Author Topic: Cryptic Message in from CW (Read 5045 times)

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #30 on:** October 20, 2010, 05:17:40 PM »

Bolt came out and apart easily. Firing pin not broken but bent. Hmmm. Shroud marked not W but E.

Perhaps a looseness of mismatched parts? Case still firmly in chamber.

Time to change focus and get back to cannons and mortars!

Double D · « **Reply #31 on:** October 20, 2010, 06:03:36 PM »

Looseness of mis matched parts would not do that. Absent spring tension all the parts should be loose.

I am surprised that no one has come up with that article. The Garands will slam fire like that. That's why we welded a tail on Garand firing pin.

Has anyone done a trigger job on that gun? Perhaps stoned the sear and sear notch. Has the trigger spriong been clipped.

Looking a the picture of the cock piece, it looks like the sear notch is hooked. Could be the angle of the picture.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #32 on:** October 20, 2010, 06:34:08 PM »

Two groove barrel... sounds like a Johnson Automatic barrel so this is a WWII rebuild hence various manufactures parts,
as far forward as the firing pin is I am wondering if something hadn't come loose and that long firing pin stabbed the primer before
lockup. is the bullet still in the barrel?

Wish I was close by I would really like to get a look at the rifle, I have seen quite a few failures in years past from trapdoor
Springfield and Winchesters to S&W revolvers, the best one was an Eldrorado Arms 44 mag the fellow was hand loading
and left a bullet in the barrel well the next one split the barrel down the middle as if you cut it with a knife, frame was unhurt
we put a new barrel on it test fired it and sent it on to it's owner......

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #33 on:** October 21, 2010, 02:02:03 AM »

Oooooo Ooooooo Oooooooo -- sucess! Put both socks on by myself!!! [and tied them both too]

Spring tension may be the key - as I said the bolt came apart easily [without tools]. Assembled pin did not extend into the open.

Engagment on cocking piece was definately on one side-ish.

Barrel dated 19-somethingteen.

Double D · « **Reply #34 on:** October 21, 2010, 03:37:18 AM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on October 21, 2010, 02:02:03 AM

Oooooo Ooooooo Oooooooo -- sucess! Put both socks on by myself!!! [and tied them both too]

Spring tension may be the key - as I said the bolt came apart easily [without tools]. Assembled pin did not extend into the open.

Engagment on cocking piece was definately on one side-ish.

Barrel dated 19-somethingteen.

I would expect after the fact things that got gas attack would loose. Get a new bolt assembly and trigger assembly. I think I may have some parts for you. Will check when I get home. Trigger cocking piece etc.

What I could find on internet all say slamfire.

subdjoe · « **Reply #35 on:** October 21, 2010, 05:09:47 AM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on October 21, 2010, 02:02:03 AM

Oooooo Ooooooo Oooooooo -- sucess! Put both socks on by myself!!! [and tied them both too]

Must be on good pain meds - he tied his socks.

Good that you are on the mend. As you say, things could have been much, much worse.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #36 on:** October 21, 2010, 07:57:17 AM »

Quote from: subdjoe on October 21, 2010, 05:09:47 AM

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on October 21, 2010, 02:02:03 AM
Oooooo Ooooooo Oooooooo -- sucess! Put both socks on by myself!!! [and tied them both too]

Must be on good pain meds - he tied his socks.

Good that you are on the mend. As you say, things could have been much, much worse.

Maybe he wears those Vicking socks.... you know with the cords that criss cross over them........

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #37 on:** October 21, 2010, 09:12:55 AM »

Tim, Mike from Seacoast here,
Sorry to here about your kaboom, just thought I'd ask a few questions:
It looks as if the bolt was not turned down at all?
Any stiffness in operating the bolt prior to firing the last offending shot?
How vigorous were you in pushing the bolt forward?
Is the firing pin still attached to the cocking piece?
Did the cocking piece graze your chest after the kaboom or maybe 'at the kaboom'?
Could the firing pin have broken at the rear, near the cocking piece, as you were chambering the round, this would have allow the firing pin to snap forward striking the primer or protrude from the bolt face and able to hit the primer.
The cartridge head was vaporized so no examination of the primer, primer pocket is possible?
Any possibility of a high primer?
Get well soon - Keep on shooting
Thanks
Mike

GGaskill · « **Reply #38 on:** October 21, 2010, 01:03:38 PM »

Hard to believe the case head was "vaporized" if there is no melted brass on the bolt face and/or in the action. It could have been blown off the bolt as the bolt opened and was lost.

I'll have to look more closely at my M1917 tonight but could the cocking piece have slipped off the sear when the bolt was full forward but not rotated?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #39 on:** October 21, 2010, 02:08:37 PM »

George - right on! Vaporized was an emotional not technical term. Took another 20 pieces of brass out of mypalm today.

