Author Topic: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water  (Read 7414 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31302
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2010, 02:07:34 AM »
Scooter;
  I do hope you are "putting your money where your mouth is".
  
 How do you get to work? Do you walk or ride a bicycle ?     Do you work?

  Do you live in very minimum housing..say 300 sq ft ?   Do you wear fibers made from petro chemicals ?

  Or do you let your PeTA friends whine about the natural fibers..fur, wool etc ?

  I don't suppose you ever ride on one of those real fuel guzzlers (train, bus or airplane).

  Then of course, there are those huge planting, harvesting and processing machines..fuel guzzlers..all of them.. You don't eat food from a market do you? Of course it is brought in on 18 wheeler diesel trucks.. ;)

 ..And you surely must not live under an asphalt roof..ugh..the dirtiest of petroleum..

 ...But if you go to steel..mining, smelting, rolling, transporting and applying takes lots of petroleum.

  Note: My brother considering a purchase, looked over some waterfront land on Prince William Sound a few years after the spill. He found that part of the affected area had recovered well..other parts were still in a bind. The part which had recovered well was the part where the "enviro-whacko activists" had tried to clean it up. The efforts at "cleanup" only exacerbated the situation.
  Scoot: When petroleum is spilled and they haul that soil away, do you know where they take the soil and what happens to it ?


    I could keep going on but I assume you get the message.. QUIT PRETENDING TO BE A PETROLEUM VIRGIN !

   ...If you are not denying yourself the use of petroleum..then you carry as much guilt over the spills as the rest of us... ;) :D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline billy_56081

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8575
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2010, 02:14:26 AM »
So sootrd you are relying on others who have a monetary stake in this to give you information. I can't say as I have not been there.

I think IG has some coog questions for you. Are you an AlGore who condemns fossil fuels while you use them? How about you put your money where your mouth is. For one that means you will have to not answer this as your computed is partly made from and powered by fossil fuels.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2010, 03:08:02 AM »
Attacking the Science and going on defense, or trying to shift the argument, or conversation  is just ridiculous  - fact is Gulf oil spill will affect People , environment , wildlife for may many years to come. That's the science.

After that folks can say what they want , and proselytize all they wish , and throw around personal opinions  "it's not that bad" etc.

Well -  it is that bad , and the effects will be felt for a long time in our ecology. That's the science and the life cycle of how this crud breaks down in our earth.  The scientific facts are they are still finding the Affects of the Valdez 20+ years later a few inches below the shoreline of the sound just as they are in buzzards bay.

Then of course , feel free to choose to ignore the science and all the data and yearly reports. Stick head in the sand and keep to your generic opinions that are not supported or based upon any trues facts or economic impact studies , they are just as I say your opinions.  And they are wrong.

And Billy since I have just a few minutes , I'll address your obvious attempt to switch the topic.  - I don't believe the Christian Science Monitor has a monetary stake in their report on the Valdez and it's impact 20+ years later.

"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Dixie Dude

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4129
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2010, 03:35:37 AM »
What are the alternatives?  Hybrids are expensive and what are you going to do with the batteries after their useful life.  There are over 200,000,000 vehicles in the US alone.  Plastics, synthetics, medicines, asphalt, all made from oil.  We have to drill.  Even if there was an affordable alternative, it will take 20-30 years to transfer over the infrastructure.  There are vehicles on the road from the 80's and 90's now.  Takes a long time.  There are only two immediate alternatives worth trying.  Natural gas in fleet vehicles (40% of the imports), and switching to diesel.  A diesel is less expensive than hybrid, and you get 27 gallons of diesel from a barrel of oil vs 20 gallons of gasoline.  Germany did this about 20 years ago and 85% of their vehicles are diesel.  Diesels get 20-30% better milage than gasoline also.  This plus more fuel per barrel adds up to about a 40-50% reduction in oil usage.  Build the infrastruction for power transmission east and west of the plains and put as many windmills in the plains states as possible.  This would add about 20% more power to the electric grid.  Build more nuclear power plants where wind isn't economically feasible.  This would cut coal costs, and then build coal gassification plants to convert coal to oil.  However, this will all take 20+ years.  In the mean time we need oil period.  No way out of it.   

