Handloads vrs Factory

[stimpylu32]

Another member brought this up in another post and I think it is a good topic to think over , Does it make a difference if your using Factory or Handloads in your carry gun ?

Myself , I use only Handloads for all my carry handguns , Why ? because I practice with my loads and I know just what there going to do EVERY time I pull the trigger .

Some will say that the " home made " rounds were made to kill faster or to do more damage , or one of a dozen different things , well BULL , my rounds are just like any other , their made to STOP a threat , be it 2 or 4 legged .

This just my take on this , your opinion's may very . 

stimpy

[bilmac]

If you ever have to shoot someone with handloads the other guys lawyer will definately paint you as a crazed killer just looking for someone to shoot with your sooped up man killer bullets. I love handloads too, but if I think there is a chance I may have to defend myself, then it's time for the factory stuff.

[Old Syko]

Stimpy you and I have both been involved in this conversation before.  I think our beliefs are the same.  Absolutely no one has ever presented case law to show it makes any difference whether you use handloads or factory ammo to stop an assailant.  I will stick with what I know and trust, and only I make em.

Stimpy you're just trying to stir the pot again ain't ya?   

[jimster]

I have read all the horror stories about self defense and handloads, have to say never heard of it happening in this part of the state I live in.
I have certain revolvers that all I have are handloads, and do carry them from time to time.

I would think someone could make short work of a lawyer who tried to say a handload was going to kill someone faster than than a factory hollow point, which our soldiers are not allowed to use in war, where you do try to kill the enemy very fast.

You should be able to use a Buick if it's self defense and it's all you got with you.  Stop the threat is the only criteria needed.
Once again...I guess it depends on where you live and how bad the people in charge are that bring up such silly things.

I guess just tell them the factory loads are too dangerous...had to load em down a little bit.  

[Old Syko]

I guess just tell them the factory loads are too dangerous...had to load em down a little bit.  

But your honor, I only had E85 in the tank at the time.   

[jimster]

But your honor, I only had E85 in the tank at the time.

HA!...coffee almost went up my nose...now that's funny!

[stimpylu32]

Stimpy you and I have both been involved in this conversation before.  I think our beliefs are the same.  Absolutely no one has ever presented case law to show it makes any difference whether you use handloads or factory ammo to stop an assailant.  I will stick with what I know and trust, and only I make em.

Stimpy you're just trying to stir the pot again ain't ya?   

Who ME ? 

Actually a co-worker and myself were talking about this the other day also , all he shoots are factory HP's , weather its for practice or for his CCW gun and I asked him why ? He said that its to have the same ammo all the time , sounds reasonable till you consider that he buys what ever is on sale , sometimes its Win , sometimes its PMC or Rem .
 
The problem is that even Factory rounds form different lot may or may not shoot the same POI , let alone cycle the same in his auto loader , myself I want to know FOR SURE that the ammo in my gun is going to do what I want it to do EVERY time .

stimpy

[ironglow]

Some guns require specific leade concerns for optimal performance..not available in factory ammo.

[Old Syko]

For practically all my handgun needs, probably over 90%,  I use cast slugs only.  Cast slugs have been made in the same basic manner since the beginning of firearms.  How in the world can they be considered more potent than the new high tech stuff offered today.  I guess I would have to be convicted on the basis of being old fashioned and believing in proven concepts.   

[mcwoodduck]

Strange things happen in the Blue states.
In CA you are not allowed to stagger your mag.
You know hollowpoint FMJ, hollowpoint.  It was big in the late 70's and early 80's for pocket pistols.  Giving you expansion and penitration.
They say it shows intent.  You want ot kill the attacker.  Most would say well DUH!  If I was fearing for my life and had to shoot him I ....
Same with hand loading, and you can be suied by the robber if he survives or his family if he does not. For intentionaly making ammo that is either too deadly or made to wound and disfigure.  Jurys have awarded money to robbers who shot at the home owner and were wounded by the homeowner.
Best to just buy a commercial loading with a high one stop shot and carry them after making sure they work in your gun.
"All I wanted to do was Stop him, so I got the best one shot stop ammo available, at the store"

[williamlayton]

I am not here to call anyone a liar---OK.
I have heard these stories but no one has ever pointed me to proof that  1) This has Occurred  2)That it occured and it held up as arguement.
I reload--buttt-I don't carry reloads----I like GOOD Commercial ammo.
A person shot will not be able to tell you how fast that bullet was going.
Blessings

[GH1]

My CCL instructor warned me about the potential liability for using handloads, but he also said he had no evidence either way. So for me, it's cast handloads at the range and Hydra-Shoks for carry.
GH1

[jimster]

If it's true that lawyers have used handloaded ammo to convict anyone of anything after a true self defense situation, then these same lawyers could also make a case for using the dreaded HYDRA-SHOK!  "YOU USED WHAT?  What is a HYDRA-SHOK?  (then proceeds to show a picture of the body with a huge gapping hole) why didn't you use TARGET AMMO...or something else, but you used...HYDRA-SHOK AMMO!  It says here is EXPANDS to TWICE it's size!"