The answer is in the picture. it will take me 15-20 minutes of typing for the explanation, coming soon.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #40 on:** October 21, 2010, 02:34:36 PM »

The simple answer: improper assembly [and damaged and mixed brand parts].

How it should work: Shroud and cocking piece do not rotate, bolt rotates. Spring goes over firing pin, firing pin is inserted into cocking piece and rotated 90 degrees putting 4 lugs into recesses.

Firing pin was larger at rear end could not be inserted all the way into the cocking piece. It was turned only a FEW degrees wedging (sort of) the two together. It was a catastrophy waiting to happen.

When assembled into the bolt it was a bit long.

The shroud allows the cocking piece and the firing pin to move fore and aft. Note the ‘ding’ it allowed movement, but stopped the cocking piece from falling out.

This was overcome by rapid rearward movement of the bolt following the sudden release of the firing pin at the time when the bolt was pushed forward.

On dis-assembly the firing pin was clearly turned such that the lugs were NOT engaged.

The forward movement of the bolt was controlled and reasonable; having just done 5 rounds individually loaded feeling no unusual resistance.

GGaskill · « **Reply #41 on:** October 21, 2010, 03:14:45 PM »

I am surprised the bolt could have been assembled if the cocking piece was not fully rotated on the firing pin. The flat on the firing pin should orient it in the shroud and if the cocking piece were not mostly rotated, you should not have been able to insert it into the shroud.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #42 on:** October 21, 2010, 03:30:17 PM »

The pin is round on the front so the hole in the bolt must be round. The flat at the back allows it to be inserted into the cocking piece and rotated or not.

Obviously this was put together by unskilled folks. A file could have fixed the burr on the end of the firing pin so it could be inserted all the way. As it was, it could not be hammered togther.

Look to see that the firing pin extends to the end of and is close to flush with the end of the cocking piece.

Double D · « **Reply #43 on:** October 21, 2010, 03:37:02 PM »

I'll buy everything but mis matched parts. The parts in these guns are intended to be interchanged.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #44 on:** October 21, 2010, 03:43:59 PM »

Quote from: Double D on October 21, 2010, 03:37:02 PM

I'll buy everything but mis matched parts. The parts in these guns are intended to be interchanged.

The parts were indeed mismatched by brand. That doesn't mean that they won't or shouldn't fit, it implies directly that they were not original. That's the hint that repairs were made at some time or that on disassembly in service that parts were reassembled from other guns.

Manufacturing processes have sizes, tolerances and clearances. All told things should fit together. BUT over time the designs get modified and one will certainly encounter 'standard' parts that don't fit other 'standard' parts. That is a reality of manufacturing; moreso before WWII as well.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #45 on:** October 21, 2010, 04:20:34 PM »

Quote from: Double D on October 21, 2010, 03:37:02 PM

I'll buy everything but mis matched parts. The parts in these guns are intended to be interchanged.

Parts between manufactures did vary ordnance tolerances were not as closely kept during the war as they would have been in peace time.

Three manufacturers Winchester, Remington & Eddystone

A little history on the M1917's as most of us know the 17 Enfield was an expedient arm adapted from the British P14 in 303,
America short on M1903's stopped production of the contracted P14's and the new rifle became the M1917 at the end of the
war America had more 17's on hand than 1903's there was talk of making the 17 our standard infantry rifle replacing the 03.
Because there were minor variances between the three manufactures the tolerances were not to ordnance standards
the 17 was relegated to a reserve standing. tens of thousands were broken down and the receivers
were boxed up and stored when WWII broke out a program to build new rifles with these receivers was begun, and the reserve stock
were gone through and rebuilt using barrels supplied by Johnson Automatics there may have been one other contractor on barrels.
many of these rebuilds found their way to England and were given to Home Guard units the rest were used in training
and some even found their way to the Nationalist Chinese. Mixed parts in these rebuilds is not uncommon as the guns were broken
down from all three manufacturers the parts would get mixed.

From the sound of it yours was a WWII rebuild, what are the markings on the left side of the stock if any?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #46 on:** October 21, 2010, 04:21:42 PM »

On examing the pix up under the back of the bolt, the firing pin is in the correct rotation. But the size of the firing pin back end is larger than the hole (about 1/4") in the back of the cocking piece. The pin could not have been fully inserted. Further, on separation no lugs were sheared or even had marks from interference fit - could not have been engaged. Hmmmm. Amazing that it held together - except from the force of the 'ding' on the back of the bolt shroud.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #47 on:** October 21, 2010, 04:38:32 PM »

3 GM-K on the left side of stock, 3E behind trigger guard underneith.
Winchester in 133xxx sn range.

It was shooting well; but now back to cannons!!!!

Still can't tell any difference drugs and not (low pain if any); life is GOOD!

KABAR2 · « **Reply #48 on:** October 21, 2010, 05:25:07 PM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on October 21, 2010, 04:38:32 PM

3 GM-K on the left side of stock, 3E behind trigger guard underneith.
Winchester in 133xxx sn range.

CW your 17 is a rebuild I have seen these marks on stocks made during WWII still a good gun, and part of American history.

