surprised !

[irold]

I had a reality check last week.  Went on a Boar hunt , took my Ruger,44 mag.  On deer, I've been using a load comprised of a Hornady 240 grain XTP-HP over W 296.  Its getting me around 1400 fps from the 7 1/2 barrel. Figured this ought to do for hogg too.   Well , I believe my 44 actually ran out of steam on the front shoulder of said hogg.  At about 35 yards, I put the first shot right on the point of the shoulder, Mr. Hogg ambled off as though not even being hurt.  The second shot hit about an inch and a half from the first.....that one punched through...gave me blood and bubbles from the far side.  I did recover the first bullet....picture perfect.  Peeled back , retained 2/3 of the original weight.  Perfecr mushroom !   Guess my shots should have been placed more to the rear  ?   But I really did think the 44 would break down the front shoulder....Not blaming the bullet, just we must be aware that the mighty mag handguns aren't as mighty as we sometimes make them out to be.  As handgun hunters we must know the limitations of ourselves and our weapon of choice.   Just food for thought !

regards , irold

[shot1]

I remember Bob Milek doing a right up on hog hunting with the 44 mag in Guns & Ammo magazine once. He used a Ruger Red Hawk. He found that for getting through the gristle place on the shoulder those bullets that were made for shooting silhouettes FPJ (flat point Jacketed) like the 250 gr Sierra if my memory serves me was what he used. They would punch through and would expand a little but the flat point helped in the killing about like a cast SWC but you could push them to higher velocity without leading problems.

[mcwoodduck]

Bullets are strange creatures.
And no two act excatly the same.
Fewer grains of powder in one that the other.
One loaded on a humid day and water fouled some of the powder, loose crimp, and any hundreds of factors that could explain why the two loads did not exactly the same.
I find it hard to believe that a 240 grain bullet at 1400 fps would get stuck in a shoulder.
But as I said, no two bullets act the same.

[Scibaer]

the shoulder and gristle on a hog is tough stuff, as with any shot, its all about placement, your first shot was just that 1 inch off and that tough pork shoulder absorbed the .44mag's energy.  you were using a jacketed hollow point, it did its job, mushroomed out, and slowed down quickly....i think a hardcast  bullet would have been a better choice in that situation.. a .429 dia. hole is plenty big , and a hardcast lead bullet would have drove deeper into that shoulder i think
 if you can, post up a pic of that hog. and congrats on the kill.

[Graybeard]

When a hog goes over 200 pounds shooting in it the gristle plate isn't a smart move with any JHP. I personally don't even like to use JSP for that task from revolvers but instead trust heavy hard cast bullets.

I long ago went on hog hunt in TN at Tellico Junction then run by Joe Meeks. My hog was around 200 give or take a few pounds. They had no scale. There was an old man hunting for a museum specimen. He was a curator of one museum but was getting a hog for a different museum.

He used a .375 H&H I don't know what bullet or weight he used but 270 grains or 300 grains are the standards so likely one or the other but brand/construction I never found out. He too shot the shoulder into the gristle plate of what had to be close to 400 pounds of hog and recovered his bullets. They failed to give full penetration.

On smaller hogs most bullets can exit even on shoulder shots but those over 200 pounds especially boars don't bet on it. Take a quartering away shot behind the ribs into the lungs or better yet a head/neck shot.

BTW I dropped mine with a Hornady 300 XTP-HP between the eyes from about 15' with the guide running away yelling for me to shoot it between the eyes as it came directly toward me. Was it charging or was I just in the way of where it wanted to be? Dunno and don't matter the result would have been the same had I not put the bullet in the right spot.

I found that bullet lodged in the front shoulder on the hog's right side. Total penetration thru skull and then meat was at most 12" to 14". Not enough for me so I decided that heavy hard casts were proper hog medicine after that.

It really depends on the size of hog and where ya put that bullet. For head/neck shots a JSP or even JHP is fine I think as they are on smaller size hogs. The big boys take more bullet or proper placement in head/neck.

