Author Topic: Ruger guns & FBI database  (Read 2737 times)

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Offline stymie

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Ruger guns & FBI database
« on: October 11, 2010, 05:13:38 PM »
A friend told me that RUger keeps bullets fired by their handguns and file them with the FBI for help in id the gun which killed someone.. Is this BS or true..??? I have a 44redhawk 4' barrel that I really like and was considering gettina another but if it is true I will go S&W...

Offline mrussel

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2010, 06:13:31 PM »
A friend told me that RUger keeps bullets fired by their handguns and file them with the FBI for help in id the gun which killed someone.. Is this BS or true..??? I have a 44redhawk 4' barrel that I really like and was considering gettina another but if it is true I will go S&W...

 Honestly who cares. I dont plan on committing armed robbery or murder any time soon. I guess if I do,I should use my old JC Higgins that doesn't even have a serial number and just dump it at the scene of the crime. Good luck tracing that.

 In all seriousness why is this so terrible (if they decided to do it voluntarily,which honestly,is probably just a bunch of internet rumor BS) Imagine that the police have ballistic information your gun for some reason. (say,the previous owner shot an intruder with it,was cleared of any wrong doing and the gun was returned) You sell it to your neighbor and a few months later the police having asked the previous owner who he sold it to,come knocking on your door and explain that a couple was shot (by someone NOT matching your description) and their six year old daughter was kidnapped in a Walmart parking lot. Do you tell them who you sold it to or lie and say you sold it to some guy at a gun show (they will probably beleive you,its a credible story,if you really want to protect a violent pedophile). How different is that than Ruger telling the police information on where a handgun was sold so they can track a gun used to shoot someone. I can see an argument made about forcing crazy requirements on manufacturers that will increase their costs and drive them out of business,which in many cases is what these sorts of schemes really are,but if they CHOOSE to do it,I dont see how I can fault them. The only time something like that would come into play with any of my guns is if someone stole them and shot someone with them. In which case,I would certainly LIKE the police to be able to connect the dots between the finger prints they found on the discarded crowbar that pried my door open and the shooting in another town that was done with my gun. Thats why I dont care in the least about microstamping either,except that its pointless and makes the gun more expensive. (I wonder if there is a market for Glock firing pins with a picture of a hand with a raised middle finger micrstamped into it?) Thats why I'm against it. (have ANY crimes really been solved with this?) I really dont care if they can somehow trace my brass to my gun.

If this turns out to be true though,I would suggest getting rid of that Redhawk as fast as you can,even if it means selling it to some guy on the internet for 100 bucks. You dont want Big Brother having any info on your piece. I know its huge sacrifice but rather than making you drive all the way down to the river to throw it in, I will take one for the team and take it off your hands.  ;D

 Now,if you feel like boycotting Ruger,theres allways the "Ruger Letter" where William B Ruger suggested banning high capacity magazines as an alternative to assault weapons legislation. Honestly,I see his point,even though I dont agree with it. His proposal was to get rid of all the scary plastic rifle bans and simply ban the magazines over 10 rounds. Considering that magazines over 10 rounds WERE banned for a time (and still are in some states) I think we can all agree that as a ALTERNATIVE to a ban on arbitrary features that makes much more sense and is something we would all hate,but could live with much better than the stupid laws that ended up defining an assault weapon in terms of things like a bayonet lug. (I mean seriously,does any criminal REALLY stick a big knife on the end of gun and stab people with it instead of just shooting them?) That being said,the reaction to his statements was exactly as you would expect and in fact,Ruger the company has backed away from those statements, now sells high capacity magazines to the public (they didn't at the time) and W.B. Ruger is now dead.

Offline GatCat

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2010, 10:01:43 PM »
I think that your source is confusing the fired bullet that is packaged with all new handguns, because some States keep a registry of such things ( not that it has ever done any good, AFAIK).
In those States, when a new handgun is sold, the sample bullet is sent to the State by the selling dealer, so the State can record who first purchased the handgun.
I'm not sure, even if the story you heard is true, how Ruger would do it, what, send each bullet with it's weapons serial #, to the FBI, so if a recovered bullet from a crime is determined to possibly have been fired from a Ruger, they could check the many thousands of fired bullets supplied by Ruger, IF they find one that matches, determine the guns original purchaser, then ask them if they still own the weapon?
Possible, I suppose, but like I said, I think you source is confused.
Mark

