amendment.  Anybody can see that the argument has no merit except to those making desperate attempts at subverting the constitution.

The government involvement basically boils down to this: would you be offended if you saw a flag of a pentagram, or the Islamic moon symbol, or a yin-yang, or a flag of Bhudda, flying above government property?  If so, then you see the position of the other groups.  If you could live with those being there and fly your flag along-side them in a voluntary fashion, then some agreement could possibly be reached where each group could place their own flag or symbol.  If you cant peacfully coexist though, then they're all going to end up having to be taken down. 

[subdjoe]

They should see if anyone from around there fought in Missouri during the War For Southern Independence.  Then they could fly the Sterling Price Flag.

[powderman]

would you be offended if you saw a flag of a pentagram, or the Islamic moon symbol, or a yin-yang, or a flag of Bhudda, flying above government property?



America was not founded by any of those mentioned. it was founded by Christians. Yes I would be offended and angered just knowing that My country had sunk so low.
I knew that explaining things would be a waste of time. You don't understand because you have no spiritual feelings. Sorry I wasted my time. POWDERMAN. 

[scootrd]

America was not founded on Christianity. Our founding Fathers were men of Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. Most were Deists.

[powderman]

America was not founded on Christianity. Our founding Fathers were men of Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. Most were Deists.

They dang sure weren't muslims. POWDERMAN. 

[subdjoe]

America was not founded on Christianity. Our founding Fathers were men of Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. Most were Deists.

No, that is a bunch of revisionist clap-trap. A Big Lie that has been repeated often enough and loud enough that many believe it without bothering to actually check the words of the founders and framers.  MOST were solid members of major sect congregations.  In fact, not quite half held some sort of degree form a seminary or Bible college.  A very few were "deists."

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

and


"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."

James Madison
4th U.S. President

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.

If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."

Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

Take careful note of this next one:

atrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

John Jay
1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society

"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement "for the sins of the whole world," and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve."

"In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible."


“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."



Yeah, nothing but non-Christian "deists" in the bunch.

[powderman]

SUBJOE. Well said and all true Sir. Thanks for the response. POWDERMAN. 

[scootrd]

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Their views on the proper role of politics and religion can also be seen in the Bill of Rights, or the first ten amendments to the Constitution. The very first of these says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


The Founding Fathers were religiously-diverse; They were, collectively, no more “Christian” than they were “Deist” or “Unitarian” .Not only did the religious views vary from one to another, many were eclectic thinkers, and offered, different views about religion.

Article XI from the Treaty of Tripoli
"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Thomas Jefferson
No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.

John Adams
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination."

James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Benjamin Franklin
Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England."

[powderman]

Now, explain to me how flying a Christian flag in an obscure corner of ANY park would be forcing religion on anybody?? Ridiculous. POWDERMAN. 

[subdjoe]

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

"

Their views on the proper role of politics and religion can also be seen in the Bill of Rights, or the first ten amendments to the Constitution. The very first of these says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Yes, "or prohibiting THE FREE EXERCISE...."  That part gets left out or ignored again and again.  Now tell us...how is flying a "christian flag" from a public flagpole "establishing" a State religion?  Are people required to attend a certain church?  Pray in a certain way?  Pay special taxes or fees because they don't follow a certain sect?  Please, I want to know how Congress has established a national religion.

The Founding Fathers were religiously-diverse; They were, collectively, no more “Christian” than they were “Deist” or “Unitarian” .Not only did the religious views vary from one to another, many were eclectic thinkers, and offered, different views about religion.

Ah...so now they weren't all deists, as the claim is so often made.  And, how does their being "eclectic thinkers, and offered, different views about religion" have any bearing on the claim that flying a flag "establishes" any religion?

Article XI from the Treaty of Tripoli
"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Yes...the United Stated did, and does, not have an established State religion such as England, Spain, Rome, and the mohammedean states did.  And that it was not on reasons of religion that US troops had attacked ships and land targets of the mohmmedean states. It says that unlike many other nations, the United States recognized that religion was a matter for the individual and was not something for the State to impose. 

Thomas Jefferson
No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.

And?  Are you saying that Jefferson was rabidly anti-Christian?  What I see is that he was a strong advocate of the Free Exercise clause. Jefferson also made sure that, at government expense, ministers of various Christian sects came and preached at the White House.  Did that somehow "establish" a state religion?  No, it did not.

John Adams
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination."

OK, and he saw that historically some people had misused Christianity for political ends.  And he said that he could not put credence in a certain sect.  What does that have to with either the Establishment Clause or the Free Exercise clause?

[

b]James Madison[/b]

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Again pointing out the historic fact of the abuse of religion, not just Christianity if you look into history, for political gain.  Exactly why the founders put in the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses.  Does nothing to advance any claim that he was a "deist" or that putting up a "christian flag" somehow forces people to attend a certain church or pay special fees/taxes for not attending.

Benjamin Franklin
Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England."

See all my above comments.

[powderman]

SUBJOE. As always, good post, but ya gotta be careful stating facts and making sense, it scares the libs. POWDERMAN. 

