Oops - US Chamber of commerce may be in some hot water

[scootrd]

We will all have to watch how this pans out - follow the money so to speak.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/10/07/1862578/is-the-us-chamber-spending-foreign.html

In a nutshell the concern (besides the legal one) is foreign countries trying to influence this years elections on behalf of
big business and ensure the present big business practice of outsourcing American jobs overseas continues uninhibited.

So the alleged allegations boil down to -  are foreign interests supporting U.S. candidates that would be friendly to
this continued outsourcing practice,  paving the way for Big business to continue unabated.   

Then of course if proven true , their is the fact that it is illegal for Foreign corporations and foreign nationals to
give directly or indirectly to any U.S. campaigns.

[Dixie Dude]

Why do American companies go overseas?  China has no corporate income tax.  Environmental regulations (usually put in place by Dem's), Safety regulations (insurance companies use to regulate businesses and safety went down back in the 70's when OSHA was formed, more accidents not less), our oil companies can't drill on government land like they used to be able to, nor offshore, Alaska etc.).  Ross Perot had it right about Nafta.  Clinton signed it into law, then gave China most favored nation status opening the door further.  If the factories had gone to Mexico, we would not be having so many illegals.  Even Mexico's pres said when Clinton opened the door to China, factories left Mexico and went to China.  Mexico's average wage is $0.75 per hour, Chinas is $0.10 per hour.  It isn't all Republican's fault.  A lot is Dems, a whole lot.

[scootrd]

Why do American companies go overseas?  China has no corporate income tax.  Environmental regulations (usually put in place by Dem's), Safety regulations (insurance companies use to regulate businesses and safety went down back in the 70's when OSHA was formed, more accidents not less), our oil companies can't drill on government land like they used to be able to, nor offshore, Alaska etc.).  Ross Perot had it right about Nafta.  Clinton signed it into law, then gave China most favored nation status opening the door further.  If the factories had gone to Mexico, we would not be having so many illegals.  Even Mexico's pres said when Clinton opened the door to China, factories left Mexico and went to China.  Mexico's average wage is $0.75 per hour, Chinas is $0.10 per hour.  It isn't all Republican's fault.  A lot is Dems, a whole lot.

I'm not pointing a finger  -  I just think it will be interesting how it all pans out in coming months due to the legalities.

[BBF]

There is a large rug with room underneath it

[saddlebum]

Carl Rove was also called out by name by the President for "funding" republican elections. Ya, like he's the George Soros of the right.  
Carl ain't happy about it and said so on Fox News Sunday.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/rove-obama-beyond-the-pale-on-campaign-remarks/
“Have these people no shame?” Rove said. “Does the president of the United States have such little regard for the office that he holds that he goes out there and makes these kind of baseless charges against his political enemies? This is just beyond the pale. How dare the president do this.”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dems-business-group-using-foreign-cash-to-aid-gop/
Asked to back up the allegation, White House adviser David Axelrod offered no proof but said, “Why not simply disclose where this money is coming from and the all of these questions would be answered.”

As long as the Chambers paperwork is in order, I think this will blow over just like all the other lies Obama and the left tell.

How come nobody pitches a fit over the Dems getting help from international sources like unions and Soros???

[mrussel]

Why do American companies go overseas? 

Ill tell you why. In other parts of the world,you can dump toxic waste in rivers. In other parts of the world you can pay 12 year old workers 25 cents an hour and lock the doors to keep them from leaving before their 16 hour shift is done. In other parts of the world,if you dont bother to maintain your equipment and that worker has his hand torn off in a peice of rotating machinery,you can just unlock that door,throw him out,bleeding on the street and its ok. Thats why employers go overseas. They want an environment like that becuase contrary to the "Deregulate everything and it will all be milk and honey" rhetoric,without those laws HERE thats exactly what WOULD BE HAPPENING.

 Personally,I like clean drinking water,so I think that EPA regulations that prevent companies from dumping untreated waste from the etching tanks from a plating shop directly into the river we take our drinking water from is a good idea. I dont like the idea of 12 year old children being maimed in factories,so I think that the DOL wage and hour division and OSHA are necessary. The rivers in industrial areas in the US used to actually CATCH FIRE due to the toxic chemicals and floating debris but now companies actually have to dispose of that waste in a way that wont poison people are cause a hazard. Yes its expensive. Its part of the cost of doing business responsibly,and now legally.