Offline Tallwalker

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2010, 02:57:34 AM »
Ruger does ship a fired cartridge case (not bullet) with all handguns now. Several states require it, or you can't sell guns in that state. Actually it might be a Federal requirement now, but I'm not certain about that. If you think Ruger, or any  gun company wants to hire someone to shoot that round, and do all the paperwork involved you are sadly mistaken. Of course the law makes even more sense for revolvers. :D The bad guy would have to leave a whole cylinder full, or be unlucky enough to leave the right one at the crime scene. These laws may go away because there have already been cases where a  match in primer indent, etc. wasn't considered good enough evidence which gun the round used in a crime came from.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2010, 04:06:00 AM »
The whole concept of "ballistic finger printing" is largely BS. It has been demonstrated time and again that matching a recovered bullet to a suspect firearm is front with errors. There is no such thing as "a perfect match" since two bullets fired successively from the same gun will not bear identical markings. So it always comes down to the technician's "opinion" as to whether or not the markings are "close enough" to declare a match and that is never an unbiased opinion. When he is handed a gun to test he already knows that the investigating officers suspect it will match so he knows what they want from him.
 A fine example was the case of Claude Dallas who shot two game wardens in Idaho. A tech was given a .357 bullet recovered from one body and a Ruger .357 revolver. He declared a match. That was a serious problem for the prosecution because what the tech hadn't known was that it was not Dallas's gun but was the gun of the principal witness against Dallas. The tech had stated that the recovered bullet had definitely been fired from the suspect gun. But when the state threatened to bring in an outside technician the state's tech then revised his opinion to say "it probably was NOT fired from that gun".
 Matching of cartridge cases with firing pin indents and extractor marks is even less certain than matching bullet to bore and in my opinion neither is conclusive enough to be allowed as evidence. Far too many people believe the crap they see on TV. They think "scientific evidence" is indisputable fact when really nothing could be farther from the truth. This link provides some reality.
http://www.mcrkba.org/BallisticFingerprinting.html
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2010, 04:45:54 PM »
Ruger does ship a fired cartridge case (not bullet) with all handguns now. Several states require it, or you can't sell guns in that state. Actually it might be a Federal requirement now, but I'm not certain about that. If you think Ruger, or any  gun company wants to hire someone to shoot that round, and do all the paperwork involved you are sadly mistaken. Of course the law makes even more sense for revolvers. :D The bad guy would have to leave a whole cylinder full, or be unlucky enough to leave the right one at the crime scene. These laws may go away because there have already been cases where a  match in primer indent, etc. wasn't considered good enough evidence which gun the round used in a crime came from.

 Its not federal. My RIA came with the case. They allways include it,becuase its easier that way as they dont know where the gun will end up being sold. In places where they dont require it,it is given to the customer. Come to think of it,I should press a bullet into it and make a keychain out if it.

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2010, 04:57:08 PM »
just  buy  a fire lapping  kit  from  LBT

and quit  worrying

it  will shoot better  and  lead  less

and  change the  ballistic  markings
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline painted horse

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2010, 07:19:10 AM »
just  buy  a fire lapping  kit  from  LBT

and quit  worrying

it  will shoot better  and  lead  less

and  change the  ballistic  markings

Now THAT is an excellent idea.  A perfect example of thinking outside the box. That is something I do to all my handguns, to the detriment of none, and a BIG plus to most, am thinking of trying it with my centerfire rifles as well.  Way to go..good thinking...

Offline southernutah

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2010, 08:18:22 AM »
the fired case prints the firing pin and chamber. a little light polishing  done deal

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2010, 08:48:51 AM »
Its not federal. My RIA came with the case. They allways include it,becuase its easier that way as they dont know where the gun will end up being sold. In places where they dont require it,it is given to the customer. Come to think of it,I should press a bullet into it and make a keychain out if it.

I didn't go the keychain route, but I DID take the case that came with my P95 and reloaded it along with all my other brass.  It got shot again along with the rest of them :).  Not sure but it might have even ended up in the reload pile again.  Semi-autos are pain to recover brass from.  Seems like I never come back with more than 65-70% of the cases I shot.   :(  That's one of the main reasons I've been shooting my S&W .38 Special revolver and my Ruger Standard .22 lately.  The .38 is dirt easy to keep track of the brass, and with the .22 I don't have to worry about it in the first place :D.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2010, 06:35:46 PM »
Its not federal. My RIA came with the case. They allways include it,becuase its easier that way as they dont know where the gun will end up being sold. In places where they dont require it,it is given to the customer. Come to think of it,I should press a bullet into it and make a keychain out if it.

I didn't go the keychain route, but I DID take the case that came with my P95 and reloaded it along with all my other brass.  It got shot again along with the rest of them :).  Not sure but it might have even ended up in the reload pile again.  Semi-autos are pain to recover brass from.  Seems like I never come back with more than 65-70% of the cases I shot.   :(  That's one of the main reasons I've been shooting my S&W .38 Special revolver and my Ruger Standard .22 lately.  The .38 is dirt easy to keep track of the brass, and with the .22 I don't have to worry about it in the first place :D.

