Author Topic: CNBC investigation of the model 700  (Read 13891 times)

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Offline xhare

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CNBC investigation of the model 700
« on: October 19, 2010, 07:07:15 PM »

Offline S.E.Ak

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2010, 07:23:12 PM »
It was a court that ended the Remington 600 and 660.there were a lot of 22's out there at one time if you pulled the trigger hard with the safety on that would fire once the safety was taken off.I guess if you mess with most any gun long enough the gun grabbers will call it unsafe and take you to court.

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 03:26:51 AM »
A buddy of mine had this happen to him on his 700 not once but three time in a row back in the 70s.
We were deer hunting on my farm and he had climbed up into a tree that morning.
After pulling his Remington 700 in 270 Win caliber up on the rope he began to load it.
After the last cartridge was inserted he closed the bolt and the gun fired.
He thought that he had hit the trigger himself so he chambered another round, making sure his finger was no where near the trigger and again it fired.
He unloaded his gun and lowered it out of the tree.
Once on the ground he reloaded it and once more when the bolt was closed the gun fired.
Back at the house we tried to check it out as to why it had fired and really found nothing wrong except that once the bolt was taken apart there was lots of crud in it.
We cleaned it compleately and put it back together and to this day it has never happened again.
I told him I would never trust a rifle that did that again.
We assumed it was the crud that had caused the problem but now I am not so sure.
I am sure that we will never really know what caused the gun to fire like that.
He still has it and still hunts with it and I am sure that all thoughts of that day are gone from his memory, as he was a young buck back then,  but not mine!!!




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Offline charles p

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2010, 05:58:19 AM »
The Monday Wall Street Journal ran a full page add for the CNBC special tonight.

I've had a lot of bolt rifles, and none have malfunctioned except after I adjusted trigger pulls.  Had it happen twice.  Both were Mod 70 Winchester rifles.  Both would fire when the safety was removed.  I put a Jewell trigger in the last rifle to correct it.  The other Mod 70 now works perfectly at the desired trigger weight.  Both errors were mine, and not the rifle's.

I currently own three Mod 700 Remingtons.  The oldest is about 35 years old.  Never had a problem with them.  Best factory triggers on the market.  I consider them to be very safe firearms.

I expect most any rifle can be adjusted by the user to guarantee a failure.

I once fired a rifle when I inserted my heavy gloved trigger finger into the trigger guard.  Can I sue the glove company for this?  The buck got away too.

Offline Swampman

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2010, 06:07:21 AM »
More old news.  I won't be watching.

"have been the result of poor maintenance, unsafe handling, or improper modification of the trigger by the customer."

Most all of the problems are due to the last item.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Online Graybeard

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2010, 11:48:30 AM »
TOTAL BS. If shade tree gunsmith's didn't screw it up it wouldn't do what folks claim they do. I've owned more than a 100 of them and never had one that would do that. I adjust the trigger pull on my own but adjust that only and never the sear engagement.

It fires because some IDIOT messed with sear engagement when he had no clue what he was doing. There isn't a rifle out there or handgun for that matter that you can't do the same thing to. Remington triggers just make it easy for an idiot to adjust it so do many others really.


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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2010, 12:30:33 PM »
TOTAL BS. If shade tree gunsmith's didn't screw it up it wouldn't do what folks claim they do. I've owned more than a 100 of them and never had one that would do that. I adjust the trigger pull on my own but adjust that only and never the sear engagement.

It fires because some IDIOT messed with sear engagement when he had no clue what he was doing. There isn't a rifle out there or handgun for that matter that you can't do the same thing to. Remington triggers just make it easy for an idiot to adjust it so do many others really.

  Plus 1

  I can make any one of my 700's do it, i can also make every one of my 700's NOT do it.

  DM

Offline scootrd

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2010, 01:07:32 PM »
I had a cup of coffee go off on me a while back , At first I thought it was my fault , because I was trying to adjust the lid , But then I heard I could sue whether it was my fault or not .. so hey I'm going after the cup manufacturer for allowing me to be able to remove the lid while driving in heavy traffic ------- cause as you all know people should never take responsibility for their own stupidity when we can blame others and cash in ......Gimme a break.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2010, 01:29:26 PM »
I will not be watching.
Not because of the topic because of the station.
Nothing from CNBC is news.
CNBC is the TV channel of the Far left wing of the Democrat party.
Remember Progressive = Comminist in the new lexicon of the left.
Other than that any mechanical devise can have a malfunction.
Cars break, busses break, trains and planes break but we are not condeming the whole transprotation industry  or a single maker for normal wear and tear or for isolated mechanical break downs.
Beside that I read once some one said the safest way to carry a gun is to pull the trigger and slowly close the bolt.
Thought it was going to set off he gun.  Tried it and did not get my 700 V to go off.  It has a rebounding fining pin.
I wonder if a high primer  or two may be the culpret.
Heck 2.5% of all items made have a problem is Remington 700 is 40% of the market they may just have the most failed stuff by shear numbers.  2.5% of a Million is a lot, 25,000.  Now multiply that y how many millions of M700's are out there and wow big numer but it still is not addressing that 97.5% are perfect.