    The very fact that companies will ship their jobs to places where these things happen tells me that the tired rhetoric about how if we got rid of all those pesky laws ,the free market would keep us safe is simply wrong. It was tried already,and it didn't work. The reason its wrong is becuase without laws to force them to do the right thing,there is no reason too,becuase they dont have to pay for the cleanup or pay the medical bills of the people they poisoned. Remember,the appalling conditions in third world factories used to happen here. They had years and years of total freedom to fix it. Why didn't they? Should not the "market forces" have kept us safe? Its all about the money. Its cheaper to poison people than to treat the waste. Eventually the majority of people got sick of it,laws were passed and it became illegal to do those things.

In short,American companies go overseas becuase its ok to abuse your workers and poison people who live by the plants. You dont need a safe work environment and you dont even have to safeguard the people that live next to your plants. Remember the Union Carbide Bhopal disaster. They released a toxic cloud of methyl isocyanate and killed around 4000 people (and some estimates are as high as 15,000). Do you really want that here? Do you really think companies that refuse to maintain safe (for workers and nearby residents) production facilities when they are legally required to (think BP,with tens of thousands of egregious safety violations and 10s of millions of dollars in fines) will magically do so if all the laws are revoked. The forces of the free market as far as safety goes are still there. We can all choose not to buy BP gas if they dont have safe refineries. The fact that the government can fine them for releasing toxic chemicals or killing their workers doesn't stop that. Revoking the laws would not be "letting the free market regulate safety rather than letting the government do it",because right now BOTH forces are at work,and still,many companies dont act responsibly,becuase even with environmental and labor laws proscribing fines for not doing what they should,they STILL find it cheaper to act irresponsibly. How would changing things to eliminate costs and make it cheaper to act like this possibly improve the situation. It would do one thing. It would prevent outsourcing. It would certainly make it more profitable for businesses to keep work in the US if they could abuse their workers.

 Personally I dont think its an either or situation. Think there are ways to give companies disincentives to move work overseas.

[mrussel]

Carl Rove was also called out by name by the President for "funding" republican elections. Ya, like he's the George Soros of the right.  
Carl ain't happy about it and said so on Fox News Sunday.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/rove-obama-beyond-the-pale-on-campaign-remarks/
“Have these people no shame?” Rove said. “Does the president of the United States have such little regard for the office that he holds that he goes out there and makes these kind of baseless charges against his political enemies? This is just beyond the pale. How dare the president do this.”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dems-business-group-using-foreign-cash-to-aid-gop/
Asked to back up the allegation, White House adviser David Axelrod offered no proof but said, “Why not simply disclose where this money is coming from and the all of these questions would be answered.”

As long as the Chambers paperwork is in order, I think this will blow over just like all the other lies Obama and the left tell.

How come nobody pitches a fit over the Dems getting help from international sources like unions and Soros???

 Actually,they DID pitch a fit. Remember the whole "money from china thing" Like you on the right,the true believers on the left didn't want to see it either,becuase it damaged their candidates rep,and like you probably will,they didn't even bother to consider if it were true or not,but just voted for their candidate anyway. I'm not saying its true or not,I'm just saying people see what they want to see and if what they see happens to coincide with reality,its purely coincidental. If this were a Democrat being brought to task for some transgression,you would 100% certain that it was true.Since its a republican,your 100% certain its not. Thinking about the issues and considering the evidence is NOT listening to NPR,or Rush Limbaugh (depending on which side of the isle you sit) and being told what to think and what is true. Its actually considering the evidence and actually making up your mind based on its merits,whether or not it hurts your agenda.

[mrussel]

Safety regulations (insurance companies use to regulate businesses and safety went down back in the 70's when OSHA was formed, more accidents not less),

I guarantee you ,you are wrong with that. I work in industrial hygiene (I'm even a member of they AIHA and in fact they are having a conference coming up this week) and the number of workplace injuries fell sharply after the OSHA act. Its a documented fact. I understand you heard that somewhere,but its just not true. Before you just start changing "Im right and your wrong" give me some hard numbers for a reputable source. An insurance company or a industrial hygiene organization like AIHA or ACGIH or even better,a peer reviewed industrial hygiene journal would be a good source.

