Short barrelled shotgun (class 3) question

[Haywire Haywood]

Hi, I didn't see a forum for class 3 stuff, so in the pot belly it goes.

I am wanting to cut my double 12 off to just forward of the forearm release, about 11 inches of barrel length for a short quick house gun.  I want to do this legally and on the up-and-up.  I downloaded the ATF form 4, but that appears to be a transfer form for an existing firearm.  How do I go about chopping mine without running afoul of the law?

Ian

[Pat/Rick]

Isn't a manufacturers license needed to alter or change "class" of a firearm? (personally I would say that the 2nd Amendment is the license, and would vote not guilty if I was on a jury).

[GatCat]

First off, have you checked to make sure that it is legal in the State that you live in? Some States have restrictions tighter then Federal restrictions ( of course, if your State does allow it, you still must get the BATF approval ).
Another thing to consider, is politics, unfortunately. If you can do it, legally, and go ahead with it, think about what might happen IF you ever need to use it...if you live in an anti-gun type area, the fact that it has been shortened so much could persuade a Prosecuting Attorney to charge you, or a Plaintiffs attorney could use it against you in a lawsuit. Like it or not, those are simply facts that you have to consider. Personally, I'd use a factory made 18" pump, or 18" double; I can't think a few inch shorter barrel would really be worth the potential headaches. Then again, that is the same reason, when asked, that I don't suggest using a "military looking" rifle for home defense, like the AR's, AK's, etc. An M-1 carbine, Marlin Camp, Ruger thingie ( forget what it was called ), lever action, etc. etc. would work just fine, and present a much lower profile when viewed by anti-guns folks. Not that I like the idea of having to consider such things, but like I said earlier, it's just a fact of life.
Whatever your choice, good luck.
Mark

[powderman]

HAYWIRE. I agree with Mark, wouldn't be worth the hassle to me. POWDERMAN.   

[LEO]

Contact the BATFE and get the information as far as whether or not you can legally cut your firearm down or if it has to be done by a licensed manufacturer at:
National Firearms Act Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405 USA
Voice (304) 616-4500

Also they can provide you with the proper information as to which form is required.  I do know that after you get the proper form, you have to complete it including fingerprints, photo, Chief Law Enforcement Officers signature and pay the tax and get approval before the work can proceeed.  It would probably be less hassle to just purchase a manufactured short barreled shotgun, Remington, Mossberg, and Benelli make them (there may be others) however these are pumps or semi autos and if you have your heart set on a double then you will have to "make one".  From what my friends who have NFA firearms tell me the BATFE has gotten much quicker about processing applications.  Hope this helps

[Haywire Haywood]

Thanks for the info.  The liability thing is a concern also.  Just because you're legal doesn't mean you don't get harassed with civil suits and charges by overzealous prosecutors.

thanks again,
Ian

[mrussel]

Isn't a manufacturers license needed to alter or change "class" of a firearm? (personally I would say that the 2nd Amendment is the license, and would vote not guilty if I was on a jury).

Theres only a very small chance that you will be on his jury.  I think Massad Ayoob put it best regarding concealed carry,and the same sentiment holds here. He wrote "You’ll hear some absolutists say, “No government has the right to permit me to carry a gun! I don’t need no stinking permit! The Second Amendment is my license to carry!” That is the sound of someone asking to go to jail."

[mrussel]

Isn't a manufacturers license needed to alter or change "class" of a firearm? (personally I would say that the 2nd Amendment is the license, and would vote not guilty if I was on a jury).

My understanding is that you need your CLEO to sign off on it,and then need to buy the tax stamp from atf. ATF should be able to provide guidance in this. Remember to be very carefull of the laws in your state. Just becuase CLEO signs off does not mean your OK. If he makes a mistake,the only thing that happens to him is his opponents have something to use against him come election time,your the one that ends up in jail. I certainly see the point of buying a commercial short barreled shotgun. Rather than someone being able to say "He chopped down a shotgun to make it shorter so it would be easier (not sure how it makes it easier,but thats what they will probably say) to kill people" You can respond, "I purchased a weapon made by a reputable manufacturer after complying with all legal requirements including getting the chief of polices OK on it as per federal and state law" Im not saying dont do it. Ive actually considered it my self on occasion. When I realized I could have the "mad max gun" I thought it would be cool to get one. I wouldn't use it for self defense,actually,I think I would shoot very reduced loads to save my wrist,but it would just be fun to have.