Offline jhm

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3169
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2010, 03:59:27 AM »
Am I wrong in thinking Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico dont sit on a pool of OIL and have ALWAYS set on a pool of OIL, both places have ALWAYS had OIL in their soils.   Jim

Offline Oldshooter

  • GBO subscriber and supporter
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6426
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2010, 05:30:15 AM »
Quote
So...Oldshooter...if you were President and an oil corp sprung a mega leak like BP did, and it was from some kind of experimental deep well apparently lacking proper safety and regulatory appliances resulting in the death of 11 workers,, and jeopardizing millions of people's health as well as the food chain and oceans....I take it you would not be bothered, or even suspend deep drilling for a while, and just let the oil corps keep drilling away without a looksee into their operations; and accept the megaleak as simple collateral damage that your grand kids can worry about at some later date..   Do I have that right..?


Great Question!

How many "accidents have happened in the Gulf? Yea I'd investigate and severely break a foot off in the ass of a irresponsible player. But and a BIG BUT is that it is a speck in the eye of the whole big oil picture in the Gulf and everywhere else for that matter. Thousands of wells have been drilled, thousands!


Yea its a bad thing for a spill to happen Do i need to repeat that!!!!!!!!!! But it aint the end of the world

But to call for a  "moratorium when we are in this state of Depression is like a College football team getting sanctions for recruiting offenses. ITS a Death sentence for the drilling Industry and the Gulf Coast!

But obama knew that its a back hand for lack of support ! Let NO CRISIS GO .......................................

The rigs left to drill elsewhere "South America", Cuba, oh and we'll suffer greater pollution should they have a spill there just like the mexican spill,..................... we will be on our own!

M y children are in greater danger from this president than they would ever be from an oil spill i assure you!
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Oldshooter

  • GBO subscriber and supporter
  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6426
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2010, 06:08:48 AM »
Quote
'deep well' drilling

Is where the big oil volume is! OH and must I repeat, they ARE still drilling, Just not for American oil fields just our enemies and the competition. We will be buying that oil making our enemies and competition bigger and stronger while we hold our heads up high and know we were once the best.  ::)

You guys have your say and vote your concience, I only hope there are more like me than you! for the future of my family and the country!
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31302
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2010, 09:50:55 AM »
  Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 07:37:25 AM » Quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TM says;
Oldshooter....actually the oil industry in the USA is not nationalized...they are private corps...so Obama didn't send well drillers to Brazil.,,,they went on their own. Obama had a deep well mortaorium in place after the BP boondoggle disaster...rightfully so, imo.

     TM;
  You're being just a bit disingenuous there. It costs something like $500,000 per day just to keep a deep well drilling rig in place, say nothing about operating it! Obama's advisers must have told him this and they also must have informed him that there are thousands of wells operating every day in the Gulf, with no such incidents. He knew full well that a 'moratorium' would force at least some of them to pull up stakes.
  Rather like "I only aimed and pulled the trigger, but I didn't shoot the victim..the gun did it"!
  
   Now let's add 2+2...  Soros needed deep well drilling rigs off Brazil, not shallow rigs. A blowout off the coast of Brazil would be just as enviromentally damaging as any..so why should "Mr President-of-the-world" think it is better to drill there?
  
  Many people have wondered why the blowout so conveniently occurred when Soros needed rigs. You're the great guy on conspiracies..why not check that one out ?

 
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31302
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2010, 10:16:19 AM »
Attacking the Science and going on defense, or trying to shift the argument, or conversation  is just ridiculous  - fact is Gulf oil spill will affect People , environment , wildlife for may many years to come. That's the science.

After that folks can say what they want , and proselytize all they wish , and throw around personal opinions  "it's not that bad" etc.

Well -  it is that bad , and the effects will be felt for a long time in our ecology. That's the science and the life cycle of how this crud breaks down in our earth.  The scientific facts are they are still finding the Affects of the Valdez 20+ years later a few inches below the shoreline of the sound just as they are in buzzards bay.

Then of course , feel free to choose to ignore the science and all the data and yearly reports. Stick head in the sand and keep to your generic opinions that are not supported or based upon any trues facts or economic impact studies , they are just as I say your opinions.  And they are wrong.

And Billy since I have just a few minutes , I'll address your obvious attempt to switch the topic.  - I don't believe the Christian Science Monitor has a monetary stake in their report on the Valdez and it's impact 20+ years later.



