45 acp -- 200 grain RN Trail Boss

[Bart Solo]

I have just started wild bunch shooting (1911, 1897 shotgun and a 1892 rifle in 45 Colt.)  To make my life simpler I have been experimenting with loading my 45 acp using  my regular cowboy powder (Trail Boss) and my regular 200 grain RNFP lead bullets.  (We shoot at steel so lead bullets are mandatory.)   My question has to do with bullet seating.  The crimp grove is almost exactly where I think I would want to seat the bullet in the case.  Should I seat it so it is just at the top of the crimp grove, and what about over seating.

[stimpylu32]

Bart

Since the 45 auto headspaces on the case mouth I seat the bullet so the crimp is just ahead of the crimp grove , I tried to seat to the grove but had problems with it wanting to sit too deeply in the chamber ( had to over crimp ) and causing a HS issue .

I also found that I needed a near max load of TB to avoid " Stove Piping " when I shot it in most of my 45 auto's , for some reason a lighter load just didn't cycle the slide properly .

stimpy

[Bart Solo]

Thanks for the input. That is exactly where I am seating the 200 grain RNFP round and why. 

I too am loading close to the max but that is because I want to insure a power rating of at least 150. I am a little concerned about compression as you get close to the maximum load. Fluffy TB doesn't compress well.  I think that is the reason Hodgdon has a relatively low top on it's TB loads in 45 ACP. 

[gray-wolf]

You can try the trail boss but I don't think it's a very good powder for the 45 acp.
I understand what you are trying to achieve but I think you would be better off with any of the many better powders.
  45 head spaces on the case mouth?? -- HERE WE GO AGAIN --
Take some 45 acp cases and size them, then drop them in your barrel ( barrel out of pistol )
do they sit flush with the barrel hood ? I doubt many will.  So much for that myth.
 45 acp shrink when they are shot and re-sized, unless the case is the perfect length for YOUR chamber
( I have about 5,000 of them and they are all different lengths ) they will seat deeper in the barrel
(that is below the hood), at best being held by the extractor.
  Adjust your OAL so that after the bullet is seated and a slight tapper crimp applied--the loaded round will drop into your barrel and the back of the case sits flush with the back of the barrel hood.
  The case is now head spaced on the exposed lead at the end of the case, and all rounds will head space the same.

[stimpylu32]

You can try the trail boss but I don't think it's a very good powder for the 45 acp.
I understand what you are trying to achieve but I think you would be better off with any of the many better powders.
  45 head spaces on the case mouth?? -- HERE WE GO AGAIN --
Take some 45 acp cases and size them, then drop them in your barrel ( barrel out of pistol )
do they sit flush with the barrel hood ? I doubt many will.  So much for that myth.
 45 acp shrink when they are shot and re-sized, unless the case is the perfect length for YOUR chamber
( I have about 5,000 of them and they are all different lengths ) they will seat deeper in the barrel
(that is below the hood), at best being held by the extractor.
  Adjust your OAL so that after the bullet is seated and a slight tapper crimp applied--the loaded round will drop into your barrel and the back of the case sits flush with the back of the barrel hood.
  The case is now head spaced on the exposed lead at the end of the case, and all rounds will head space the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headspace_(firearms)




A weapon with a properly cut chamber will headspace on the case mouth as it was designed to do , while a chamber that is cut too deeply will have no choice but to use the extractor claw to hold the case to the breach face , NOT the way they were designed to work and can be very hard on the extractor as well as the breach face itself .

stimpy

[tacklebury]

Stimpy's right and if you want something very touchy on the case mouth headspace, try a New Model Blackhawk .45acp cylinder.  lol  That's the tightest tolerance I've got in any gun.  It has to be spot on and if I don't smooth any bullet seating bumps, it simply won't chamber them. 