 You clearly not shooting at the right ranges and the right calibers. When I got the range,I usually end up with more than I went with,at least when Im shooting 45acp. Anything with reach in a caliber I shoot MUST have come from my gun.

Offline Flash

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2010, 02:46:55 PM »
In Maryland, the fired case gets shipped to the state police when the gun is sold so Ruger started supplying fired cases in all guns, not just Md. guns. Other states could even be on the list by now. This has been going on for years.
What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger!

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2010, 05:57:16 AM »
Maryland's law is a perfect example! It has cost the state millions, has cost gun makers and dealers an unknown but substantial amount and has yet to solve a single crime. ;D
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2010, 06:29:14 AM »
Its true value is indicating what brand or model of gun fired the case and/or bullet. Yes, proving the exact gun that fired it is not at all full proof. i.e. Glocks fired cases have a definate signature. Subject matching the witness description possessed a Glock of the same caliber when apprehended by police... etc.

Offline Flash

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2010, 12:55:07 PM »
Maryland's law is a perfect example! It has cost the state millions, has cost gun makers and dealers an unknown but substantial amount and has yet to solve a single crime. ;D

I'm not speaking in defense of this law, by any stretch of the imagination but I must ask, where do you get your information about it costing Maryland millions?  ::)
What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger!

Offline mrussel

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2010, 06:22:11 PM »
Maryland's law is a perfect example! It has cost the state millions, has cost gun makers and dealers an unknown but substantial amount and has yet to solve a single crime. ;D

I'm not speaking in defense of this law, by any stretch of the imagination but I must ask, where do you get your information about it costing Maryland millions?  ::)

It all depends on what they do with the cases. Its plausible if they send every case to the lab and enter the information into a database in an attempt to be able to match them to ones found in crimes. It seems to me that is exactly the problem. If you have a single case that was found at the scene of a crime,maybe you can tell if it came from a particular gun that you suspect was used in a crime. It all depends on the situation and if the gun is leaving unique marks on the case,and how unique those marks are. From what I have a scientist with any integrity should not be willing to write "This cartridge came from this gun" except for unusual circumstances. (say,there is a chip out of the tip of the extractor that leaves an otherwise inexplicable and distinctive mark) What they SHOULD be saying is "This cartridge is consistent with the weapon used in the crime. Furthermore it has these unusual features,and they are also consistent with the weapon used." Thats the most such an analysis can tell you,but that's not what prosecutors and police want to hear. As such,we end up with those scientists that can be badgered or coerced into throwing their integrity in the trash and saying whatever their bosses want them to.

The problem with collecting a cartridge from each gun is,how do you catalog them in a way that is useful. One thing I dont get though is the panic and fear that the idea of cataloging this information creates. I see its wasteful and useless. But the fear that somehow this will be used against you is absurd. First,its pretty much useless. Second,while the chance of my gun matching a criminals is very real,the chance of ANYTHING else linking me to the crime is remote. The chance of the two together happening is damn near impossible. Its much more likely that I was driving the same kind of car as the criminal,resembled the criminal,and was near where the crime was and that my gun WONT match,and that instead of having to worry about a erroneous match being used to convict me,none of my guns will match.
 This isn't going to really worry them at all however. After all,I have many guns,maybe I just tossed that one in the river or took the acetylene torch in my garage to it. In other words,there are thousands of far more plausible ways to be falsely accused of a crime than having your cartridge matched to a criminals. (has this ever happened?) In fact,my 1911 came with a fired cartridge. I bet now that I have fired a few thousand rounds through it,it wont match cartridges that I fire now. If your that paranoid though,take your new gun,and polish all the parts up and fire-lap the bore. Then you KNOW it wont match. That wont help you though. An over zealous prosecutor and someone in the lab who wants a promotion more than he values his integrity may well find that a cartridge fired from a Glock magically matches the ones fired from your 1911. That being the case,who cares if they have the real case from your gun,which no longer matches yours anyway. For that matter,who cares about micro-stamping,which does in fact leave a uniquely identifiable signature on the cases. From that,Im in no danger at all. The only thing that tells them is if Im stupid enough to commit a crime with such a gun without changing out or polishing off the end of the firing pin. A smart criminal would go buy a microstamped Glock. They would then go buy a new barrel,firing pin and extractor and use those. They would then swap all the original parts back in and keep the gun. That way if the police suspected them,they would take their gun and test it,and find that it was NOT the gun that was used in the crime.

Im against these things because they are pointless burdens on firearms manufacturers,becuase they make guns more expensive,and because its a pointless waste of government money. A single extra police officer on the streets will solve far more crimes than these measures ever will.

 I think its a bad idea for a completely different reason. Its a waste of money,which was enacted by people who watch to much CSI.