 I do have to say,there is a touch of personal offense to my reactions when people talk about how much better it would be if there were no safety regulations. In addition to the places I have worked that were unsafe (things like improper storage of highly toxic chemicals like 5lbs of potassium cyanide in a cardboard box sitting under a sink we poured acid waste down,which was a gas chamber waiting to happen should that pipe leak and drip acid onto it,or massive exposure to toxic chemicals used in the manufacturing process) my grandfather lost most of his hand in a papermill accident. (he had a severely damaged thumb and half an index finger left) They said it was his fault becuase he chose to use the machine without the guard attached and fired him for it,refusing to pay his medical bills. In fact,he was told to use the machine even though the guard was missing,and if he had refused,they would have disciplined or fired him. This was before the OSHA act and he had no legal protections. They didn't pay attention then,and sometimes they dont even pay attention to safety now that its illegal and you get fined for it.

 The fact is,there is nothing in the OSHA act that protects insurance companies from having to pay out for damages if a company kills someone. There is nothing in the OSHA act that requires you to keep buying a companies products if they egregiously abuse their employees. The free market is STILL there. All the forces of the free market that are supposed to keep companies from doing these things are still in effect and in ADDITION to those, you can get fined for it and STILL they dont pay attention. How would eliminating the fines help make people safer? In fact,companies get fined for not following the rules. You get fined for poisoning your employees if the air samples come back from the lab showing that the levels of toxic chemicals were higher than the legal limits. If you dont poison your employees you have nothing to worry about becuase unless they have that report from the lab in hand ,the PROOF that your poisoning your employees,your not getting a fine.

[saddlebum]

Yep, you saw right through me! Can't get anything by ole mrussel! Thanks for the accusations and getting me lined out!

I tried to find an article about this on the dailykos and huffington post so's I could be fair and ballanced, but I couldn't find one. So I will leave this one instead. Not in my own words, but the media reports. Like my other post! It's called information. HEY, maybe I'm getting the hang of this,"considering the evidence", stuff! mrussel, you should email Obama and give him some advice too!!

http://biggovernment.com/publius/2010/10/10/obamas-foreign-money-charge-against-the-chamber-and-others-is-bogus/#more-179353

As I said in my first post, I am waiting to see if the Chambers' records are in order. Then I can consider the evidence and actually make up my own mind based on it's merits, whether or not it hurts my agenda. (I didn't even know I had one, thanks!) I'm gettin the hang of this already! WHEW, good thing I don't listen to NPR or Limbaugh. I might have to attend a remedial coarse in making up my own mind.
I was also taking into consideration the fact that these accusations were made so close to the elections by an administration that is unpopular and lagging in the polls.........I wonder if it's ok to think for myself too??

[beerbelly]

     OSHA is a joke! Anyone that has worked in manufacturing knows this. I have watched those kids right out of collage come in the machine shop that I worked in and saw their safety measures. They were requiring the company to paint yellow lines for areas to be walk ways, while standing under a very large over head Crain that had no brakes!
  It's just more  Wasted money! They cost the company money, so in order to stay solvent the company moves over seas where they don't have to put up with the BS.
                               Beerbelly

[gypsyman]

I have an idea, but, it'll never fly. The unions are to lazy, and govt. in the back pocket of bug business. With all the union's and members that there are, why couldn't they set up a commission, union money and members, so that no outside influence could taint the outcome.
Find out how many jobs and work place's, that have been outsourced in the last 20 years. Find out what country they went to, hourly wages,epa(if any)standards, and how much said product costs now when the company brings it in to this country. Then there shoould be an import tax imposed, to bring said product up to what it would cost if still made in America. BUT, like I said in the beginning. It'll never fly. Unions are to lazy, company's paying off the govt. and stockholders screaming like a bunch of stuck pigs. In the mean time, we'll just keep rolling downhill with our economy. gypsyman

[mrussel]

     OSHA is a joke! Anyone that has worked in manufacturing knows this. I have watched those kids right out of collage come in the machine shop that I worked in and saw their safety measures. They were requiring the company to paint yellow lines for areas to be walk ways, while standing under a very large over head Crain that had no brakes!
  It's just more  Wasted money! They cost the company money, so in order to stay solvent the company moves over seas where they don't have to put up with the BS.
                               Beerbelly

 So the Crane should have been cited too. However your not arguing that OSHA should hire better people and train them better,your arguing that the company should be allowed to have that crane hanging over peoples heads in a dangerous way and that there shouldn't be inspectors to fine them for it at all and that somehow (this is the part I really dont get) the situation we have now where the insurance companies give incentives for safety AND you can get fined for having an unsafe work environment (if the inspectors catch you,which as you have pointed out,they might not) it would be better to ONLY have the insurance companies give incentives and do away with the inspectors and fines and magically,those employers that would not do the right thing when faced with high insurance rates and fines,will do it when the fines are eliminated.