  Scoot;
  It still sounds like you are upbraiding and blaming somebody. I only suggested that if you are using petroleum-derived products, you are carrying just as much guilt as anyone in this discussion..not more, but at least the same..so who are you scolding ?
   Since I assume you, I and everyone here is dipping into the petro-pie, we should stop and think... If we want to get our oil from a source where any breakdown would be quickly capped, common sense would dictate that drilling on land and not deep in a mile or two of water would be a safer move. We have much safer and available drilling areas right here in the western USA and ANWR.
   In comparison, if we keep spending billion$$ in Muslim nations, that petroleum must still be shipped across waters...opening opportunities for more aquatic disasters (remember the Exxon-Valdez).
  Two critical points:
1) Opening our reserve fields could keep the mideast (Muslim)countries from playing games with our oil supply.

2) Opening our reserve fields would provide millions of jobs right here..for Americans

  Of course there may be rteasons why the one-party dictator may have forced these two issues:

1) He wants the Muslim countries to have a 'club' over us..

2) He wants to send billion$$ to the Muslim countries and wants them to gather the jobs & riches.

   ...Not hard to figure out !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dixie Dude

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4129
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2010, 10:27:59 AM »
We have about a 200 year supply in reserve on government lands.  Eisenhower created OPEC to buy theirs up first and hold ours for a major war if we ever had another one like WWII.  Most of it is out west and in Alaska.  A lot is deep water in the Gulf and eastern seaboard. We also have an 800 year supply of coal, a 200 year supply of natural gas with an estimated unproven reserves of 200 more years of natural gas.  Why are we importing?  We have enough wind power in the plains to power the whole country, but it can only be transmitted about 500 miles reasonably.  We have an unlimited supply of uranium tied up in granite rock mountains.  Granite is 5% uranium.  Why aren't we using more nuclear power?  We have about 200 ships and subs using it moving around.  Haven't had any major problems with them for over 50 years.  Build new power plants to Navy standards.  Shouldn't be a problem.  Half our trade deficit is oil.  Half is imports mostly from China.  If China would float their money like ours, we would cut over half our trade deficit with China.  If we produced our own oil, stop imports, threaten China with tarriffs if they don't let their money float, we could bring jobs back to America, and stop funding our enemies.  Everyone is afraid to make these hard choices.  It would require Libs giving up on their extreme environmental agendas.  It would also require a confrontation with China.  We should switch our trade to India which is a democracy and they also have cheap labor at the very least. 

Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2010, 10:42:09 AM »
Glenn Beck calls for  Chamber fund raising;

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/glenn-beck-calls-for-largest-day-of-fundraising-for-chamber-of-commerce/

Might get interesting!   ;D


*Due to overwhelming response, the Chamber requested the donation links be updated to allow listeners to contribute using the following link: U.S. Chamber of Commerce Small Business Nation. The links in the story reflect the update.



" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2010, 10:46:20 AM »
Glenn Beck calls for  Chamber fund raising;

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/glenn-beck-calls-for-largest-day-of-fundraising-for-chamber-of-commerce/

Might get interesting!   ;D


Had a feeling this story was gonna have legs. Be interesting to see what happens next.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2010, 10:55:17 AM »
They have already crashed at least two donation sites with the response and people are calling in their donations.

There is no two ways about it, The Beckster is a trouble making, pot stirring, rascal!! And I love it!!!   ;D
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline mrussel

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 838
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2010, 04:23:54 PM »
We have about a 200 year supply in reserve on government lands.  Eisenhower created OPEC to buy theirs up first and hold ours for a major war if we ever had another one like WWII.  Most of it is out west and in Alaska.  A lot is deep water in the Gulf and eastern seaboard. We also have an 800 year supply of coal, a 200 year supply of natural gas with an estimated unproven reserves of 200 more years of natural gas.  Why are we importing?  We have enough wind power in the plains to power the whole country, but it can only be transmitted about 500 miles reasonably.  We have an unlimited supply of uranium tied up in granite rock mountains.  Granite is 5% uranium.  Why aren't we using more nuclear power?  We have about 200 ships and subs using it moving around.  Haven't had any major problems with them for over 50 years.  Build new power plants to Navy standards.  Shouldn't be a problem.  Half our trade deficit is oil.  Half is imports mostly from China.  If China would float their money like ours, we would cut over half our trade deficit with China.  If we produced our own oil, stop imports, threaten China with tarriffs if they don't let their money float, we could bring jobs back to America, and stop funding our enemies.  Everyone is afraid to make these hard choices.  It would require Libs giving up on their extreme environmental agendas.  It would also require a confrontation with China.  We should switch our trade to India which is a democracy and they also have cheap labor at the very least.  