Flash, in reality,the witnesses statements are some of the worst evidence you can get. I witnessed a shooting once. I could have sworn it was a automatic the guy had. My friend standing beside me said it was a revolver knew the make and model of the gun. He knew it becuase he owned one. He was probably right. I was almost certainly mistaken,but to this day I still remember that he was holding a stainless semiauto. What really happened of course was that I didnt really look too closely at the gun. I saw it and what I remember was simply that he had a gun. The rest I filled in when the police questioned me. Thats how memory works. You dont encode a bitmap image of every single thing you see. Your brain filters out what it thinks is important and throws out the rest.

 There is a classic experiment that shows this. A man walks up to a bus stop with a portable radio. Someone then runs by and steals it. The people at the bus stop are then questioned as to what the radio looked like and what the thief looked like. Typically everyone gives widely differing answers. In fact,they will often not only screw major details like what color and size the radio was but even get facts like what race the thief was wrong.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2010, 04:24:24 AM »
Maryland's law is a perfect example! It has cost the state millions, has cost gun makers and dealers an unknown but substantial amount and has yet to solve a single crime. ;D

I'm not speaking in defense of this law, by any stretch of the imagination but I must ask, where do you get your information about it costing Maryland millions?  ::)

Google it and you'll get dozens of hits, here's just one.
http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/bfprint/index.html
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline mrussel

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Re: Ruger guns & FBI database
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2010, 01:17:47 PM »
Maryland's law is a perfect example! It has cost the state millions, has cost gun makers and dealers an unknown but substantial amount and has yet to solve a single crime. ;D

I'm not speaking in defense of this law, by any stretch of the imagination but I must ask, where do you get your information about it costing Maryland millions?  ::)

Google it and you'll get dozens of hits, here's just one.
http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/bfprint/index.html

 Articles like that are actually part of the problem not part of the solution. The article is correct on many accounts,but takes its facts and muddies them up with plenty of opinions and plenty of political rhetoric. If the point of the article is that the ballistic fingerprinting is ineffective,then it should stay on topic. That is a fact,supported by other facts and in fact as the article said even democrats are on-board with repealing it. It then goes on to say that all gun control is equivalent in ineffectiveness to the ballistic fingerprinting and is a evil plot to take away our guns. Thats where he messed up. There is just no way that we are ever going to convince most Americans that making it legal for convicted rapists and armed robbers to walk into gun stores and buy guns is a good idea. The laws that prohibit rapists and other violent criminals from legally buying guns are of course forms of gun control. When someone suggests ALL gun control should be eliminated,they are in fact making it more difficult for the rest of us. Now Joe American classes me in with those kind of nut jobs and thinks we are all of that same opinion. Thats why people need to stay on topic. If ballistic fingerprinting is a failure,then say that. Cite the evidence to support THAT conclusion and argue that that specific law should be repealed. Dont go off on a tangent about how instant background checks take away 15 minutes of your life and therefore are an intolerable intrusion on your 2nd amendment rights. Dont start going on about the motives of the "gun grabbers" which is in fact opinion as most of the people that support these things really dont care that much,but instead just thought it sounded reasonable and it actually did at the time. Now that we know it does not work,and the police admit it does not work,then its not that hard to convince all those reasonable people that repealing it is a good idea and that the money is better spent on things that are proven to work. On the other hand,when you come off like that article did you lose that audience all together. The effect of that article is that all the people that ALREADY agreed,will sit there and nod there heads and slap each other on the back and say "See,that's what Ive been saying all along". All the people that absolutely DON'T agree will of course ignore every single valid point,but no matter how well it was written they would do the same thing,they are just not reachable. Joe American however reads that article and sees that the author had an obvious agenda. He probably then ignores everything it says becuase he knows its just another "nut" trying to justify his position,even though the article has alot of very valid and well supported points (mixed in with the politics and opinions), If the article had stuck to its point and stayed away from the politics,it might actually reach Joe A. and convince him to change his mind,since he really does not care that much about guns at all.

 In other words,it would be far more effective to say:
    "Although many people thought it was a good idea at the time,others were of the opinion that the ballistic finger printing law was not going to yield any evidence that would help in any law enforcement activities. Now,after 2.5million dollars was spent,the police themselves have determined that the law is ineffective and the money would be better spent on clearing the backlog of DNA evidence which has a proven scientific track record. Repealing the law has garnered bipartisan support with many democrats,who historically support gun control measures and resist repealing them supporting such action."

 A statement like that seems to be much more effective in convincing people that repealing such laws is a good idea. Actually,as far as I know,they STILL have such a law and that article was written 5 years ago,so the waste must be MUCH MUCH more than 2.5million now. Of course the statement that it has not solved a single crime may also be similarly outdated,although I suspect that the number will be very low.