[gray-wolf]

Well sure it's posed to head space on the case mouth, and what is a properly cut chamber ?
one that is cut to spec ? and what is spec with it's + or - ?
  I would say that in order to head space on the case mouth the end of the case has to touch the end of the chamber --correct ? and the case head has to be even with the end of the barrel hood--correct ?
That puts the case head against the breach face--correct ?
I don't know any other way to get proper head space.  If you all do then please explain it to me.
 also what is the correct length for a 45 acp case ?  yes I know what the book Say's it should be.
But they ain't --are they. You can have all the properly cut chambers in the universe and if the case is short then what? and most cases are short, or they will be after a loading or to.  The little buggers get
smaller not longer, and you can't make em longer by trimming them.
  Measure your chamber from the end of the barrel hood to the place it ends in the barrel and see how many cases you have that match that number, and how a bout the ones that are short?
how do you think they are working ?  can only be two ways--one they are held by the extractor
or two they head space on the ogive of the bullet. If the case is the exact proper length then they hit the end of the chamber and even up with the barrel hood. If they are short there going to drop below the hood and that equals away from the breach face.
  Try it yourself, take some cases that have been fired and resize them so they slide in the chamber and see how much they drop past the hood of the barrel. I am sure you will find that many do.
  So again if you are reloading--how do you get those cases to head space without having to be held there by the extractor ?  answer, the little part of the bullet that extends past the case mouth is what does it.  come on guy's I do this all the time with my lead round nose, lead hollow points and lead SWC.
  That's why you can't always go by what a book may say about OAL Especially if you are loading lead bullets, granted you want to be careful if you have to seat a bullet deeper we don't want to increase the case pressure. but to find the best OAL the bullet should be seated and tried in the barrel.  When the back of the case is even with the back of the barrel hood then all the cases will chamber the same way.
regardless if some are shorter or longer than others.  Yes some cases will show a tad more bullet past the case mouth but all will hit the the end of the chamber the same way and all will properly head space.
  Once more if the chamber is cut to .898--22.81mm and your cases vary from --hold on I just grabbed a handful of random cases and I will measure them.
.888--.884--.900.--889--.886--.888--.888--.889--.890--.887 and on, and on
How a bout that there isn't a one that is .898 --they are all short--so what should I do ? throw them away ? No they will head space on the little part of the bullet that sticks out of the case mouth.
  If your cases are short of the end of the chamber and most are there ain't no other way.
Again--try it.
  In all fairness I have to add that with this short case situation and applying the above method of head spacing
the fat part of the bullet that sticks out just past the case mouth may hit and most times does hit the beginning of the rifling, and this keeps the case head against the breach face and with a 45 acp this is just fine.
  Sorry I don't by the correct chamber length idea, that is the chamber being cut to the right length.
has nothing to do with short cases.

As for the revolver--how do you keep a short case from falling deeper into the chamber and away from the fire wall
(breach face ) are you telling me all your 45 acp cases are all the same size and fit perfect--end of chamber to breach face. Every case would have to be perfect size to match that chamber end to end.
  That's why revolvers use moon clips for headless cases.
I know I am presenting a strong argument here and I would very much like to here a logical rebuttal other than a chamber must be cut to the correct size, or perhaps tell me how you get the correct size when all the cases are different lengths ?

[tacklebury]

As for the revolver--how do you keep a short case from falling deeper into the chamber and away from the fire wall
(breach face ) are you telling me all your 45 acp cases are all the same size and fit perfect--end of chamber to breach face. Every case would have to be perfect size to match that chamber end to end.
  That's why revolvers use moon clips for headless cases.
I know I am presenting a strong argument here and I would very much like to here a logical rebuttal other than a chamber must be cut to the correct size, or perhaps tell me how you get the correct size when all the cases are different lengths ?

Only double action revolvers use halfmoon clips.  Single actions load one shell at a time through a load gate on the right side of the action.  Mine's a New Model blackhawk .45 long colt/ .45 acp and you can SEE the chamber ridge in it where the brass seats against it.  If I can I'll take a picture to post up.  Here's some more data for you from the wiki, especially read the section down by the dimensional view where it states:

The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 406 mm (1 in 16 in), 6 grooves, Ø lands = 11.23 mm, Ø grooves = 11.43 mm, land width = 3.73 mm and the primer type is large pistol. The cartridge headspaces on the mouth of the case at the L3 datum reference.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

[tacklebury]

Here's a close-up of the cylinder too.