 Granite is NOT 5% uranium. SOME granites contain UP TO 10-20ppm (thats parts per million) uranium. You can look this up in a geology textbook. (Are you going to tell me the government is censoring them now?) Somehow I think your other statements are similarly flawed. Do you make these crazy claims up to "prove" your points thinking that science is so difficult to understand no one will notice,or just trust everything you read on some crackpot internet conspiracy web site. The only thing thats even remotly related to reality is your statement about coal and natural gas. We have alot and that can factor into our energy plans. For the most part,your post is just the rantings of a lunatic.

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2010, 04:28:14 PM »
They have already crashed at least two donation sites with the response and people are calling in their donations.

There is no two ways about it, The Beckster is a trouble making, pot stirring, rascal!! And I love it!!!   ;D

And why do you love it?

Don't you think Americans have the right to know who is funding the political ads in this years elections?

The US chamber of commerce should not be allowed to be bought by any foreign entity? I dont know if any foreign entity is or is not - but the simple fact is we all have a right to know. It's that simple. This the US CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.  

I just don't get Becks position on this. As an American I do want to know. If there is no conspiracy there is nothing to hide. There should be full disclosure.

President and CEO of the Chamber Thomas J. Donahue, is on record , on tape saying that outsourcing is “good for America”.  The Chamber has even claimed that most Americans actually benefit from outsourcing.

The so-called US Chamber of Commerce is on record as backing the outsourcing of US jobs to cheaper foreign sources of labor. That's one of the national group's main functions--as opposed to your local Chamber-as US Chamber of Commerce President Donahue said, "There Are Legitimate Values in Outsourcing. -- not only jobs, but work".

Tell that to my neighbor who lost his job because it was outsourced to to Malaysia. Which by the way is over 60% muslim.

So yes I want full disclosure for all political ads..period.  Whether from the chamber or anybody else. And yes it would weigh heavy with my vote if determined our elections are trying to be influenced  by China , or India , or Saudi Arabia or anybody.

and BTW ..if it is determined the chamber was using foreign funds to fund Ads Beck and his Audience just forked over their hard earned American dollars to help them do it... and since the chamber's own charter is to promote the outsourcing of American Jobs overseas .. Beck just asked his American Audience to help the chamber get rid of their own American jobs with their own hard earned American dollars out of their own pockets ....

so again I just don't get Becks position on this issue.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31302
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2010, 01:55:41 AM »
They have already crashed at least two donation sites with the response and people are calling in their donations.

There is no two ways about it, The Beckster is a trouble making, pot stirring, rascal!! And I love it!!!   ;D

And why do you love it?

Don't you think Americans have the right to know who is funding the political ads in this years elections?

The US chamber of commerce should not be allowed to be bought by any foreign entity? I dont know if any foreign entity is or is not - but the simple fact is we all have a right to know. It's that simple. This the US CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.  

I just don't get Becks position on this. As an American I do want to know. If there is no conspiracy there is nothing to hide. There should be full disclosure.

President and CEO of the Chamber Thomas J. Donahue, is on record , on tape saying that outsourcing is “good for America”.  The Chamber has even claimed that most Americans actually benefit from outsourcing.

The so-called US Chamber of Commerce is on record as backing the outsourcing of US jobs to cheaper foreign sources of labor. That's one of the national group's main functions--as opposed to your local Chamber-as US Chamber of Commerce President Donahue said, "There Are Legitimate Values in Outsourcing. -- not only jobs, but work".

Tell that to my neighbor who lost his job because it was outsourced to to Malaysia. Which by the way is over 60% muslim.

So yes I want full disclosure for all political ads..period.  Whether from the chamber or anybody else. And yes it would weigh heavy with my vote if determined our elections are trying to be influenced  by China , or India , or Saudi Arabia or anybody.

and BTW ..if it is determined the chamber was using foreign funds to fund Ads Beck and his Audience just forked over their hard earned American dollars to help them do it... and since the chamber's own charter is to promote the outsourcing of American Jobs overseas .. Beck just asked his American Audience to help the chamber get rid of their own American jobs with their own hard earned American dollars out of their own pockets ....

so again I just don't get Becks position on this issue.