[irold]

All interesting thoughts , perhaps a little more research on my part should have been in order.  The bullet went where I held.  I'll post a pic of the XTP I recovered....really text book.  Even in the pic of the Hogg hanging up ya can see where the shots entered the shoulder.  I can't imagine a cast doing any better , with the same entry point. ( the pigs were not weighed , said mine was around 250 )   All arm-chair quarterbacking now........we had a good time, got some pork.  The best part , I saw my sons both take theirs with a bow !  My youngest....his first critter !  Priceless !

regards , irold

[tacklebury]

Congrats and good info.  I had been trying the std. XTP's also in 250gr. for my .45 LC, but with a heavy load of H-110 have had them de-jacket in mid air and spray shrapnel at 75 yards.  I think they'd do well with deer possibly, but have returned to the XTP Magnums.  I am loading the 300 gr. XTP magnum with 21.2 gr. H-110 (seriously stiff) and also in a midrange load with 11 gr. Unique.  I shoot a New Model Blackhawk and these are showing no pressure issues and are safe in my gun anyway.  I am also prepping a set of these under Reloader7 for my .45 Colt BC and intend to use them for opening day.  I was hoping to try some different leads as my long range load just hasn't been staying consistent with the 255gr. LSWC's I've been loading.  Hoping that by next year I can load develop some cast boolits my shooters like.    Unfortunately, I don't even see a XTP Magnum in the .44 range, although the -.430-240-gr-CL-SIL appears to be the closest construction to the magnums.  Good luck and hope you find a good hog stopper for next time. 

[Ken ONeill]

Lots of writers and quite a few others love to advise people to "...shoot for the point of the shoulder to break him down...". If that makes them happy, fine and dandy.
EVERYTHING I have learned in hunting big game for many years on 6 continents has taught me to avoid deliberately taking such shots if possible, and instead to shoot for the top of the heart / bottom half of the lungs. In very few animals does the heart lie directly behind the front leg or shoulder knuckle. To generalize, for whatever that's worth, in most broadside shots, a shot straight above the rear edge of the leg, and about 1/3 to no more than 1/2 way up the body will do the trick. Shots will be missed, and shoulders will be hit, but that doesn't make such hits a good idea.

[Junior1942]

To shoot a hog, especially a boar, with a bullet designed for shooting deer is asking for a tusk-shredded leg or worse.  As several others stated, use a hard cast with a wide meplat.  IMHO, the best 44 mag hog bullet ever designed is the Lee C430-310-RF cast in wheelweight alloy.

Here's a looksee:

[pruhdlr]

My experiences with hog hunting have been somewhat "tame". I started out coming to hunt in Fla using a 1894Marlin,16",44mag. The swamps that I hunted gave me a max shot of 25yds. From the boat on a small stream was much closer. I never had a chance at a "big" hog and regularly killed the 80-150 pounders. All this using a hot'ish handloaded 240gr Hornady XTP.

Then on one trip I got a glimpse of a good sized boar that wanted to stare me down. I switched to the 300gr XTP's. This outta both the Marlin and my Desert Eagle. I killed several good sized hogs with both of the weapons and the large XTP's. The end result was always a dead hog,sometimes after a 30yd blood trail.

Now living in Fla and hunting some of the larger hog areas, I use my 444Marlin with a 300gr Cast Performance WFNGC. Or on Eglin AFB,I use my Handi-Rifle chambered in 45-70 with handloaded 405gr WFNGC's. Several years ago I killed a 300lb boar with the latter combo. Hit square on the shoulder it completely penetrated breaking both shoulders and deflating the lungs. Just before I shot this hog I got a very brief glimpse if a hog that weighed probably another 100(or so) pounds.

Basically I believe that If you prepare for the biggest,nastiest,boar hog in the woods,everything else is a "cakewalk". If I hunted with a 44mag nowadays,I would use a 300gr+ WFNGC(hardcast) over as much powder as I could shoot accurately at the ranges that I planed to hunt at. I personally believe that there is not a hog shoulder made that this bullet(at 44mag velocities) will not penetrate.

My next hog gun that I am building up right now is a NEF Handi chambered in 500S&W Mag. My bullet of choice will be a 440gr WFNGC(hardcast). This, for a Texas hunt on a farm that "supposedly" has some 400lb boar wondering the property. ---pruhdlr

[Mikey]

Greybeard x 2.