[Haywire Haywood]

Actually, according to the form 4, there is a minimum overall length of 26", so a short barrel necessitates a full length stock (at least on my double).  Cutting it down to 11" of barrel makes the OA length about 27".  

I learned from my stint in the SASS that it's unbelievably easy to miss a 10" circle with a shotgun at 10 yards if you're shooting quickly.  I still want to shoulder it.  No pistol grip for me.  I'd just like it shorter for going around doorways easier.  At least that's the theory rattling around my brain.

I'll probably just leave it as is.  It's the exposed hammer coach gun that I bought for SASS.  It's not terribly long to begin with.

Ian

[45-70.gov]

for  home defense
don't waste your  time for  5 inches
or the  hassle  and every thing  else
you can't cross state lines  with  it  with out  MORE paer work
check  local  laws....also

it  is  ATF form  0ne  not  four...i think

if you  want to cut the  gun  for the  KOOL  factor...thats another story
mine  has  9 inch barrels.....[florida  is OK]
cut  at the fore-end latch
o/u  12 gage
i  designed the removable  stock
but  it never  gets removed

and  note....with  buck shot the pattern is tighter
probly  the loss of power  and  the air  that disperses  the pattern

[Haywire Haywood]

It would be 9 inches that I would cut off.  It surprises me that the pattern would be tighter.  The chokes are improved and modified as is.  The loads I have in there are reduced recoil 00 buck.  I've been thinking about going to a #2 or 3 buck to get more pellets in the pattern.

Ian

[mrussel]

for  home defense
don't waste your  time for  5 inches
or the  hassle  and every thing  else
you can't cross state lines  with  it  with out  MORE paer work
check  local  laws....also

it  is  ATF form  0ne  not  four...i think

if you  want to cut the  gun  for the  KOOL  factor...thats another story
mine  has  9 inch barrels.....[florida  is OK]
cut  at the fore-end latch
o/u  12 gage
i  designed the removable  stock
but  it never  gets removed

and  note....with  buck shot the pattern is tighter
probly  the loss of power  and  the air  that disperses  the pattern

But that cant be true,the gun control people said its a "scatter gun" and I saw a movie on HBO one time where a sawed off shotgun blew away 10 people standing in a 120 arc!

[45-70.gov]

for  home defense
don't waste your  time for  5 inches
or the  hassle  and every thing  else
you can't cross state lines  with  it  with out  MORE paer work
check  local  laws....also

it  is  ATF form  0ne  not  four...i think

if you  want to cut the  gun  for the  KOOL  factor...thats another story
mine  has  9 inch barrels.....[florida  is OK]
cut  at the fore-end latch
o/u  12 gage
i  designed the removable  stock
but  it never  gets removed

and  note....with  buck shot the pattern is tighter
probly  the loss of power  and  the air  that disperses  the pattern

But that cant be true,the gun control people said its a "scatter gun" and I saw a movie on HBO one time where a sawed off shotgun blew away 10 people standing in a 120 arc!

so ..... i got caught in  another  lie
this  gun was already  cut  to  18  when  i got it from a pawn shop  for  $90
so  i just  moved  the cylinder choke  back
i  thought about going up  to  OOO buck....more penetration..to  off-set power loss
also  want to add rifle sights  for slugs......might  be a real nice 50 yard gun  then

[mrussel]

Heres an off topic thought that occurred to me. In another thread,someone was talking about their huge revolvers actually caused damage to their hands. I was thinking sarcastically,if they have to cut it off,you can have a gun built into your prosthesis. Then it occurred to me,arnt handguns "designed to fire from being held in the hands" and rifles "designed to fire from the shoulder" The question then is,if the weapon is built into a prosthesis,what is it,a rifle or a pistol. That would be an issue if it had a short barrel and overall length to be built into the forarm of a prosthetic limb. Yes,its a completely impractical question bordering on stupid,but sometimes odd thoughts like that come into my head.

[mrussel]

Heres an off topic thought that occurred to me. In another thread,someone was talking about their huge revolvers actually caused damage to their hands. I was thinking sarcastically,if they have to cut it off,you can have a gun built into your prosthesis. Then it occurred to me,arnt handguns "designed to fire from being held in the hands" and rifles "designed to fire from the shoulder" The question then is,if the weapon is built into a prosthesis,what is it,a rifle or a pistol. That would be an issue if it had a short barrel and overall length to be built into the forarm of a prosthetic limb. Yes,its a completely impractical question bordering on stupid,but sometimes odd thoughts like that come into my head.

 


Maybe this would qualify under "any other weapon"