The .45 colt, although it does have somewhat of a rim actually uses the case mouth to partially headspace also. 

[stimpylu32]

The ave. firing pin will protrude between .025 and .030 beyond the breach face of a weapon and it takes about .005 to .010 for the pin to properly crater the primer cup enough to set off the primer . So even if the case is recessed ( neg. Headspace ) as much as .015 below the barrel hood ( case OL of as little as .878 ) the round could and should still fire .

The case mouth of the 45 ACP is .473 while the bullet is .452 , so the only way for the cartridge to Headspace on the Ogive of the round is for the bullet to be seated into the rifling of the barrel and not set to Headspace on the case mouth as it was designed . Will this work ? Ya , Is this the proper way to do it ? Not a chance .

Another thing to consider is that if the case's are loaded this way , there is a very good chance that they will not properly chamber , or fire in a weapon that has a to-spec. cut chamber .

stimpy

[gray-wolf]

Here is an artical by a well respected shooter and hand loader. 
Perhaps he can say it better than I.
I won't comment any more on this subject.




1911 Head-spacing Method
Norm Johnson

     The .45ACP 1911 was designed by John Browning to headspace on the case mouth but in fact it rarely works this way. The case head is really held against the breech by the extractor. To prove this to yourself, measure the length of a dozen .45ACP cases. You will discover that the cases are all (even newly manufactured ones) considerably shorter than SAAMI specs call for. The resultant headspace clearance would be greater than the maximum allowed, yet the ammo will shoot fine with no stretching of cases or incipient head separation, even after many firings.

     Since 1911 barrels from Colt and other suppliers are normally chambered longer than necessary, and with the additional complication of the short cases, some of us seat our bullets to a length that allows the cartridge to headspace on the bullet. This approach allows for a more consistent firing pin strike and therefore a more consistent powder burn. Accuracy is dependent upon consistent ignition more than many shooters realize; a good reason, incidentally, to keep the firing mechanism of pistols clean. Modern rifles, having a much stronger firing chain, are not quite so subject to congealed lubricants and imbedded dust.

     To accomplish the above head-spacing approach, remove the barrel from your 1911 and then alternately seat the bullet deeper into the case and drop it into the chamber until the case base is just flush with the lip that protrudes from the barrel. Do this with each bullet type that you use in that firearm and either record the OAL or keep a dummy round as a reference. If you seat the bullet too far out, the pistol will not lock up properly and therefore will not fire when the trigger is pulled.

     Some will respond that the above will call for a cartridge that is too long to properly fit in the magazine. However, the above procedure has been used by the author for about 35 years with about every bullet imaginable in approximately 14 .45 ACP barrels and magazines have accepted all without exception. As a matter of fact, in all instances, the bullet could be seated too long in its case to allow proper locking of the action before magazine interference became a problem

God Bless! Norm

"I have used the "headspace on the bullet" for the .45 ACP for over twenty years. In a five year period, I shot 75,000 rounds. The method works - my findings parallel Norm Johnson's."

R. Dale McGee
 
 
 

[Bart Solo]

I am completely confused by the recent posts.  I have been loading my 45 acp using cowboy #4 and now XD #4 200 grain rnfp Missouri Bullet Company bullets to a total overall length of 1.195."  The maximum OAL on a 45 acp is 1.275."  I am well under the maximum OAL.  Because I am new to the 45 acp I have used either the barrel or a cartridge gauge to test each and every round.  The barrel method works well, but the gauge is quicker and I don't have to disassemble the pistol.  I have now shot a couple of hundred rounds using the cowboy # 4 bullets.  The majority have been at 5.0 grains of TB.  The maximum published load for TB for a 200 grain lead bullet is 5.4 grains.  I am well under the maximum published load.  The rounds I have shot at 5.0 grains have been a little inconsistant.  Probably good enough for WB action shooting but still inconsistant. The rounds I have shot at 4.7 grains have been much better.  I suspect the problem has to do wth the bullet, so I have switched to the harder XD#4.  The XD#4 is identical to the cowboy #4 except the lead is harder.  According to Missouri Bullet Co the XD #4 is said to be designed for major power factor loads.  My inconsistancy might also have to do with the fact that I am shooting a new gun with new low relief sights and I just don't see and hold as well as I did 20 years ago, but that is an alternative theory.  By the way I have read some authors who believe I should set my lead bullets to headspace off the bullet.  I believe they argue there is less lead fowling and the lead bullets are more accurate.  That might be true, but I am still trying hard to headspace off the case mouth.  I am too new to the acp to go against JMB.  None of my cases have been fired enough to shrink significantly.