[SHOOTALL]

I shot a boar that weiged over 250 . Used a 300 WM 180 frderal prem. bullet. Shot him in the neck , a slight angle but not much. Like GB it was comming my way not sure why . The bullet stopped at the spine . The hog just stood there for what seemed a very long time. It fell over kicked a couple times and died. I shot a deer with another round out of the same box at over 250 yards . The deer was facing me and the bullet hit about an inch to right of center on the chest and exited out the right rear hind quarter.
My point them pigs is tuff critters .

[Merle]

I had a reality check last week.  Went on a Boar hunt , took my Ruger,44 mag.  On deer, I've been using a load comprised of a Hornady 240 grain XTP-HP over W 296.  Its getting me around 1400 fps from the 7 1/2 barrel. Figured this ought to do for hogg too.   Well , I believe my 44 actually ran out of steam on the front shoulder of said hogg.  At about 35 yards, I put the first shot right on the point of the shoulder, Mr. Hogg ambled off as though not even being hurt.  The second shot hit about an inch and a half from the first.....that one punched through...gave me blood and bubbles from the far side.  I did recover the first bullet....picture perfect.  Peeled back , retained 2/3 of the original weight.  Perfecr mushroom !   Guess my shots should have been placed more to the rear  ?   But I really did think the 44 would break down the front shoulder....Not blaming the bullet, just we must be aware that the mighty mag handguns aren't as mighty as we sometimes make them out to be.  As handgun hunters we must know the limitations of ourselves and our weapon of choice.   Just food for thought !

regards , irold

I had a similar experience a few years ago in central CA. Two thru & thru shoulder hits from a 30-06 using 180 gr bullets. Heart & lungs were shredded, but the tough old boar just wouldn't lay down until he ran out of blood.

At that point I gave up the thought of using a handgun for next year's trip.

    

[pruhdlr]

It is my belief that a 454Casull,either of the Linebaugh's,460S&W mag,or the 500S&W mag will put a hog down faster than a high speed rifle bullet. Especially if you combine speed with wide meplate and hard'ish hardcast.

The very best would combine both. The above outta a longer bbl'ed carbine would be my pick. A 458" cal,coming from 45-70 brass,using a 400+gr hardcast, outta a 18" bbl would be 'bout perfect.---SAWMAN

[Lloyd Smale]

I once personaly witnessed a hog being shot with a 41 mag using 210 hps. The grizzle sheild stopped two bullets. We chased down the pig and the guy hunting took my 45 colt using a 255 cast at 900 fps and dropped it in its tracks.

[Junior1942]

It is my belief that a 454Casull,either if the Linebaugh's,460S&W mag,or the 500S&W mag will put a hog down faster than a high speed rifle bullet. ....

The reason is dwell time.  Think of an empty beer can shot with a BB gun and a 22-250.  The BB knocks the can over.  The high velocity 22 bullet doesn't even make the can wiggle.

[SwampThing762]

The dangerous nature of the wild hog is the exact reason why I now use 12 gauge slugs, and not the Foster design.  I use .68 caliber Lyman slugs and my own hardcast .52 caliber sabot slugs now.  I have not had a hog run far yet.   The entry and exit wounds are unbelievable.  I get performance comparable to Dixie Slugs without the high price. If you want to continue using a 44 Mag, try the Hornady 265 grain Interlock FP over 20.8 grains H4227 with an OAL of 1.535 inches.   I would think that should be a good load, as the bullet was designed to be a moose buster in 444 marlin.

ST762

[Larry Gibson]

irold

Very good information, the 1st XTP did what it was supposed to do.  As you surmised you just put it into the wrong place.  The heart and major lung vessels do not lay directly behind the "point of the shoulder" especially in a pig.  As Ken ONeill link states; Lots of writers and quite a few others love to advise people to "...shoot for the point of the shoulder to break him down...". If that makes them happy, fine and dandy. EVERYTHING I have learned in hunting big game for many years on 6 continents has taught me to avoid deliberately taking such shots if possible, and instead to shoot for the top of the heart / bottom half of the lungs. In very few animals does the heart lie directly behind the front leg or shoulder knuckle. To generalize, for whatever that's worth, in most broadside shots, a shot straight above the rear edge of the leg, and about 1/3 to no more than 1/2 way up the body will do the trick. Shots will be missed, and shoulders will be hit, but that doesn't make such hits a good idea.