  Poor Scoot;
  B Hussein Obama (and his lackeys) are the only ones who have made that claim thus far, and we already know how they lie.. :D
  You scream for 'full disclosure'..so why are you not screaming for full disclosure ..asking to see a real birth certificate ?  ;) :D
  Why doesn't B Hussein disclose his cooperation with Marxists, Jeremiah Wright's "black liberation theology", Bill Ayers' revolutionary plans and why B. Hussein bows to every Muslim dictator/tyrant he meets...surely, as you said yourself "there should be full disclosure".. ;) :D ;D ;D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2010, 05:23:50 AM »
We never got full disclosure on all of Obama's campaign donations. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. As Karl Rove has said, the Dems don't like it when the Repubs play by the same rules as them. Seems Dems can't compete very well on a level playing field. When it comes to the charge of the Chamber taking donations from special interest groups, that is just more hypocrisy. What are unions, enviromental groups, communist groups, socialist groups and others that donate to Dems if not special interest groups. Is it better to take money from groups that create jobs and support business or ones that kill jobs and destroy a nation? Europe is learning this lesson the hard way. Be nice if we could learn from their example instead of following their misguided footsteps.
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2010, 06:12:22 AM »
I just don't get Becks position on this. As an American I do want to know. If there is no conspiracy there is nothing to hide. There should be full disclosure.



That goes both ways. Hypocrisy on the left is  staggering!
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2010, 07:23:51 AM »
I just don't get Becks position on this. As an American I do want to know. If there is no conspiracy there is nothing to hide. There should be full disclosure.
That goes both ways. Hypocrisy on the left is  staggering!

There is no Hypocrisy, right or left on this issue AS AN AMERICAN  - This isn't 2 wrongs make a right issue.  2 wrongs make a wrong!!!

quote
I want full disclosure for all political ads..period.  Whether from the chamber or anybody else. And yes it would weigh heavy with my vote if determined our elections are trying to be influenced  by China , or India , or Saudi Arabia or anybody.
/quote
And Beck jumped the gun on this issue and has led his audience down a wrong path if it is determined as some later date it is true.

Even if it's not true Beck doesn't understand the charter of US CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, and acted out of ignorance, and had his audience act out of ignorance. He just donated 10k to an organization that promotes the outsourcing of American  jobs over seas (this is what they do ..its part of their charter!!!! )

Hard working Americans just reached in their pockets and donated their own hard earned money to an organization that  promotes the elimination of our own American jobs to enable them to be outsorced overseas. Whats so hard to understand here!!!

Sorry folks , Beck didn't educate himself or his  audience before acting and he is out to lunch on this one.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2010, 02:04:12 PM »
Whatever you say.   :)
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline billy_56081

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8575
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2010, 04:30:25 PM »
Scoot have ya ever seen the Vadez oil spill yourself? Well ypu brought it up.

I think your pulling an AlGore.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31302
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2010, 02:20:59 AM »
Scoot;
   As Bill O'Reilly told one of those MacBeth type harridans on "the view" the other day, "just sit quiet and you will learn something" !
      You and BHO accuse the Chamber of Commerce of getting millions of bucks from big, powerful foreign companies, apparently because Chamber members have billions of dollars tied up with these same foreign entities.
   Here's where you learn ! Take a look at your local Chamber of Commerce..they are not Bank of America, Textron, Microsoft.
      They are not Chrysler of General Motors...because those two are the government..
  No; your local Chamber is made up of small businessmen..Restauranteurs, Car-wash owners, small construction companies and local trucking companies....not international financiers nor large commercial companies. Charlie and his car-wash are not likely to be making deals with Siemens or Sweiss banks...DUH

   In any case, it doesn't matter; voters are not concerned with international business deals. Voters are concerned more with the nearly 10% unemployment, when they were PROMISED no more than 8% at worst. They are concerned with politicians who figure it is the "best bang for the buck" when someone is on food stamps, rather than earning a paycheck. They are more concerned about members of the president's cabinet who don't pay their fair share of taxes..and a congress who denies Social Security cost-of-living increases, while voting themselves a 10% increase in their already bloated wages..to say nothing about the $$$ they can wheel-&-deal for..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2010, 03:51:32 PM »
Scoot;
       You and BHO accuse the Chamber of Commerce of getting millions of bucks from big, powerful foreign companies, apparently because Chamber members have billions of dollars tied up with these same foreign entities.
  