None of this is true....all a myth.  Maybe the ammo companies put this myth out there, good for business.   

[LocnLod]

Handloads for practice in 38 but factory for practice in 9 cause it's still cheap enough for me.  Factory for carry, whatever the prevailing law enforcement choice is.  Currently Speer Gold Dots 135+P and 124+P respectively.

[S.S.]

As there are no recorded cases where this was argued and won,
I worry none about it. I carry what I practice with, and
I practice with my own loads. I can no longer afford the fancy factory stuff
anyway in practicing quantity.

[ironglow]

From what I have been told...surprise..some lawyers will use any term or slang to bolster their case, while playing to the jury. If the bad guy is  hit with a .357, before the jury it becomes a .357 MAGNUM..using the dreaded "eagle claw like, talon bullets..which rip and tear their way through flesh".
  The slug may be "an inexpensive home cast simple, poor man's protection" (to the defense lawyer);
                ... or a
"custom made bullet with destructive features built in to cause maximum pain and trauma"..(prosecution)..and be the same slug..
  
                         Gotta rename those bullets... Glaser 'safety slug" sounds good...

[nodlenor]

When I took the concealed carry class I asked one of the instructors this question and he said as far as he knew there wasn't anything wrong with using reloads in yor carry gun. I realize some lawyers will try anything to win a case but I don't think that intent can be proven just because the ammo was reloaded.

[Scibaer]

This is interesting, there is about 14 posts in this thread, that say ( in paraphrase, i use my own hand loaded ammo, but for  carry  i use factory ) for whatever reason.. it just has an aire of unsurity or an unconsious lack of trust in the legal system we are subjected to, if we have to stop the threat with lethal results.  the reality is, with my familiarity with the courts and legal system, if the cops on the scene have any uncertainty  or the prosecutor has a flag to wave, the shooter is going to get raked over the coals and really fight to protect themselves.  what ammo was used, factory ( terrible hollow points) or reloaded ( for maxium damage ) is secondary to the fact that a person was carrying a gun ( intent , just looking to kill someone ) with a lawyer who just wants to pad his reputation with a win.

[SHOOTALL]

Stimpy you and I have both been involved in this conversation before.  I think our beliefs are the same.  Absolutely no one has ever presented case law to show it makes any difference whether you use handloads or factory ammo to stop an assailant.  I will stick with what I know and trust, and only I make em.

Stimpy you're just trying to stir the pot again ain't ya?   

Not to cloud the issue with facts there was a guy who's wife used his hand loads which were very week and for target shooting. They were loaded in the samd brass as his carry ammo. There was little powder res. on his wife that commited suicide so the guy was convicted . You may want to check out other articles by Massad Ayoob for others . Rember reality is not what we think it should be it is what it is !

[SHOOTALL]

Also if you use what LE uses in your area then who can complain ? Its the gold standard in your area right. Why do anything that could be used aginst you ?

[jimster]

I'm not worried about any ammo being used against me, because it's never happened anywhere around here, ever.  I have some revolvers in 45 colt, that do get carried from time to time,  I don't even have any factory ammo for those, so it's always handloads for those.  Massad Ayoob...is from the East coast...nothing about that place or what they do is anything like where I live, so his opinons don't do me much good, and although I have read many things by him, I have not agreed with all of them either.  He is knowledgeable about a lot of things, but he also has "opinions".

We won't find ANY cases where it WAS legal to defend with lethal force, or WOULD have been, EXCEPT when using handloads. Period. It's either legal to use lethal force, or it's not.  Until someone can find me a case where self defense was OK...except for "whoops" used the wrong ammo....it's all a bunch of BS.



 

[LocnLod]

Aren't the arguments against handloads for defense pointed more towards a civil suit from the dirtbag's dirtbag family than a justifiable homicide hearing?  I mean, you could be justified and cleared and then still get sued right? 