What Ken states is very sage advice, especially on the larger pigs.  To many have too much faith in "magnum" hanguns.  They certainly will kill but the quickness of the kill leaves many disappointed.  Congrats on the quick 2nd shot. I always continue to shoot as long and with as many good shots can be taken. I do not expect the animal to DRT as too many expect, unfortuneately.  Nothing really wrong with the XTP and I use them with complete success in my .357, 41 and .44s.  For me they have proven to be better (quicker) killers, even on large pigs, than hard cast. But then I aim to put the bullet, from rifle or handgun, in the heart, not on the point of the shoulder on deer, elk and pigs.   

Larry Gibson

[irold]

  Larry , Thanks.

You stated much better than I.  I have all the faith in the world in the XTP , especially after recovering it.  It was my shot placement that was bad.  The second did the trick....being a inch or so more rearward. 

I have learned much from my pig hunt.  Also, we must not over estimate the power of our "magnums".

regards  irold

[countryrebel]

I shot a hog the other day to butcher. Camera was not on the hog at the shot but just after. That 240xtp did a good job between the eye's at about 5 yards with my SRH. Bullet exited, will post vid when I get a chance. irold, Post a pic of your recovered bullet, I would sure like to see it. Thanks

[petepaaz]

Shot1.....I also read that article and you recalled correctly except for the bullet weight...it was a 220gr Sierra Sillouete Bullet. The jacket was very heavy with no lead exposed except the flat nose which was slightly short of being flush. He had had failures with the existing SP Bullets of the time. He always seemed to favor lighter jacketed bullets rather than the existing heavier cast bullets. He also bemoaned the failure of a "hard cast" 148gr .357mag bullet bouncing off a black bears skull. So his answer was to stay lighter but with a heavy jacket; recognizing that the only way this bullet would expand at all is with a target having an unusually tough gristle-plate or heavy bone.....and this only minimally with most energy used for penetration.
    I wonder if Bob Milek were still alive today, would he still hold to the high speed-lighter bullet philosophy. We currently have the greatest bullet selection ever. Personally, I think heavy, hard cast bullets with wide metplate is the most likely to penetrate the vitals and still provide enough shock to stop them.

[bubbinator]

I went on a Hog hunt in Sunflower, AL (about 40 miles past the end of the earth in AL, you could hear the tugboats on the Tombigbee River thru the trees).  My sponsor killed a nice pig in the AM, we paused for a long rain shower, and then after lunch I shot a large sow (200 lbs+) with an HK91 (.308) using 150 Fed SPs.  I saw the bullet impact and blood from about 75 yds, hitting her mid-chest just behind the front leg.  Bullet exitted but we still had to run her down (great blood trail) and finish her with a 45 ACP HP to the head. She was still on here feet almost a 100 yds from POI!  Note-while stalking earlier in the morning and checking the pig traps, we saw three alligator trails across muddy roads very near the river that bore tracks larger than our hands!

[SwampThing762]

The light weight high speed bullet theory has made a fortune for Roy Weatherby and the gun makers because of the new whizzbang warp-speed cartridges.     However, I happen to side with James Gates of Dixie Slugs and our patron saint Elmer Keith (doffing my hat in respect) and the notion of a very heavy, slow moving bullet that "lets a lot of air in, and a lot of blood out".   My slug load is a 450 gr hardcast LFN at 1560 in the 2.75 inch rendering and 1650 in the 3 inch rendering.    My last hog that got shot weighed 119 lbs field dressed and hit the ground with three legs, essentially.  I accidentally pulled the shot up and right to hit the shoulder.  The shoulder joint was destroyed, almost blowing the leg off. The exit wound was the size of a silver dollar.    Inside, the lungs and other tissues were like Jello.     This load is all I need for anything in the world, including African game.    Happy hunting, guys, and may you keep your knife sharp and your powder dry!

ST762

[Mohawk]

When a career hog guide has statements of hogs shot in the vitals with a .300 Win mag and never being seen again....... I believe it. And he is not a fly by night guy. He had a show on TNN Outdoors. Was charged in 01 and put a slug through the sinus cavity to stop him. Hogs never surprise me....

