BC pressures

[brianscott12]

I have a bc in 45/70 that I bought 2 years ago. I'm wanting to load it up heavy and see what it's caPable of just to do it.  I'm assuming that it has the sb2 frame and my question is this.

Can it be loaded to ruger1 or modern rifle pressures?
I'm using hornady 300 gr jhp and imr 4198.

Thanks. Scott

[gendoc]

sammi pressure for the 45/70 is 28000psi according to my data. which prolly has been updated.
i have loaded mine with hornady 300gr hp #4500 with 46.5gr imr 4198... and wlr primer. 2131 fps, 27407psi
and its painful on the shoulder !! but not to the handi sb2. the bc should be a sb2.... unless
its been changed out. verify as per the FAQ'S
and that is near MAX LOAD. you need to start bout 10% less
if your hornady bullet is the same as the one i used #4500.
if not.... i caution you. seating depth plays a big role in the specs too.
my powder of choice is not imr-4198 !!!
thanks and be careful !!!!

tim needs to clarify levergun and ruger specs for you.

[brianscott12]

I don't understand.   Max for a marlin according to hodgdens is 57.2 grains. Are you saying that the bc can't handle marlin loads?  My hunting loads have 48 gr of imr 4198 and they aren't that stout. 

[gendoc]

maybe so... i go by standard loads.   with the speed and energy i get from the load i gave
you, i see no need for any stronger. but thats just me  
i do know that many here use the hornady le's which are quite strong.
your okay !!!! lets see what tim says. he knows more about the modern levels.
your receiver should be good to 65k. and he also knows what your barrel is good for.
2100 fps and 3000 fpe is purdy strong.
my old shoulder is a lil finiky  

[brianscott12]

Thanks. It's not that I need a load that strong but just wanting to see what kinda results I get with heavy loads. Curiosity and all.

[26-t]

Pain  is what is in your future. That scrap iron butt plate is the factor not max pressure.  26-t

[brianscott12]

Pain  is what is in your future. That scrap iron butt plate is the factor not max pressure.  26-t

Sometimes ya gotta do it just to gain a little respect.

[bikerbeans]

If you shoot a Ruger #1 load, which I am not suggesting you do, out of a BC 45/70 with the steel butt plate and no padding on your shoulder you will end up with the mother of all bruises or maybe a nice cut.  I am not at liberty to tell you how I know this.

BB

[brianscott12]

I'm gonna try some topend marlin loads first.

[Spanky]

You must be related to Tyler.



Spanky

[Frank V]

I have said this before on other forums & been criticized as being a smart alec. I'm not repeat, not trying to be a smart alec, but please invest in a good reloading manual possibly the one who's bullet you are using. Follow it's guidlines, they have the pressure equipment to properly test loads. Their advise is sound & TESTED, I don't believe  you will get into trouble using a good manual. It's money well spent. I hope this isn't taken as being a smart alec, but if so I still think it's good advise. I've been reloading for over 50 years & enjoy it a lot, I think I know what I'm talking about here.

I really have trouble believing the Handi is capable of handling Ruger #1 pressures, I've shot Ruger loads in a Ruger & it's beyond fun. Please be cautious in loading, interpolating loads can be dangerous. Be safe & have fun.
Thanks Frank

[quickdtoo]

All modern H&R 45-70s made since 1987 are on SB2 frames, the same SB2 frame that comes on the 500 S&W Handi that has a SAAMI MAP of 60kpsi and operating pressures in excess of 50kpsi and a much larger case head and more breech thrust than the 45-70. But H&R will tell you levergun loads are the limit, but they also state that handloads are not recommended in any of their rifles.  

The SAAMI MAP for the 45-70 is 28kpsi, there are three load levels typically found in loading manuals, trapdoor/springfield, levergun/1895 and modern rifle/Ruger #1. The pressure limits for each level are different depending on who's manual you look at, but following Hornady and Hodgdon guidelines who actually use the SAAMI spec for trapdoor levels at 28kpsi/28kcup(28kcup = 28kpsi), their levergun level limit is 40kcup and modern rifle is 50kcup, most folks find anything above trapdoor to be too much recoil considering the smallest bullet commonly used in the 45-70 is 300gr, some use mid level levergun loads, those that are recoil junkies like modern rifle loads for hunting, but be aware the recoil is brutal when you get above mid levergun loads, start low and work up is the best advice.  

As was mentioned, be aware of throat depth, H&R 45-70s typically have short throats, so bullets over 350gr may be into the lands well short of the SAAMI standard COL of 2.55", see throating the 45-70 in the FAQs if there's a problem.