[Old Syko]

Not to cloud the issue with facts there was a guy who's wife used his hand loads which were very week and for target shooting. They were loaded in the samd brass as his carry ammo. There was little powder res. on his wife that commited suicide so the guy was convicted . You may want to check out other articles by Massad Ayoob for others . Rember reality is not what we think it should be it is what it is !

No facts here.  These are merely the musings of a man that makes a good living in part by writing.  Everything the man writes is filled with his own opinions that he tries to balance against reality.  If you take the time to research his musings you'll find there is more to each reference than he puts into print.  I guess I'm just happy to not live in a part of the country that is so corrupt that such things are an issue.  

We won't find ANY cases where it WAS legal to defend with lethal force, or WOULD have been, EXCEPT when using handloads. Period. It's either legal to use lethal force, or it's not.  Until someone can find me a case where self defense was OK...except for "whoops" used the wrong ammo....it's all a bunch of BS.

Now this is fact.

[jimster]

Aren't the arguments against handloads for defense pointed more towards a civil suit from the dirtbag's dirtbag family than a justifiable homicide hearing?  I mean, you could be justified and cleared and then still get sued right?

Not in this state...once it's justified no civil suit can be brought against you in another court.
This law passed about seven years ago, it also protects police officers I think when they are justified in having to shoot.

[Scibaer]

Aren't the arguments against handloads for defense pointed more towards a civil suit from the dirtbag's dirtbag family than a justifiable homicide hearing?  I mean, you could be justified and cleared and then still get sued right? 

not in Michigan, the Gov recently changed the law to prevent just such situations from happening. The castle doctrine rules where either rewritten, or new rules were added to the peaceable journey rules to enact laws to prevent dirtbags or thier surviving next of kin in bringing lawsuits against someone who uses a lethal threat against a dirtbag.
 i was recently told by a saginaw county sheriff that if you are not breaking the law, and a dirtbag does, and you need to use lethal force to protect you/your family then , you will ok against being sued, by the criminal or his next of kin.  we were specifically talking about the rapid increase in car jackings in the city of saginaw , when he told me that car jacking and package snatching falls under the peaceable journey rules. 

[Mikey]

I shoot reloads and carry reloads for defense.  I have not ever been able to find a court case in which the defendant was either charged foir using handloaded ammunition or faced additional scrutiny for doing so. 

There have been a couple of gunwriters who will always advocate for the use of factory ammo to avoid some sort of liability that has never yet come to the fore in any situation.  Massad Ayoob once made the mistake of finding fault (liability and a adverse courtroom) with handloaded ammo in defensive shooting situations but when challenged he could neither provide evidence, proof or a case in which handloaded ammo had been a issue.  In fact, I believe he, as a Deputy Sheriff, was never even involved in a defensive shooting situation in which a citizen had used handloaded ammo. 

You really need to understand that when it is all over and the bad guy is down and the smoke has cleared, the issue of handloaded ammo will never come up, unless you open your mouth and put your foot in it.   

[LocnLod]

Yeah, I don't think VA has that protection. 

[mcwoodduck]

I

You really need to understand that when it is all over and the bad guy is down and the smoke has cleared, the issue of handloaded ammo will never come up, unless you open your mouth and put your foot in it.   

The corroner will put what bullet was used in his report if it is still in the body.
The Police will put what brass was collected at the sceene in his report as well as any bullets recovered.
Don't think that you are not going to have your shooting go with out questions and an investagation.

[jimster]

The corroner will put what bullet was used in his report if it is still in the body.
The Police will put what brass was collected at the sceene in his report as well as any bullets recovered.
Don't think that you are not going to have your shooting go with out questions and an investagation.

Nobody is saying they won't collect brass and bullets and answers to questions. Lots of questions.
I was just saying if they decide it's justifiable homicide after those things, it stays justifiable regardless if you use a gun/bullets, or a shotgun, or a brass fireplace poker. Never heard of anyone getting convicted on bullets in a justifiable homicide.  

I totally agree with all about being extra cautious, I know there are prosecutors and judges who are not good at all and have made good people flat broke on self defense, I totally agree. Just never heard of bullets being a reason for conviction. If it ever happened at all..would have to be Washington D.C., and that don't count!  Their crazy there.  

[S.S.]

During a real lean time last year for a local Police Department,
I Loaded their ammo! so the local police were carrying Reloads
for about a month. So instead of carrying what the police carried,
the police carried what I did. Technically they were not reloads
because I used new components not fired. This all is a Mute point as
this arguement only makes the lawyer look stupid and unprepared for court
if they were to use it.