[Lloyd Smale]

Jacketed pistol bullets work fine on deer. there thin skinned with little fat and small bones. When you step up to black bear or hogs they may be close to the same size but there build differnt and personaly i wouldnt hunt them with any jacketed bullet out of a handgun. Im sure something like a partition would do fine but for the price of a couple boxes of premium handgun bullets a guy can but a complete casting setup and make a bullet that is much better and make them basicaly for free for the rest of your life. I have NEVER shot ANY animal with a cast bullet that was hit in the right spot that wasnt in the freezer the next day.

[Larry Gibson]

Lloyd

I don't think anyone is saying that a cast bullet put in the right place, from a .44 magnum load in a handgun, won't effectively kill a deer, bear or hog.  I think what we're simply saying is that a proper jacketed bullet from the .44 magnum put in the same place will kill just as well and if it expands it will kill quicker.  I know this might be a surprise to hard core cast bullet shooters like you and me but there are a whole lot more handgun hunters using jacketed factory ammo or with jacketed reloads than use cast bullets.  The jacketed bullets have been killing deer/bear and hogs for many years.  The whole concept of "bullet failure" has been over exagerated justification for some to use heavy, hard cast bullets in handguns.  Siefried (SP) killed a water buffalo with a hard cast heavy bullet from a .45 Colt down in Australia and published an article in G&A touting the need for the heavy hard cast bullet for "penetration". Since then it seems every deer/elk/bear/hog has deveped armor plating also requiring such bullets.  The reasoning is the same for gawd aweful magnum rifles to kill little deer with.  The old C&C bullets won't kill anything anymore without complete "bullet failure" and only $1 - $2 apiece custom bullets will now kill bambi's father. It just isn't true.  The older bullets still kill just as well. 

Elmer used 240 - 250 gr SWCs cast of 1-16 or 1-10 alloy, not 300+ gr WFN hard cast, heat treated bullets.  He didn't have any problems with penetration and the 1-16 alooy SWCs will expand when shot at 1400+ fps.  Irold is honest enough to admit to placing that 1st shot badly instead of blaming his error on "bullet failure".  His 2nd, properly placed shot dropped the hog.  A bad shot is a bad shot no matter what it is made with.  Now Lloyd, you and I agree on most everything but did not that 2nd properly placed XTP kill that hog quite well?

Those who want to use heavy hard cast bullets should just say; "I like to use them" instead of attempting to justify their own choice by criticising everything else.  I use JHPs, JSP, HP cast bullets cast soft to expand and hard cast bullets in all my hunting revolvers and rifles for that matter.  I know which I prefer and the reasons for it.  However, I also am quite confident that any of them will kill deer/elk/bear and hogs if I put the bullet in the right place.  I have done so with all of them. 


Larry Gibson   

[SwampThing762]

Hi, Larry.  Good post, however, the OP was commenting that he was surprised his bullet did not get desired penetration.  I had very similar issues when I used to hog hunt with a M44 Mosin Nagant carbine and Winchester M94 Trapper carbine.   On two different hunts, I hit the hogs multiple times and they did not go down immediately.    Not a good situation.   I then switched to a 12 gauge slug gun.   I started by using Remchester slugs (as they were cheap enough)  and then Dixies or Lightfields.  I now cast my own slugs.  My handcast slugs smack the hogs with the force equivalent to the opening of Valhalla's gates.   Haven't looked back since.   Hope your bullets continue to hold up for you.

St762 

[ratgunner]

I guess the bottom line is 240 grn. HP's arent the best choice for heavy hogs and black bear.

[irold]

Folks,   I finally got around to taking a pic of the recovered bullet.  Started out as a 240 XTP.........this is what is left.  It weighed in at 218 gains.  This was the first shot to the shoulder, the only one recovered.  I'm a firm believer in the XTP.  I still believe the bullet performed well.......and Ratgunner,  I woud not hesitate to use a XTP on bear or another hog.  As in any form of hunting....shot placement!

regards  irold

[SwampThing762]

irold,

have you thought about stepping up to the 300 gr xtp if you are going to stay with the xtp bullet?  also, do not discount the 265 grain hornady fp.   you may wish to try that bullet as a change of pace.  I think you will be pleased with results as it was designed as a moose buster.

ST762