My concerns about compression have been erased by careful measurement.  The 5.0 load isn't compressed at the depth my bullet is seated.  Compression is the reason I don't think you should load a 45acp with more than 5.4 grains of TB.   I am using TB because I don't like having a lot of different powders around and I regularly use TB for my cowboy loads, but over the next few months I am going to load some HP38 rounds from a can I have.  I think I have enough powder left for a hundred or so rounds.  If they work out better I will probably go to HP38 (WIN 231.)  I am hoping the TB rounds work because I am a firm believer in KISS.  

By the way others on the web have written about the exact same 1.195" OAL Cowboy #4 45acp bullet.  Not surprising since that is the OAL you get when you seat to the  top of the crimp groove.
 
Anyway I am very confused by the last posts.  

[stimpylu32]

Sorry Bart , I kinda let this topic get WAAYYY off course .

As for the TB loads , what do you mean by inconsistent ? Is it the groups or action cycling that is not the same ? I do agree that another powder may be a better choice , either the HP38 or even Bullseye should do a better job , yet I also understand the KISS method of reloading .  Why make things harder than you have to .

Again , Sorry for the off-track posts .

stimpy

[gray-wolf]

I am sorry that you are confused about the article I posted about lead bullets seated to contact the lands of the barrel.  It is just another way of explaining what I said in my other post.
Lets go over some of the things you have said in your last post.  I am not sure of the type of shooting you are doing in relation to you using special bullets for the competition you are doing.  But it sounds like you want to use-- or have to use   a flat nose bullet.  Any way.

I am completely confused by the recent posts.  I have been loading my 45 acp using cowboy #4 and now XD #4 200 grain rnfp Missouri Bullet Company bullets to a total overall length of 1.195."  The maximum OAL on a 45 acp is 1.275."  I am well under the maximum OAL.  

[/color]
  Yes the Max OAL a bullet should be seated in a 1911 45ACP is 1.275.  That is so the loaded round will function through your Mag., and is mostly for round nose bullets.  It does not apply to YOUR bullet because it has a different nose shape.  I doubt you could load that bullet to 1.275 and have it chamber.
  Bullets are shaped a little different according to there different purpose and design.  So in your case with that bullet forget about 1.275.

Because I am new to the 45 acp I have used either the barrel or a cartridge Gage to test each and every round.  The barrel method works well, but the Gage is quicker and I don't have to disassemble the pistol.

[/color]
  Yes the Gage will work and will tell you if there is an anomaly of some sort  that would not allow your bullet to seat in a standard 45 ACP chamber, And that round could be adjusted or discarded.
  If you set your OAL using the method in my post or from the article I posted ( both the same )
You will seat a bullet a little long and it will not enter your pistol barrel all the way -- you want it flush or just a tad below ( very little below ) the end of the barrel hood. Keep seating the bullet a little at a time until the correct length is found--do this with a dummy round and make sure you remove the case flare at the end of the case or it will hang up in the chamber.  Then you can save that round and use it forever with THAT
particular bullet for your OAL.  Measure it with your calipers and make your loaded rounds the same length.
  That will put your case head against the breach face and just contacting the rifling.
Trust me there is nothing wrong with this method of setting up your head space.  It will work fine for your bullets, and should help with your accuracy. If you have a problem with getting every bullet the same length
that is some may come out of your seating die with a slight difference in OAL--  Then once you are set up to be even with the end of the barrel hood reduce that OAL by .003 or .005 for a little margin of error.
  At this point you will have the ideal OAL for that bullet.  Unless you have a pistol that is very finicky about what it will function with that setting should work fine.  Always check to see that your bullets will function in your pistol, feed and extract.  I like to make up 6 or seven dummy rounds for each different bullet that I use.
  You can still use the Gage to check for bullets that are to fat or ones that may have a bulge in them which would not make them chamber.  Some folks use a Lee factory crimp die to post size there loaded rounds.
  I don't use them --I have found they can reduce the size of some lead bullets and give you a leading problem that you don't need.