Offline scootrd

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2010, 01:33:49 PM »

Heck 2.5% of all items made have a problem is Remington 700 is 40% of the market they may just have the most failed stuff by shear numbers.  2.5% of a Million is a lot, 25,000.  Now multiply that y how many millions of M700's are out there and wow big numer but it still is not addressing that 97.5% are perfect.

Exactly. Mountains out of molehills
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Offline Swampman

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Offline 30-30man

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2010, 04:45:09 PM »
I just watched the show and it basically proved what we've known all along.  Remington could have fixed this whole thing for .05 a rifle....FIVE CENTS....Instead they kept making them the same old way, now they have a conspiracy because of the bean counters.  I will admit it's probably people messing with triggers, but still this whole mess could have been avoided. Why do they have to be so cheap and turn out stuff that's not right. They would rather turn out crap that spend a little money and fix it.   Remington needs better management now before they go under!

Offline Swampman

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2010, 05:04:20 PM »
It all about money.  If you ever admit there's a problem you'll be sued out of existance.  A fix is an admission.  Kawasaki has a part on the KLR650 that can shatter and ruin the engine.  The fix is cheap.  The recall of all KLRs would kill them.
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Offline 1marty

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2010, 05:07:12 PM »
NBC is over the top when it comes to a total gun ban. Their objective is not the safety of the firearms owner but more "justification" for banning firearms. This is an old story but it seems NBC will keep "firing" until all guns are banned.

Offline charles p

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2010, 05:36:00 PM »
Nothing was mentioned in the entire show about adjustments to the triggers made by owners.  Not one person came to Remington's defense.  Theirs is not the only trigger that will fire if improperly adjusted.

Offline peepingtom

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2010, 05:39:59 PM »
I bought a new Remington model 660 .243 after they came out years ago. Great little rifle for deer. After hunting one day I was unloading it working the shells thru the action slowly and the rifle fired. Scared the crap out of me! I thought "how could I be so dumb as to trigger this thing while working the bolt?" I very carefully worked the bolt again and the gun fired again.

     I took it to a gunsmith the next morning and he said "Oh yeah, Remington is having trouble with these triggers. They will replace it free of charge. Leave it here and I'll take care of it". A couple of weeks later the gun was back, with no charges for anything. The new trigger had an estimated trigger pull of at least 8 pounds. I asked the gunsmith if he would reduce the pull down to at least 5 pounds and he refused for liability reasons. He said he expected lawsuits to be filed about those triggers and he would only handle shipment of the rifle.

     This rifle was about 3 years old and I had it in the field maybe 15 hunting days. I fired a total of a box and a half of Remington factory ammo, most of it at the range. I cleaned it at the end of each season. I never did any trigger modifications at all .

      I never fired the rifle with the new trigger. I sold it to a co-worker after I gave him the full story. He never had any problems with it.

      I never bought another Remington rifle, but do own a couple of 870's and a 11- 87.

    

Offline scootrd

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2010, 06:05:06 PM »
I actually just finished watching (I caught the late show). I did find it interesting The military commented it's so common on the range they call it a Remington moment. and the military and police sniper squads actually showed video documentation where you actually see it happen was compelling. Man he Barely touched that bolt with his fingers when it discharged , that would have scared the heck outta me if it had happened to me unknowingly.
It was pretty cool seeing the interview with Mr. Walker designer of the 700. 97 years old and still goin strong ... God bless 'em.

With response to 5cents -  it was a 5cent fix back then , now it would be an estimated 100.00 fix I believe is what they reported.

Still love my Remington. But is was an interesting report.
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Offline manatee1947

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2010, 06:59:24 PM »
I have owned many, still own some, have no problem with them, I did have a 660 in 6mm go off when the safety was pushed off, but we also had adjusted the trigger down to 2 pounds or less. We cranked it back up a little and it was OK. We could all just set on the floor in our homes and eat vegetables all day long and be much safer, we would live longer maybe. For what ???
remember the starfish

Offline nomosendero

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2010, 07:17:49 PM »
NBC is over the top when it comes to a total gun ban. Their objective is not the safety of the firearms owner but more "justification" for banning firearms. This is an old story but it seems NBC will keep "firing" until all guns are banned.