Victor3 · « **Reply #49 on:** October 21, 2010, 11:54:54 PM »

A look in my copy of Gunsmithing by Dunlap revealed this, concerning modifying the cocking piece to make the 1917 cock on opening...

Note the last sentence in the 1st paragraph here...

Maybe not related to cat's incident, but interesting...

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #50 on:** October 22, 2010, 02:34:21 AM »

Thanks, Since I'll be replacing the key parts I'm looking for a drop in cock-on-opening kit, which was plentiful in the '60's. KNOWING the principles in the article above is also key in saftey (the point of this thread).

This has been an amazing experience learning/expiencing (all over again) the wonderful features of people, their love, their ability to share help and encourage and more. And in the process of investigation explored LOTS of facets of safety and a BUNCH of details of firing pins and more.

Thanks again, one and ALL.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #51 on:** October 22, 2010, 04:04:05 AM »

You mean like this?

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=303560B&catid=11889

Double D · « **Reply #52 on:** October 22, 2010, 05:01:48 AM »

Tim,

I thought I had a extra bolt for a 1917 on phot tab;e turns out its Mauser 98.

Dayton Traister still make the cock on opening kits for the P-1917. http://www.daytraco.com/Departments/Dayton-Traister.aspx

I found a D-T trigger for a P-1917, do you want that?

I'll look for the bolt stuff later this morning.

Here's the last Custom rifle I built.

As soon as we get you and your rifle back together we can get back to cannons.

Double D · « **Reply #53 on:** October 22, 2010, 06:05:53 AM »

Found the cock on opening cocking piece and a bunch of other parts. Will get them in the mail.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #54 on:** October 22, 2010, 06:30:03 AM »

Double D., Maybe you can tell everyone why the 'Cock-on-opening' feature is so popular with most people. Frankly from what I've seen over the years, I bet most average shooters would do much better with a 'Cock-on-closing' action like the British SMLE or the 1917 Enfield (one in good condition with proper parts). I've seen far too many people struggling to get the Mauser action open, especially military surplus Mausers, unpolished and not-so-smooth internal action parts. Unless you get almost violent, you have a pretty hard time functioning the action of a 'Cock-on-opening' Mauser action, whereas the SMLE is easy to eject and load rapidly.

I am a bit familiar with the 1917 Enfield. The last rifle I was working on at the Colorado School of Trades was a .505 Gibbs built on that very strong, 1917 Enfield action. If you should ever find one in full military config., Don't grind the ears off it!! You have a rarity-keep it that way! An excellent battle rifle all the way, and made better by it's 'Cock-on-closing' feature, in my opinion.

Hope you feel better soon, Tim.

Tracy

Double D · « **Reply #55 on:** October 22, 2010, 07:32:32 AM »

You want me to recant my lessons from gunsmith school....I can't.

As I recall the cock on opening systems were consider safer because the striker was captured and held until the bolt was closed. Where the cock on closing relied on the capturing and cocking the striker by the trigger as it was closed. The pre 98 Mausers were known for skipping over the trigger. And Mauser designed the 98 to over come that issue.

It is so much better that most modern bolt guns are made as cock on opening and are almost all Mauser system or some modification or variation on it. A good gunsmith can make a very slick action on this system. The 98 Mauser is my favorite action. It really is hard to improve on it. It's only problem for modern use is that it is expensive to make.

The 1917 trigger is designed so that the safety rotates up and catches in a notch in the cocking piece which blocks forward movement of the striker and pulls the cocking piece back disconnecting the trigger from the cocking piece.

Strange you should mention the SMLE. The SMLE violates the contemporary standards for strength, safety and accuracy and has a long history of strength, safety and accuracy...go figure.

Those action pictures I posted ended up as a .416 Remington MAG. It was the last custom rifle I built.

Double D · « **Reply #56 on:** October 22, 2010, 07:59:50 AM »

Tim,

A bag of parts will go out in the mail to you in the next day or two..

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #57 on:** October 22, 2010, 08:12:42 AM »

Quote from: Double D on October 22, 2010, 07:59:50 AM

Tim,

A bag of parts will go out in the mail to you in the next day or two..

Douglas --

THANKS!!!!! Let me know how I can recompence you. I'll call tonight.

Tim K

Double D · « **Reply #58 on:** October 22, 2010, 08:29:54 AM »

I have not forgot the last time you recompensed me!!!

Nor have a lot of folks in town....

Double D · « **Reply #59 on:** October 22, 2010, 08:35:26 AM »

Quote from: seacoastartillery on October 22, 2010, 06:30:03 AM

...built on that very strong, 1917 Enfield action.
Tracy

A common misconception easily dispelled when you look very closely at the right raceway relief.

A Good discussion on bolt action rifles and their desing can be found inthe books by Stuart Otteson