The rounds I have shot at 5.0 grains have been a little inconsistent.  Probably good enough for WB action shooting but still inconsistent. The rounds I have shot at 4.7 grains have been much better.  I suspect the problem has to do with the bullet, so I have switched to the harder XD#4.  The XD#4 is identical to the cowboy #4 except the lead is harder.  According to Missouri Bullet Co the XD #4 is said to be designed for major power factor loads.

[/color]

OK on this subject I think you are a little upside down.  I don't think your accuracy problem has anything to do with your bullet hardness.  TB powder is a low energy powder and your loads should not be up there in the high pressure range, The Min. load for TB is 3.5 for about 650 fps  with the 200 gr. lead bullet and a little over 9000 CUP and 5.5 Max. with about 800 fps and about 16,000 CUP.  Most definitely not screaming along and way below safe operating pressure for the 45 ACP.  With that said you do not want a hard bullet,  you should be fine with a hardness of about 10 or 12 brinell hardness.  Your bullets may not obturate ( bump up ) with the harder bullets.  A good lube and a bullet that is not to hard will seal your bore and should give good accuracy and not lead your barrel.  You should slug your bore and measure the slug, at it's widest points that is the groove diameter of your barrel.  Your bullets should be .001 or .002 over bore diameter for lead bullets
to have there best accuracy and NOT lead your barrel.  

My inconsistancy might also have to do with the fact that I am shooting a new gun with new low relief sights and I just don't see and hold as well as I did 20 years ago, but that is an alternative theory.

[/color]

At some point you will have to figure out just what is causing your inconsistency.
You ? the pistol ? your grip ? your ammo ? your site picture? and so on. you can't guess at some of this.

By the way I have read some authors who believe I should set my lead bullets to headspace off the bullet.  I believe they argue there is less lead fowling and the lead bullets are more accurate.  That might be true, but I am still trying hard to headspace off the case mouth.  I am too new to the acp to go against JMB.  None of my cases have been fired enough to shrink significantly.

[/color]

  That is exactly what the article tells you to do and what I have been telling you.  I don't think you quite grasp it yet.  Drop your cases after sizing into your barrel if they sink  below the barrel hood They will not be against the breach face.  They can't be in two places at the same time.  Not unless that nasty extractor holds it in place.
But lets not go there and give everyone a fit.  Stop chasing that head space thing and seat the bullets to contact the rifling and put the OAL thing to sleep.  Re read the article I posed a few times.

My concerns about compression have been erased by careful measurement.  The 5.0 load isn't compressed at the depth my bullet is seated.  Compression is the reason I don't think you should load a 45acp with more than 5.4 grains of TB.   I am using TB because I don't like having a lot of different powders around and I regularly use TB for my cowboy loads, but over the next few months I am going to load some HP38 rounds from a can I have.  I think I have enough powder left for a hundred or so rounds.  If they work out better I will probably go to HP38 (WIN 231.)  I am hoping the TB rounds work because I am a firm believer in KISS.  

[/color]  
  
Your KISS may in this case -- and I say may  be doing more harm  than good.  Trail boss is not my best choice for a 45 ACP ( OK here come the flames ) why bother with all concerns over compression and what ever else may be involved with it.  Load some Bulls Eye or tite group powder or even long shot if you want good velocity and low pressure and be done with it.  Some things are not one size fits all--it's a fact of life.
  But that's up to you, Long shot will get you what you want with nice case volume, it's a little dirty in small amounts but then I doubt slow burning TB is very clean. But again your choice.