I truly believe your the one who needs to kick back and reread ...
I accused no one .... I said I don't know if they did or did not. I said Beck jumped the gun until  we know for sure... Clear enough for YA ? aside from that , Part of the reason we have high unemployment  -  yep Outsourcing... Hmm US Chamber of Commerce promotes outsourcing ... Line must not be straight enough for ya.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline billy_56081

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8575
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2010, 05:00:29 PM »
Old scoot is avoiding the question to what he brought up. What an AlGore move.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31302
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2010, 06:20:10 PM »
Scoot;
       You and BHO accuse the Chamber of Commerce of getting millions of bucks from big, powerful foreign companies, apparently because Chamber members have billions of dollars tied up with these same foreign entities.
  

I truly believe your the one who needs to kick back and reread ...
I accused no one .... I said I don't know if they did or did not. I said Beck jumped the gun until  we know for sure... Clear enough for YA ? aside from that , Part of the reason we have high unemployment  -  yep Outsourcing... Hmm US Chamber of Commerce promotes outsourcing ... Line must not be straight enough for ya.

  As you said, you don't know whether the Chamber played the game they are accused of or not..wouldn't it be prudent to wait and see if they did? You said Beck "jumped the gun" by backing the Chamber..haven't you "jumped the gun" by accusing Beck of doing so?
  Hasn't Obama and his henchmen 'jumped the gun' by accusing without a shred of proof ?

  Outsourcing does hurt our job market, but if you're looking for the rat in the woodpile..check out bro Clinton..he's the one who fought for China to get "most favored nation" trading status in the 1990s.

  RTead thgis, especially the 2nd paragraph; http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/380103/should_china_retain_its_most_favored.html

     See ! I told you that you could learn something !  ;) :D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2010, 07:51:10 AM »
Old scoot is avoiding the question to what he brought up. What an AlGore move.

You guys are as bad as women in arguments, if your losing the argument on logic and facts rather than stay on point.. try to defer and deflect,  ..This issue has nothing to do BHO or Dems or anything else. I didn't vote for 'em and I don't know if the Dems provide full disclosure. I don't even know if the chamber did anything wrong. Point is there should be full disclosure for all ads period. Pretty simple., pretty consistent.

To stay on tract

I state again:

quote
I want full disclosure for all political ads..period.  Whether from the chamber or anybody else. And yes it would weigh heavy with my vote if determined our elections are trying to be influenced  by China , or India , or Saudi Arabia or anybody.
/quote
And Beck jumped the gun on this issue and has led his audience down a wrong path if it is determined as some later date it is true.

Even if it's not true  - Beck doesn't understand the charter of US CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, and acted out of ignorance, and had his audience act out of ignorance. He just donated 10k to an organization that promotes the outsourcing of American  jobs over seas (this is what they do ..its part of their charter!!!! ) I'd be against my own mother if that was her position.

Hard working Americans just reached in their pockets and donated their own hard earned money to an organization that  promotes the elimination of our own American jobs to enable them to be outsourced overseas. Whats so hard to understand here!!!
/////

And Billy I don't need to physically see the spill to read the reports of Valdez , They have been tracking it for years and years, mounds and mounds of studies, same as buzzards bay. Feel free to pick and choose the ones you want to believe, but they all say the same thing... toxicity levels have still not dropped all that significantly.

The fact is ..with the gulf recover ... sure ... 20+ years from now..

But to say its not all that bad ... was a ridiculous nonfactual statement.

"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline mrussel

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 838
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2010, 01:55:22 PM »
Old scoot is avoiding the question to what he brought up. What an AlGore move.

You guys are as bad as women in arguments, if your losing the argument on logic and facts rather than stay on point.. try to defer and deflect,  ..This issue has nothing to do BHO or Dems or anything else. I didn't vote for 'em and I don't know if the Dems provide full disclosure. I don't even know if the chamber did anything wrong. Point is there should be full disclosure for all ads period. Pretty simple., pretty consistent.

To stay on tract

I state again:

quote
I want full disclosure for all political ads..period.  Whether from the chamber or anybody else. And yes it would weigh heavy with my vote if determined our elections are trying to be influenced  by China , or India , or Saudi Arabia or anybody.
/quote
And Beck jumped the gun on this issue and has led his audience down a wrong path if it is determined as some later date it is true.

Even if it's not true  - Beck doesn't understand the charter of US CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, and acted out of ignorance, and had his audience act out of ignorance. He just donated 10k to an organization that promotes the outsourcing of American  jobs over seas (this is what they do ..its part of their charter!!!! ) I'd be against my own mother if that was her position.