 What is being done here is a fallacy referred to as a "false dichotomy" The issue has been framed as "Its (A and not B) or its (B and not A)" That is,we can have the insurance companies handle it by giving incentives for a safe workplace instead of the government handling it,OR we can have the government handle it and not have the insurance companies provide incentives. Thats simply not the case. The reality is that it should be framed as "Its (A and not B) OR its (A and B)" (or means exclusive or here,in the English language usage sense). In other words, We can have insurance companies provide incentives for employers to keep things safe OR we can have insurance companies provide incentives as well as give the government the power to fine employers who have an unsafe work environment. Finally,it should be said that insurance companies typically supported the OSHA act and support stricter legislation. If making it illegal to have unsafe work environments or expose your employees to hazardous chemicals (exposure I'm sure you know if you have worked in manufacturing is defined as being exposed above the legal limit) somehow entices employers to do exactly those things that are illegal as was suggested its very odd that the insurance companies would support it.

[beerbelly]

Any thing big brother government dose is great as far as you left wing liberal folks are conserved. Most of us on the other hand can see that most of what OSHA and other government goon squads are doing is useless and a waste of money!
  We the workers ay the plant I worked for hated them and did all we could to confuse them and give them a hard time!
  By the way between OSHA and the EPA the plant I worked for is no longer there! It is out of business, along with the 1200 people that worked there. I know you think starvation is ok as long as the government is in control

[saddlebum]

I don't have a problem with OSHA watching my back, but like so many other regulating organizations they over regulate to the point of lunacy. I have seen them overlook some basic, common sense safety issues and ram home some lunatic non-issues. They have to justify their jobs somehow so they have to keep comming up with new regulations. OSHA wasn't supposted to be a growing industry unto itself.

[ironglow]

Oh-Mammy sees his reputation and his rubber-stamp congress fading, so he says "WAAAAAHH" and starts whining...
   Lest we forget; Clinton fought for and got a "most favored trading nation" status for China...then curiously, he later received million$$ for his 'library'..
   And then of course, there's George Soros (the Hungarian) with corporations and money schemes all over the world..lately an offshore drilling venture with Brazil...an OH-Mammy will hand him a couple billion$ of our borrowed money...probably at less than it costs us !

[Lost Oki]

There are some issues with Federal OSHA, at the same time, most state plans are effective...most.  OSHA regs are in most cases easy to meet if your company and you have the stones to do it...I have been in manufacturing for 40 years.  Have worked for short periods of time for one or two companies that just don't care....gees they were both union shops....I also have friends in union shops that have excellent safety programs.  It all comes back to "quite your belly aching and do it.  My current employer pushes safety.  There an active member of the state VPP program and the plant manager expects the mgmt team to walk the talk...OSHA, just like police forces can't catch all the bad guys nor can a good safety program fix stupid workers....We all have those "wish I hadn't done that" days and most don't get seriously hurt....but people and companies who run equipment with out guarding are just that...stupid...........and ladies and gentlemen, stupid can not be fixed.  I have listen to people for 40 years belly ache that "you can't meet all the OSHA requirements....hog wash....do the math....we had a guy cut off the end of his finger when dumping trash.  rolling trash hopper was broke and he knew it....did he report it...no, why....just didn't.  He knew the company would fix or replace it...tip of finger $25,000...hopper $600.  No, I am not a liberal..........if I was, my U.S. Flag, flying in my front yard would not be at half mast...and its going to stay there until we get rid of the "STUPIDS" in congress.  Nuf Said

[saddlebum]

That post didn't sound liberal to me. It just sounded smart. My only complaint about OSHA or any of them is over regulation. I guess over regulation is subjective and open for debate and opinion.