Tim

[sabbatus]

this might be a bit irrelevant but my 22 in. 45/70 barrel enjoys a diet of 50 gr. imr 3031 behind a 340 gr cast bullet. it gives velocity at avg. of 1700 fps.   zero pressure issues but recoil is NOT for the timid.  I seat the bullet to touch the rifling with this load.

[bikerbeans]

Scott,

Usually takes me the second time to actually answer someone's question.  Anyway, keeping in mind everything that Quick said, Ruger#1 loads can be shot out a Handi, at least the two 45 cals that I own and the one that 1 that I sold.  It is a very abusive undertaking and requires that you monitor your gun for issues, like change in lockup, moving scopes, loose stocks, etc.  An unmodified Handi, even the BC, IMO is way too light to shoot Ruger #1s.  I have shot 300 grain & 405 grain jacketed Ruger #1 loads in my BC when it was still a 45/70 and you had better be ready when you light it off.  Without adding weight or a recoil pad, wearing a recoil absorbing pad, your unmodified BC 45/70 will be a handful.  Work up slow and good luck.  If you are a recoil master, like Tyler, then we would like to see video.

I know a GBO member who uses IMR4198 and is shooting 405 grainers at Ruger #1 levels, but he has a recoil pad, the stock bolt channel is full of lead and he is a tuff ole' cuss.

BB

[Big Blue]

Just my opinion, but I always stayed within the pressure of level 2 lever action loads and would recommend that to anyone else.
Don

[tacklebury]

I've shot a lot of moderate to heavy loads in my BC with good results overall, but as many have posted, I typically shoot less than full power for comfort.  My goto load and most accurate I've tried is 46.7gr. Reloader7 with Hornady's FTX or their 300 gr. HP.  I've gotten good accuracy.  Max load I have tested is 52 gr. Reloader7 and it gives a solid push that will set you on hour heels a bit standing up.  It's a bit uncomfortable at a bench though.  I shot 13 of these in T-shirt and no butt pad once and I was black and blue from top of shoulder to my armpit for a week.  hehe  I went and bought a limbsaver slip-on after that and have enjoyed shooting it a lot more.  I haven't chrony'd the 52gr. load, but per Hornady's FTX notes, in a 22" barrel that's moving along about 2150 fps, however in the 32" barreled BC it will be a bit more.  I don't use other powders and will be sticking with my 46ish grain load for most everything.  I did download some to 34.3 gr. with the FTX and got a nice Trap-door level load for my wife to shoot also.  Still very accurate on the low end.  Good luck with your experimentation.  

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,217534.new.html - Link to the FTX load notes if interested. 

[nomosendero]

I have said this before on other forums & been criticized as being a smart alec. I'm not repeat, not trying to be a smart alec, but please invest in a good reloading manual possibly the one who's bullet you are using. Follow it's guidlines, they have the pressure equipment to properly test loads. Their advise is sound & TESTED, I don't believe  you will get into trouble using a good manual. It's money well spent. I hope this isn't taken as being a smart alec, but if so I still think it's good advise. I've been reloading for over 50 years & enjoy it a lot, I think I know what I'm talking about here.

I really have trouble believing the Handi is capable of handling Ruger #1 pressures, I've shot Ruger loads in a Ruger & it's beyond fun. Please be cautious in loading, interpolating loads can be dangerous. Be safe & have fun.
Thanks Frank

Frank, good advise indeed!

From Tim
But H&R will tell you levergun loads are the limit, but they also state that handloads are not recommended in any of their rifles."  

Again good advise & good to post.
 Rare is the time that a Gun Manufacturer will give a go ahead for handloads & why should they, but they know some will & with that knowledge the let people know the limits, which is in the strong lever catagory. It was a logical way to let people know the strength level & avoid liability of a reloader they can't control.

Speer & Nosler say the same currently about the top catagory: Ruger Number 1 & 3, Browning Mod. 1885 & Mausers properly converted.

As allways some dancing starts occuring when the often asked question "can the handi/BC be loaded to Ruger Number 1 levels. Time to be a little direct, which I do anyway.
1. The HANDI IS NOT AS STRONG AS A RUGER NUMBER 1 PERIOD
2. A person should not be advised that it is ok to load to Ruger Number 1 levels, what does that mean? Instead of a hint that the bottom levels are ok or med. Ruger Number 1 yada yada, any reliable source who can be accountable for what they say will not advise Ruger Number 1 loads.
3. Some have mentioned that the gun would hurt you before you get to that level & for most people they would be right, however that should not be the yardstick because some may add an additional pad, wt. & other things to reduce "felt" recoil & then that rule of thumb is gone.

This is not a bad thing, the Handi is fine for it's purpose & can be loaded with the right bullet to take on anything. I have a Marlin XLR, which again does not need to be loaded to Ruger Number 1 levels at all to do all that I want the 45/70 to do.