Hard working Americans just reached in their pockets and donated their own hard earned money to an organization that  promotes the elimination of our own American jobs to enable them to be outsourced overseas. Whats so hard to understand here!!!
/////

And Billy I don't need to physically see the spill to read the reports of Valdez , They have been tracking it for years and years, mounds and mounds of studies, same as buzzards bay. Feel free to pick and choose the ones you want to believe, but they all say the same thing... toxicity levels have still not dropped all that significantly.

The fact is ..with the gulf recover ... sure ... 20+ years from now..

But to say its not all that bad ... was a ridiculous nonfactual statement.



 Im sure on most things I dont agree with you (But still,I'm pretty sure your not Hitler) ,but on the outsourcing of jobs,I have to agree 100%. (well,maybe 80%,I agree that it should be discouraged as much as reasonably possible but I bet you have some market based solution and my solution would rely more heavily on some sort of law or regulation,still,just like with how I agree/disagree with alot of libertarians,we agree on what we would like things to be like,probably just not on how to get there)

 On the subject of the Valdez,I read a article in an environmental science journal that discussed how on most of the beaches,if you dig down a few feet,you find all that oil that they had assumed would disperse just sitting there trapped in the sand. Its a seriously nasty mess and Im sure they will find the same in the Gulf as time goes on. Honestly though,once the spill was happening,there was not much that could be done. Its not that BP engineers were incompetent. Far from it,they are some of the best in the industry. Its that decisions were made BEFORE the spill that let safety precautions lapse. Yes,they COULD have cut off the top of the preventer and put that cap on it to begin with but hindsight is 20/20. What they did was figure out all the ways they could stop it,and then try them in an order that would not preclude the next step from being done. For instance,if they had cut off the top and put the cap on,and it did NOT work,then they could not have tried the procedure pumping heavy drilling "mud" down the well or the procedure putting randomly shaped objects down the top (which if you have ever had anything clog in a pipe is actually a pretty good idea. Unfortunately it seems to only clog when you DON'T want it to) We know after the fact that those early attempts did not work,but there is no way they could know that before they tried and they had no reason to think that the one that finally worked was enough of a sure thing to forget about the other ones and do it. In fact,if they had thought that,they would have done it. It was a very expensive process and BP had to pay for the mitigation work as well.


Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31302
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2010, 02:39:08 PM »
  once the BP spill began, there was much that could have been done. The prez could have waived the "Jones act" and let the oil skimmer ships from the Netherlands and sundry other places come in and start collecting the oil. he could have allowed the Coast guard to burn off some of the oil. there were many nations ready to pitch in and help...but the prez would not waive the Jones act.
  Of course, the jones act says that only American union members can work at such efforts..and B Hussein owes much to the unions. Evidently having the taxpayers buy gobs of Chrysler and GM ..then giving it to the unions wasn't enough. Apparently union greed knows no bounds.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2010, 03:27:51 PM »
 once the BP spill began, there was much that could have been done. The prez could have waived the "Jones act" and let the oil skimmer ships from the Netherlands and sundry other places come in and start collecting the oil. he could have allowed the Coast guard to burn off some of the oil. there were many nations ready to pitch in and help...but the prez would not waive the Jones act.
  Of course, the jones act says that only American union members can work at such efforts..and B Hussein owes much to the unions. Evidently having the taxpayers buy gobs of Chrysler and GM ..then giving it to the unions wasn't enough. Apparently union greed knows no bounds.

And why is it all the politician who railed against the GM bailout , are now trying to have their cake and eat it too.
The fact is the Auto bailout worked. GM posted profits and are well on their way to profitability again. Jobs were saved.

Now as far as bailing out the financial sector ... I say we should have let 'em go under.

One Bailout was good (Auto) , the other was bad ( Wallstreet) .  


When it came to stimulus dollars the same politicians dead set against it  and voted against it (on both sides of the isle) , went back to their states and were all to eager to hand out stimulus $$ checks and are now trying to take credit for creating Jobs with stimulus $$ they voted against when they voted no on the hill claiming no Jobs would be created and it would add to our insurmountable deficit.

 All these politicians are just plain hypocrites. JMHO (there are no decent moral men/women left in Washington .