[mrussel]

Any thing big brother government dose is great as far as you left wing liberal folks are conserved. Most of us on the other hand can see that most of what OSHA and other government goon squads are doing is useless and a waste of money!
  We the workers ay the plant I worked for hated them and did all we could to confuse them and give them a hard time!
  By the way between OSHA and the EPA the plant I worked for is no longer there! It is out of business, along with the 1200 people that worked there. I know you think starvation is ok as long as the government is in control

 Brilliant,you complain that they are wasting money,but then you do your best to MAKE them waste money and do a bad job. Its like the people that complained about the auto industry bailout saying it was a waste of money and the taxpayers were never going to get it back,then called for everyone to boycott them and MAKE SURE we lose our money. Its a pathetic as the people on the other side that were against the war in Iraq (I was against it to,we should have focused on Afganistan) and were hoping that we would LOSE (I was NOT for that,once your in,you go ALL IN)

 And no,I dont think starvation is ok,but what I do think is that drinking water comes out of rivers and if you for instance get rid of the EPA regulations that say its OK to dump waste from a plating shop into that river,all that lead and copper and nickle ends up coming out of your tap. What I'm not for is a business that thinks its ok to lower its operating costs by creating health or safety hazards. Those costs get passed right on to you and me.  
 The way the argument seems to go is, "Lets deregulate businesses so they dont have to pay for cleanup,the market will regulate it". Well,whose going to clean up the toxic mess that was created? Lets make the businesses do it,right. But wait,we cant pass a law requireing them to do it,becuase we cant have big government interfering. We cant tax anyone to pay for the government to clean it becuase that's bad too. Its a total load of BS. What the REAL argument is,lets do nothing,let them dump all the heavy metals,solvents and whatever else they produce and pretend its all going to be ok. There is a reason we have all those laws. Its not becuase some liberal came up with it and decided to force it down your throats. Its becuase from 1800s up to the 50s or 60s businesses were given a free hand to do as they pleased. They poisoned and maimed their employees, dumped toxic waste into the drinking water supply and belched out toxic fumes into the atmosphere (there were places where the white bark on trees turned black,the air would actually burn your eyes and there was a thick brown cloud hanging over most large industrial cities.) Here is an example. http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=1642  

 The fact is,we tried it your way for over 100 years and it was a huge mess. The system we have now is far from perfect. The system we had was even worse. If you have a idea on how it can be improved other than going back to the way it was and thinking that what didn't work before will magically work now,I'm all ears. The simple fact is though,it was NOT that everythign was fine and someone said, "Employees are really safe,and the rivers and streams are pristine and clear,so lets make a bunch of laws that REQUIRE them to stay that way,but really force (I'm not sure how exactly the laws are forcing companies to poison their employees and dump toxic waste in the streams,but clearly they must be becuase your saying how its made things worse)  them to pollute and kill people. It didn't work and the laws were a response to that,and yes,conservatives had little input,just like they had no input on the health care bill,becuase they decided to be obstructionists and say that everything was fine as it was and "the market" would make things all peachy. If there is a problem and you dont offer any solutions other than "lets keep doing what we were doing before,it hasnt worked for the last 100 years,but its bound to work any time now" dont be surprised when the solution that finally is adopted isn't what you wanted.

[Oldshooter]

Carl Rove was also called out by name by the President for "funding" republican elections. Ya, like he's the George Soros of the right.

the very hypocrisy of obama, Supports Soros by sending all drilling rigs to South America,claiming moratorium!! (moratorium on American prosperity) soros stands to gain billions in his south American oil biness! you leftist clowns look that up!!! Then he will back obama again with millions, at least obama knows which side his bread is buttered on.

Now we learn Soros is set to be one of the biggest beneficiaries of the Gulf oil catastrophe. With Obama’s ‘moratorium’ and the Obama Admin’s general hostility to drilling, it’s reported many oil companies have already looked into with Brazil regarding a move those shores. And what is Soros principally invested in right now? Petrobras, the Brazilian state oil company.

[mrussel]

That post didn't sound liberal to me. It just sounded smart. My only complaint about OSHA or any of them is over regulation. I guess over regulation is subjective and open for debate and opinion.

 Nothings perfect. Still,I dont see how people can complain about a law saying that you cant expose someone to too much benzene. Why would someone think that there should not be level of benzene that should not be exceeded over your shift. Yea,it might be expensive to install proper ventilation. It might be expensive to change your manufacturing process so that work can be completed in a more ventilated area. The question of course is,how much is your life worth to you. (Im sure most people have seen someone die of cancer and its not pretty) Guess what,your employer KNOWS what your life is worth to him. Its worth exactly how much he might be required to pay if he ends up killing you,minus the amount it costs him to keep you safe. You better hope that it costs more to kill you than it does to protect you.

