Polyfiber wad used in 45-70 loads

[Blackhawker]

I had read somewhere here on the GBO site that the use of a polyfiber wad can eventually cause a ring of widening around the chamber of a rifle, just around the area where the case mouth is located upon chambering.  Is this true or a myth?  I use polyfiber batting (polyester) in some of my 45-70 loads.  The old Lyman manual shows lots of loads using the wad while the later Lyman manuals do not even mention the use of the wad, nor do they show the same loads that were listed in the older manual which used the fiber wads.  I wonder if this is due to chamber rings developing.    Does anyone know about this that can actually show or have seen PROOF of this?

[Smokin Joe]

I noticed the same thing re: Lyman. Might be interesting to see what they say:


http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/contact/

[Blackhawker]

I noticed the same thing re: Lyman. Might be interesting to see what they say:


http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/contact/

Thanks for the link.  I decided to call Lyman today and I now have an answer.  The first reason I was given was basically because too many people were packing wads in cartridges like they were packing a muzzle loader and the heavy balled up wads were becoming second projectiles.  I asked about "ringing" in chambers and she said that there are some people that report ringing as well but for the most part she seemed to imply that they did away with showing loads with wads because so many people were using too much and packing it in too tightly.  She didn't say this but I can see how packing too much in can possibly raise chamber pressures and then it possibly becomes a liability to the load manual author so it's better to just do away with it for legal reasons.   

I still don't know if I should continue using polyfiber wads or not though.     I like to use 2400 in my 45-70.  The rep told me that when using 2400 to just make sure I tip my rifle back before shooting it (with a chuckle). 

[stimpylu32]

BH

I have used as little as 10g of both Unique as well as TrailBoss in my 45/70s and never have used a filler , even with carrying it muzzle down for some miles I've never had a FTF , and those loads were with standard LR primers .

I can't see were 2400 would be any harder to fire than either of those two powders in a case the size of the 45/70 .

stimpy

[Blackhawker]

BH

I have used as little as 10g of both Unique as well as TrailBoss in my 45/70s and never have used a filler , even with carrying it muzzle down for some miles I've never had a FTF , and those loads were with standard LR primers .

I can't see were 2400 would be any harder to fire than either of those two powders in a case the size of the 45/70 .

stimpy

You're probably right, especially since I'm shooting 500 grain bullets which seat halfway down the case.  Nonetheless, I'm always wary of the powder sitting on the side of the case and just below the flash hole which can cause detonation.  ...just being safe and maybe a little overcautious as well. 

[moorepower]

Trailboss fills the brass 2400 is just a dab. I have seen psi test results from powder setting in different parts of the round and I was really surprised at the results. I think they were using Blue dot, but their was a large pressure swing in relationship to where the powder was.

[jhalcott]

 I have chronoed loads with and with out polyester wads. There ARE differences in velocity doing this. A straight case is best as a bottle neck can cause more problems with the wad. The wad should be big enough to JUST FILL the space between powder and bullet BUT NOT crush the powder. MY gun is a strong BOLT ACTION, yours may be much weaker. I would suggest that you use powders that fill the case rather than use a wad in your gun.

[stimpylu32]

Trailboss fills the brass 2400 is just a dab. I have seen psi test results from powder setting in different parts of the round and I was really surprised at the results. I think they were using Blue dot, but their was a large pressure swing in relationship to where the powder was.

You do have a valid point as to Blue Dot being a sometimes un-stable powder , however TB , Unique and 2400 are very forgiving as to location in a case as large as the 45/70 , also the weight / volume ratio for all 3 is not that much different with Unique and 2400 being the closest .

stimpy

[BBF]

My preferred powder is now 2400 for both jacketed and cast bullets. I do not use a filler in any case. I have also used Blue Dot with cast bullets and had no problems with it either.

I did use cotton wads as a filler when using Triple Seven even in a 30-06 just to fill up the space.

[Blackhawker]

When I use the 500 grain bullets I use 25 grains of 2400 under them.  This fills the estimated remaining open space of the case about halfway.  So, in theory, if I tip the case sideways, the powder level should be right across the flash hole area.  If it dips forward slightly, the flash from the flash hole can dangerously detonate the entire powder charge at once instead of burning it from back to front as it should.  This is why I use a bit of polyfiber in these loads.  I weigh the wads and they weigh roughly 1 to 2 grains each.  Basically they are enough to just hold the powder back.  I'm definitely NOT stuffing the cartridge at all...it's a very light amount.  I've noted that my accuracy is better (believe it or not) when I use the wads with the same given load above.

By the way, as a warning, this load is only used in a STRONG and MODERN rifle....a  Wesson and Harrington Buffalo Classic.  I would not even use this load in my Thompson Contender.

[BBF]

Interesting!!
I use the same type and amount of powder without any filler to push a commercial cast bullet that weighs around 438 to 443 gr. I do not know who made the mold but it is the best grouping load I have and pleasant to shoot.

[Tommyt]

When I was reading about subsonic loads I saw where they recomend using a wad and the 45-70 was
on one of the tested Loads
They say Magnum Primers increased loads
but I THINK they said that the masg Primer should be used because of the Longer ignition

Remember I THINK that is what I read
I think I remember that being typed


Shoot Safe

Tommyt

[Larry Gibson]

Son't use the dacron as a wad if that worries you. Most "ringing" that has been documented has been with a variety of other materials than polyester fiber. I have shot thousands of 45-70 loads with dacron fillers.  The filler is simply a 1 gr piece of the dacron that is inserted into the case and the bullet pushes it down to the powder.  Thus it simply fills the case and keeps the powder positioned to the rear against the primer.  More consistent ignition and better accuracy are usually the result.  I don't use a filler with Unique but do use it with 2400, 4227, 5744 and slower burning powders in the low end trapdoor level 45-70 loads and the top end loads in my Siamese Mauser 45-70.  I usually find a powder reduction of 3-4 gr is in order to get the same velocity as without the filler.

BTW I have also measured the pressure and the time/pressure curve of such loads using an Oehler M43.  I have not found any indication of a problem what so ever with polyester used as a filler. As a matter of fact I find the use of the polyester filler to be a great benefit in 99% of the times it is used.  Mostly where not needed is with the faster burning powders which ignite easily and when loading density is 85+ %.   

Larry Gibson

[tacklebury]

Yah, I've never needed it with my Unique loads.  Even light round ball loads with 6gr. Unique in a .45-70 never have failed to fire for me using CCI 350 Pistol primers.  

[BBF]

tacklebury:
Do you use any kind of lube on those loads.
BTW I have tried a few of those 150 gr Collar Button bullets and so far they are all over the landscape. I haven't seen any published loads for that bullet either.

[tacklebury]

I only use a bit of liquid alox on them if I am going to carry them to the field and they might get wet.  Quickdtoo posted a nice collarbutton load sheet, but alas, I cannot seem to locate the post and my saved copy didn't save right.  It saved as a .mhtml something...  8(  Perhaps he'll see this and repost his collarbutton data. 

[BBF]

                Tim ??   Please !