-----
GM posts first quarter gains

For the first time since 2007, GM has posted a first quarter profit. According to the New York Times, GM garnered about $865 million in profits for first quarter 2010.  It posted revenues of $31.5 billion, and cash flow about $1 billion in the positive.  It’s an overall positive sign for the beleaguered car maker, who previously had to ask the government for more than $50 billion in assistance. One year ago, the company posted losses of $6 billion.

Despite the return of GM profits, the company is still heavily in debt.  The loans it received from the U.S. and Canadian governments totaled more than $50 billion. GM has been making obvious positive strides but isn’t completely free yet. At present, the U.S. Treasury still owns more than 60 percent of GM, and those ownership stakes can only be bought by stock offering when the company goes public again. According to the same piece in the New York Times, they will potentially make a public offering by year’s end.

Granted ..not out of the woods and still have some $$ to repay ... but very positive strides.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline mrussel

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 838
Re: Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2010, 08:49:06 PM »



Now as far as bailing out the financial sector ... I say we should have let 'em go under.



I disagree. Not bailing out the banks would have been a disaster. Most businesses large and small depend on loans from those banks to buy merchandise to sell. If they go under,or stop lending,the economy grinds to a halt. Without those businesses whether they be large retailers or small mom and pop operations,even more jobs are lost and even more businesses go under. It would have been worse than the great depression.

  The solution however should not have been to bail out the banks. The problem was that sub prime mortgages were pulling banks under. The solution,which would have cost less and done more should have been for the government to buy up any failing sub prime mortgages for a reasonable price. They are not worth face value,but not worthless either. That way,people who invested in these mortgage backed securities (which would now be regulated so you could not create more of these things to exploit the government bailout. In other words,we deal with whats out there,but you cant make any more) . The problem was not that they were even worthless,but that they were over valued and in fact no one even knew their value. If the government would have simply bought the failing ones,the melt down never would have happened. No take overs of banks,no buy outs and no crisis. Im sure someone is going to chime in that it would be a terrible mistake for the government to just let all these sub prime borrowers off the hook and that it would make an incentive for the borrowers to just not pay if they would get to keep their house. I agree 100% and that's why I never suggested such a thing.

 Once the government had bought the loan,then you owe the government,and the best way to handle that would be to craft some rules to let the IRS deal with it. They have the infrastructure to do it. If the government buys your loan that you owed $100k on ,then you would owe the IRS that money. In fact,It could be structured as a 100% tax on the money that was used to pay off the house,which would count as income. It would be up to the IRS,as per the regulations set by congress to determine if you could make payment arrangements, if they were going to seize the house (their version of repossess it) to pay the debt or if it was just not worth the trouble,or if a partial forgiveness was in order. (the house was for instance in a terrible market and in bad shape and it would actually be a net loss to seize it) My preference would be that forgiveness would be very very rare and instead you would have deferment of the debt until the property was sold. The IRS is very good at determining where there is money,and whether you can pay,and is also very good at applying regulations to determine if you meet criteria for things like repayment plans.

 The total value of sub primes were about 1.2 trillion dollars. About 10% defaulted,so that's about 12 billion dollars. Compare that to the amount the tax payers lost on the bank bailouts. Perhaps some assistance would have been needed,but nothing like what was done. Of those some could be saved by restructuring becuase it was the crazy terms that were causing the problem. In my scenario,the "restructuring" would be paying the IRS. No more variable rates. You owe taxes and so long as your paying you keep your home. If you dont,the IRS will be coming for you and the feds no longer have to beg the banks to fix the problem while at the same time dumping buckets of money on them. (Why would they restructure the loans,they already got enough money to stay afloat,now in addition to that,they can wring as much money out of the borrowers as they can,while we all foot the bill)

 In short,the most cost effective thing for the US taxpayer would have been for the government to pay off your loan ,tax that income at 100% and have the IRS guided by some rules crafted by congress figure out how best to minimize the losses the program would cause by collecting as much as was feasible while not being totally inhumane and ignoring peoples individual situations. Criminal penalties for not paying this particular tax would be taken off the table so long as there was no fraud involved (if you hid assets and then let your house go into foreclosure to get the government to pay and write it off or you try to hide income to keep your tax payments low,your tax bill is now due in full and if you dont pay, your going get your room and board for the next five years on Uncle Sam) and deferments would be the preferred solution to writing it off. You can imagine the IRS might give you a deferment if your unemployed until you find work. If you sold your house,the IRS would want their money. The best part is,there would be little additional overhead in administering the program becuase the IRS already does these things.