[saddlebum]

Carl Rove was also called out by name by the President for "funding" republican elections. Ya, like he's the George Soros of the right.

the very hypocrisy of obama, Supports Soros by sending all drilling rigs to South America,claiming moratorium!! (moratorium on American prosperity) soros stands to gain billions in his south American oil biness! you leftist clowns look that up!!! Then he will back obama again with millions, at least obama knows which side his bread is buttered on.

Now we learn Soros is set to be one of the biggest beneficiaries of the Gulf oil catastrophe. With Obama’s ‘moratorium’ and the Obama Admin’s general hostility to drilling, it’s reported many oil companies have already looked into with Brazil regarding a move those shores. And what is Soros principally invested in right now? Petrobras, the Brazilian state oil company.

The more I think about it and learn about this accusation from Obama and his friends the more stunned I am that he could be that arrogant!
The amount of hypocrisy by doing this is just staggering!! Not to mention he has no proof. He never released the names of all his overseas campaign donners either!

[billy_56081]

The bad thing about Osha is they are keeping the herd from being thinned. Used to be the stupid killed themselves off before they bred. I mean if you need a warning to keep you from putting your hand into a running mower, you are not a value the the human gene pool.

[Oldshooter]

Oldshooter....actually the oil industry in the USA is not nationalized...they are private corps...so Obama didn't send well drillers to Brazil.,,,they went on their own. Obama had a deep well mortaorium in place after the BP boondoggle disaster...rightfully so, imo. The number of wells shifting to Brazil was about the same number as pre-distaster;;;Brazil is a hot item right now. In any case, with the oil corps now agreeing to stricter regulations and specs for deep well drilling the moratorium has been lifted just the other day.  These are the same specs and regs that Bush and Cheney let fall by the wayside. BTW,,,it appears that the BP disaster has been swept under the Great Carpet over the memory hole and we don't hear about it much.  Yes...BP was the largest contributor to BHO campaign coffers.

..TM7
.

THANKS FOR THAT ENLIGHTENMENT ALL OMNIPETANT SEER OF TRUTHS   dUHHHHH!

Hell yea he sent there and anywhere else they could make a living! he ran em outta the gulf! With your omnipotent vision every time a plane crashed or a car wrecked we would shut down transportation, BS

You of all people should see a plot when there is one.! The gulf spill although bad was not the catastrophic event it was made out to be and it was fixed so you Yankee boys wont freeze in the rain!

It was a crisis he took advantage of and Soros will get richer because of it and cap and tax will further stifle our productivity(why BP supported obama in the first place). And Soros will give much more money to obama when he needs it!

[scootrd]

You of all people should see a plot when there is one.! The gulf spill although bad was not the catastrophic event it was made out to be and it was fixed so you Yankee boys wont freeze in the rain!

Your kidding right?

How long did it take to clean up the EXXON Valdez? Oh wait , I can answer this ...they are still cleaning it up over 20 years later and the environment up there is still feeling the affects of the spill.

How long do you think it will take to clean up this mess?
How long do you think it will take the environment to bounce back?
How long to you think it will take the marshes , the habitat and breeding grounds for many fish and wildlife etc..to recover?
How long do you it will take before folks that rely on the gulf for their livelihood will not feel the economic impact from this spill?

Well if the Valdez spill is any indication ...mmmm 20+  years or so. I suspect those that rely on the gulf for their livelihood and the animals that rely on the gulf are going to be feeling the affects of this spill for many years to come.  

The Gulf oil spill surpassed the Exxon Valdez as the worst in U.S. history, Even by the most conservative of estimates the 1989 Exxon Valdez spilled about 11 million gallons, the Gulf spill conservative estimate is nearly 19 million gallons.

Under the highest non conservative estimate, nearly 39 million gallons may have spilled. I suspect when it all nets out well find it's somewhere in between.

[Oldshooter]

You of all people should see a plot when there is one.! The gulf spill although bad was not the catastrophic event it was made out to be and it was fixed so you Yankee boys wont freeze in the rain!

Your kidding right?

How long did it take to clean up the EXXON Valdez? Oh wait , I can answer this ...they are still cleaning it up over 20 years later and the environment up there is still feeling the affects of the spill.