[MGMorden]

Further nonsense. 

It's not in question that some of the founding fathers were Christian.  Not all of them were however, and some who were were not nearly as devout as you'd think. 

The reality is that many of them had their doubts, and the Constitution and first ammendment were written accordingly.  This whole notion that we are a "Christian Nation" didn't really come into being until the Second and Third "Great Awakenings" occured, long after the founding fathers were gone.

Thomas Jeffson wrote in 1823:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Thomas Jefferson in 1779:

". . . no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

Thomas Jefferson in 1813:

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

Thomas Paine in 1794:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

Also by Paine in 1794:

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

Again:

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

Benjamin Franklin in 1790:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see, but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity, though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."

Sure you can find other quotes from other sources that show some support, but the reality is that these were not deeply religious men.  Many were considered Deist - the equivalent of what we in modern times call an Agnostic.

Careful with all those facts though.  Might hurt your head.

Now, in regards to:

Now, explain to me how flying a Christian flag in an obscure corner of ANY park would be forcing religion on anybody?? Ridiculous.

It's not.  However, lets look at the First Ammendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

subdjoe basically already makes this point.  It doesn't just say it cannot force a religion on people.  It says that it can make no laws "prohibiting the free exercise therof".  What that means is that if you allow ANY religion a particular boon, you must allow it to ALL of them.  If you want to allow a Christian flag you would, at a minimum, have to allow any relgious group to fly their flags in the location.  To do otherwise would be treating them differently.  You can't make an exception for one.

Any time when you involve government laws, priviliges, acts, property, or anything else dealing with the government, if you want the Christianity treated any differently than any other religion, you're going to run afoul of the 1st ammendment.  Get over it.

[subdjoe]

Further nonsense. 


subdjoe basically already makes this point.  It doesn't just say it cannot force a religion on people.  It says that it can make no laws "prohibiting the free exercise therof".  What that means is that if you allow ANY religion a particular boon, you must allow it to ALL of them.  If you want to allow a Christian flag you would, at a minimum, have to allow any relgious group to fly their flags in the location.  To do otherwise would be treating them differently.  You can't make an exception for one.

Any time when you involve government laws, priviliges, acts, property, or anything else dealing with the government, if you want the Christianity treated any differently than any other religion, you're going to run afoul of the 1st ammendment.  Get over it.

First, treating them differently would still not be "establishing" a religion, or forcing anyone to do anything.  Second, at least here in California, we do see at least Buddhist flags, and prayer flags, on public grounds.  I find the prayer flags especially troublesome as by Buddhist teaching the flapping in the wind is a recitation of the prayer emblazoned on them - in effect forcing everyone to participate in those prayers.  Then Assemblyman Yee (D-SF) several years ago introduced a resolution to make state owned buildings, and rented offices, to conform to the shamanistic practices of feng shui - thereby "establishing" a state religion and forcing anyone going into a state office to unwillingly participate in the ongoing prayer offered by the shamanisitc arrangement of objects in the office. 

We see spirit posts from sister cities in public parks, usually put in with with with the appropriate prayers and incantations, yet the same people who scream that a member of a city council saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes somehow establishes a religion (it happened in N. Calif), were either silent or on hand applauding and celebrating the tolerance, diversity, and inclusiveness.

If ALL religions were treated equally, I would say fine, that's fair.  But when almost all (99 44/100) efforts are to push only Christianity out of public view, then I have a problem.  And when people go out of their way to make themselves feel offended, and say that flying a flag is exactly the same as the Church of England under Elizabeth I being the state religion, when those who did not follow it were being, if not killed, then heavily fined for not attending services, (and that is what is meant by an established religion) I have a problem.

[powderman]

mgmorden. Do all aetheists keep copies of anti Christian literature or sayings on hand to  try and prove their non belief to themselves and others??? Are you posting this to convince yourself there is no God??? Cause you sure aint convincing me, or most others here. POWDERMAN. 

[MGMorden]

mgmorden. Do all aetheists keep copies of anti Christian literature or sayings on hand to  try and prove their non belief to themselves and others??? Are you posting this to convince yourself there is no God??? Cause you sure aint convincing me, or most others here. POWDERMAN. 

In the age of Google, I'm not sure why anybody would need to keep large amounts of literature around.  If I want to find a factoid I can find it in under 2 minutes without leaving the keyboard.

That aside, I'm not really trying to convince anyone of any religious ideal.  As a matter of fact, my position has always and consistently been to let people worship how they well please - just keep the government out of the affair.  Why is it so hard to accept that someone saying "We don't want to support YOUR religion with OUR tax dollars." isn't trying to convince you of anything, just trying to leave the rest of us out of your worship.

As a matter of fact, you'll notice that the VAST majority of atheists aren't out on some vendetta against anyone.  An atheist didn't start this topic.  We don't go door to door trying to "convert" people to atheism (the same certainly can't be said about many other groups).  For the most part, we just want to be left out of all the religious squabble.  Keeping the religion out of government (which involves us all) is a major step towards that.