[gcrank1]

IMHO, if you want to shoot Ruger No.1 loads, get a Ruger!
Reason: do you want to be holding the H&R (or whatever) when it comes undone with 'the big load'?
Or, like most of us who want our friends to enjoy our toys, do you want your friend to be holding it when it comes undone?

[brianscott12]

IMHO, if you want to shoot Ruger No.1 loads, get a Ruger!
Reason: do you want to be holding the H&R (or whatever) when it comes undone with 'the big load'?
Or, like most of us who want our friends to enjoy our toys, do you want your friend to be holding it when it comes undone?

Point well made and taken. The bc is a bruiser with heavy marlin loads and I don't think I will go any higher.

[nomosendero]

Smart Man.

Good luck & good shooting!

[45LCshoooter]

What they said; levergun and no more. Wondering if slower powders would like the long barrel a bit better. Recoil can't be worse than a Ruger #3 with hot 450 grainers...wouldn't suggest that anyway.

[Spanky]

What's that old saying? Something about leading a horse to water or something...    
Some guys just gotta push things... sometimes they push too far.




Spanky

[tykempster]

Load 'er up to Ruger levels if you dare...I load my 45-120 to 40,000 PSI with no issues other than a few lost brain cells.

60+ grains H4198 and a 300 grain bullet is pretty deadly.

[nomosendero]

What's that old saying? Something about leading a horse to water or something...    
Some guys just gotta push things... sometimes they push too far.




Spanky

Yes, and influence others!

[NFG]

Academically and physics speaking...you WILL get slightly less recoil using a smaller amount of faster burning powder, but it "could" feel like more because the pressure spike is faster, the recoil velocity is faster...takes less time to burn the powder for the same amount of pressure, but that is all subjective anyway.

I get better accuracy with the slower burning powders in my BC and in ALL my other rifles...the old adage of "lighter bullet, faster powder", "heavier bullet, slower powder" fits here just as it fits in all calibers.

As far as "pushing the limit" goes...that is also subjective and many people just don't understand the concept.  Pushing the limit doesn't mean doing dangerous things, at least not for me.  It means working up a load slowly to get to an optimum point of accuracy and velocity. 

I have several rifles and several loads that are over reloading manual recommended loads, but they are safe in that particular rifle for several very good reasons, most of which wouldn't be understood by the "average" reader of forums. 

I still never recommend going over reloading manual recommendations...BUT....anyone who has read more than one manual knows every manual has DIFFERENT data, so it can be very confusing to beginners and advanced reloaders concurrently..."WHICH" is right, which is "over the limit"?

You could say that anyone that goes over the 45-70 28KPSI limit is "pushing the limit" and we all know, or most of us know, the reasons and whyfores that limit isn't reasonable except in very old Trapdoor or maybe replica rifle.

But you are right...some people go to far for any number of reasons and spread their "danger" all over the web.  That's why I continually say "NEVER BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU READ ON THE WEB...FROM ANYONE."

Reloading can be a very difficult and dangerous road to travel.

Luck

[Weatherman68]

I also have a BC 45-70 and I reload.     I called Marlin before they became part of Remington and was told that the rifle shouldn't be loaded over what would be used for a lever action which would leave out the Ruger single shot loads.  Don't know if anyone else heard anythig different but this is what I was told.     

[bikerbeans]

IF you use Hodgdon's posted Lever Gun Data for the 45-70 and the 400 grain bullet w/H4198, a Max lever gun load is actually a midrange Ruger#1 load for the same bullet and powder.  Now NFG, why would you think published data is confusing?

BB

[necchi]

..that is also subjective and many people just don't understand the concept.   

, most of which wouldn't be understood by the "average" reader of forums. 

 so it can be very confusing to beginners and advanced reloaders concurrently...

 and we all know, or most of us know,

Wow,,all that is rather denunciatory isn't it?

  That's why I continually say "NEVER BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU READ ON THE WEB...FROM ANYONE."

Did you ever think that might apply to you? Geez,,

[26-t]

Beating a dead horse. 26-t

[NFG]

Geez, Necci...absolutely, doncha think??..I did say "ANYONE". 

Apparently the "concept" in totality passed right by you because you found something demeaning in a part of the statements...and you obviously didn't understand what I was saying as you took part of the statements out of context, but then if you are an expert you already know all the parameters.

What I stated is absolute fact if you read ANY forum for any time...it is not meant as a flame, diss, "DENUNCIATE", derogate or in any other disparaging, depricative or detracting way.

If beating a dead horse keeps someone from breaking out in stupid then I will keep beating...but not here anymore...this kind of garbage isn't worth my time.


You just proved my point BB.

Luck