By the way others on the web have written about the exact same 1.195" OAL Cowboy #4 45acp bullet.  Not surprising since that is the OAL you get when you seat to the  top of the crimp groove.

[/color]

I wouldn't be surprised if the bullet had to be seated to that length and couldn't be seated any longer because of it's shape.

I truly hope some of this helps you, it sounds like you need a little more understanding of what is going on here.  I don't say that as a knock on you.  I wouldn't have spent a half hour to type all of this if I weren't truly trying to help.  We don't live in a perfect world -- a place where everything is made and done according to spec.  

  Don't over crimp your bullets --just enough taper crimp to remove the case flare.  Over crimping does nothing to hold a lead bullet in place--and may even help to loosen the hold on the bullet.

Sam

I must add that I have the upper most respect for everyone that post on this forum
I just don't agree with everyone all the time. Like I said we don't live in perfect made to spec world.
If you don't agree with my thinking then you are free to do as you please, or double check what I have sugjested.
  In any case I hope some it helps.

[Bart Solo]

Thank you all for your comments.  Yep I am still learning about reloading the 45 acp.  I am experimenting with Trail Boss in this role because I reload thousands of cowboy rounds every year.  I buy TB by the 5 pound canister.  I don't like having too much powder around the house.  I don't live on a farm.  I don't have outbuildings, so I want to stay safe.

I have already come to the conclusion that gray wolf is probably right about the hardness issue.  The XD #4 has a brinnel number of 18 while the cowboy has a brinnel number of 12.  Having read gray wolf's analysis and compared it to the various charts, I now believe he is right, and I have bought 500 hard bullets for nothing.  

The inconsistency I am talking about concerns accuracy.  The only time my pistol has had any cycling problems occured when I first bought the pistol and I was shooting factory bullets.  They went away very quickly and were traced to a magazine now out of service.  Since I graduated to lead and changed magazines I haven't had a single malfunction.  The accuracy is just not what I would like.  

I am not trying to make high performance bullets.  I am trying to make good servicable low cost steel target bullets with a power factor of 150--lots of them.  If I am using a 200 grain bullet that means a bullet that runs at least 750' per second.  Note that 5.0 is much closer to 5.4 than 3.5.  My guess is that creates a pressure of between 14,000 and 15,000 CUP in the little acp case with a good taper crimp.  I haven't chronographed my bullets yet, but I suspect that they will run along at 750-785 feet per second at my altitude and current temp.   You are right that and even the max of 5.4 grains is well below the maximum pressure of the acp, but TB is fluffy.  You darn near fill up the case at 5.0 grains.  I suspect at 5.4 grains the case is close to full and any more means you are compressing the bullet.  One thing that is well known about TB is that it doesn't handle compression well.  More than anything else I had to make sure the bottom of the bullet didn't sit down into the TB.  

My goal is the same as I have with my regular 45 LC loads once I find the right combination I will probably quit playing with the formula.   In fact I only load one 45 LC round.  I use it in both my pistols and my rifle.  

I know all about bullet shape and the effect it has on the OAL of the 45 acp.  I haven't tested the rnfp bullet to figure out exactly what the maximum lenght should be, but I am pretty sure it isn't 1.275.  It is probably around 1.220 or right in the middle of the crimp grove. Not a good place for a taper crimp.

 I am willing to learn.  I just don't understand how the conversation stumbled into a discussion of where the 45 acp is supposed to headspace.  That wasn't my question, but it might be the solution to my accuracy problem.   Of course my problems might be solved if I go to a 230 grain rn softball and bullseye.  I just want to keep things simple and take advantage of volume discounts.

[tacklebury]

Well, there are many ways to skin a cat of course.  I use Dardas 200 gr. with 5 gr. Unique and get about 700 loads per pound and with the $78 per 1000, it's quite inexpensive and they're accurate.