How long do you think it will take to clean up this mess?
How long do you think it will take the environment to bounce back?
How long to you think it will take the marshes , the habitat and breeding grounds for many fish and wildlife etc..to recover?
How long do you it will take before folks that rely on the gulf for their livelihood will not feel the economic impact from this spill?

Well if the Valdez spill is any indication ...mmmm 20+  years or so. I suspect those that rely on the gulf for their livelihood and the animals that rely on the gulf are going to be feeling the affects of this spill for many years to come.  

The Gulf oil spill surpassed the Exxon Valdez as the worst in U.S. history, Even by the most conservative of estimates the 1989 Exxon Valdez spilled about 11 million gallons, the Gulf spill conservative estimate is nearly 19 million gallons.

You have drank the tree hugger kool aide! You get all this crap from the sierra club?

[scootrd]

This "crap"  or conservative number is BP's own number.
The high is obviously the environmentalist.

Somewhere in the middle is probably the truth.

As for the Valdez , go to a beach in the sound. get a shovel , dig down a few inches and pull up the sludge. Additionally a recent toxicity study shows that 20 years later the toxicity level has dropped very little from the sludge they pull up just few inches below the surface of the shoreline.  

That's not treehugger that's science

[billy_56081]

Scootrd, have you ever been to the beach in Valdez and dug down?

[Oldshooter]

The ocean will clean itself just as it has done for millions of years. If your fears are founded then all the oils  spilled during the wars in the Atlantic and Pacific would still be floating and polluting. You want a lil cheese with that whine?

I aint buyin it!

And the crap wasn't the BP estimates its the fear mongering tree hugging BS that is spread like this everyday. If you are that worried about the oil turn off that computer and light a  light a lamp and do your part to rid the country of fossil fuel oils!  

Oh and walk to work or better yet ride a mule and shovel his dung off the street behind you.

  Stuff happens, and there are thousands of wells  in the gulf, one accident and you wanna throw in the towel?  Doa little research about the big spill from Mexico in the seventies. Covered the Texas Beaches and we cleaned it up with no help from mexico, the guilty party. Vote obama in 2012 and have no fear everything will be just fine. Got that dung shovel ready?


Whinny assed stuff like this erks me and I'm done with it!

[scootrd]

Scootrd, have you ever been to the beach in Valdez and dug down?

Nope , but national geographic has ... but hey Guess what I've been to Buzzards Bay !!!!!!

"In trying to assess the potential effect of oil on the Gulf Coast wetlands, a 1969 spill in Massachusetts’ Buzzards Bay might offer close – if still imperfect – parallels, say Dr. McDowell and Woods Hole colleague Christopher Reddy.

It opens a window on the biological processes that over time help ease the effects of the spill. But it also highlights the long-term effects that can remain after much of the surface evidence has vanished.

The spill involved the barge Florida, which ran aground, dumping 175,000 gallons of diesel fuel. The first organisms to recolonize the area were “opportunistic species” such as carbon-loving worms and microbes, McDowell says. As they ate up their carbon-rich food source – in effect cleansing the harbor of much of the hydrocarbons – they died off, making way for species that normally inhabited the harbor and its marshland to return.

Still, she says, it took about a decade before researchers began to see the kinds of organisms in the harbor one would have seen prior to the spill, such as fiddler crabs. Dr. Reddy has continued to take samples from the marsh, and some 40 years later, oil remains trapped in the sediment three to eight inches below the surface. And it has changed little chemically since its arrival."

Just stating a personal opinion without fact is just that opinion without fact,  Just sayin it wasn't all that bad don't make it so. . especially when the scientific studies do not support your personal opinions.

and what liberal trash tree huggin magazine has the nerve to post these lies disguised as fact you ask ?
The Christian Science monitor..... Guess they drink the Kool-aid as well.

[saddlebum]

I HATE OIL SPILLS, HATE, HATE, HATE EM!!!!! I hate em so much that there's only one thing I hate worse than an oil spill!

That is 300,000,000 people trying to get to work on foot! (That's assuming we all have jobs) And trying to get groceries! And putting up with the 5,000,000 pesky little electric cars that go 100 miles to the charge, driven by the last of the elites, because there is not enough wind turbines for us all and solar panels still ain't cutting it...........I hate that!!