That was the REAL goal.
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Offline bubbinator

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MSNBC/CNBC Rem 700 Trigger expose'
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2010, 07:44:37 PM »
The above referenced  network aired a show claiming a long time investigation into Rem 700 trigger issues.  They showed some!, Had the engineer who designed it in the 40s (now 98 and still shooting) who told them it was unsafe and was ignored 7/8 times and the dad of a young boy killed by it. I have multiple Rem 700s and would normally not get fired up about this but my Rem 700 Classic .221 Fireball would drop the hammer on bolt close, drop the hammer on safety off!  I called my agency Gunsmith and we talked about Rems "Non-tamper" issues and screw-adjustment deterents involving "laquer-like preventatives. I aggressively flushed the trigger group, re-lightly lubed and wa OK for that shooting session.  A later session several months later, same issue.
All this is negated by Rem with Gun Safety and Gum Maintanience.  (FYI- I am a shooter/reloader/2X Retired LEO/Gunsmith Grad/ State/LEO FBI Firearms Instuctor since 1970).  The story said 1 in 5 may be suspect.  All that said-who can trust MSNBC/CNBC? I posted this for you to do your homework.  I don't trust them. but- if one  is saved, I'll bite that bullet.

Offline 1marty

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2010, 01:49:42 AM »
There's little said about guys who adjust the remington "creppy" trigger and then find the rifle "firing" wihout pulling the trigger. The military does fiddle with triggers. Here's a website which tells you just to turn a bunch of  screws and you'll have a better trigger.
http://www.theoutdoorwriter.com/shooting/r700_trigger_2.htm

Offline 243dave

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2010, 05:56:14 AM »
If you haven't watched the program you ought too.  My heart goes out to family who lost their son.  But I'd bet money the father adjusted the trigger on that rifle, he was a reloader, hunter and a avid shooter.  Don't all of us who fall in this catagory adjust our triggers ??  I know I do but I go thru great pains making sure the rifle won't misfire, I like to think I do it properly.  Remington is aware that many people adjust their triggers, maybe they should have changed them years ago to make them safer.  They make rifles for the military, target shooters and police departments and they know those triggers are going to be adjusted before they make it to the range to be sighted in.  In my eyes what gave the program creditability was the interview with Mike Walker, the designer of the trigger and modern 700 series, he suggested changes to the trigger back in the late 40's when the 721 came out and even after he retired from Remington.  Back then it would have been a 5.5 cent fix.  Mr. Walker Knows more about the 700 series rifles than anyone here so maybe we should take the program CNBC aired seriously.  I know I'm never gonna get rid of my model 700's made in the 1970's and I love the trigger pull on them but I am not ignorant to the possibilty that there is problems.  If you make a adjustable trigger you need to make it where it can be adjusted and still be safe.  I hate to say it but Savage has done a good job with this with the accutrigger.  No safety is 100% but perhaps Remington should have made improvements years ago.  Dave

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2010, 06:28:43 AM »
If there is a problem it should be fixed . If it is not Remington should be cleared.
I will tell a story that happened on the job 20+ years ago . I was going thru. a finial inspection before truning over a school. This is when any defect is notes as all systems are operated and checked. The arch. Rep and I had never gotten along so he was looking to find something to hold up the inspection. Well the cooling tower had just been painted and I was waiting for it to dry before putting the tag on that read COOLING TOWER . Well thig guy points to it and says this equipment isn't finished no tag. Well this old guy that worked with me speaks up and say why does it need a tag ? the rep says so if someone is working on it they will know what it is. My old friend spits out some tobacco juice in the floor drain close to the reps feet and says " if they don't know what it is they shouldn't be screwing with it " Same goes for triggers
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2010, 07:21:45 AM »
Nothing was mentioned in the entire show about adjustments to the triggers made by owners.  Not one person came to Remington's defense.  Theirs is not the only trigger that will fire if improperly adjusted.
You assume no one came to their defence.
This was a hatchet job.
If you have a political goal you are not going to give both sides of the story.
If you think this was a news show you are mistaken.  it was a show attack a corperation for making a product in the US.
If they found it was 100% of all mis fires were owners screwing around with the triggers they would have gone after them asking why they are not making the trigges un adjustable for $0.05 a rifle more.
And on that note when they say .05 a rifle do they mean to make new ones or is that over the entire run of the product?  My guess is over the run of the product so that is $50,000 a Million rifles made.  Not to mention the shipping back and forth, and the labor to install any fix.  Also having worked for a Manufacturer that .05 of cost equals about .10 is cost added to the rifle then add to that the taxes that are on a rifle and you are looking at adding $2 to the cost of each rifle.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2010, 07:25:30 AM »
I think Remington should make them unadjustable, then when the owners want an adjustment, make it for them and make them sign a waiver.  Seems it is in the safety not the trigger.  I never liked Remingtons for the very reason.  I like a three position safety, whether a model 70 or a Ruger. 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: MSNBC/CNBC Rem 700 Trigger expose'
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2010, 07:30:46 AM »
The above referenced  network aired a show claiming a long time investigation into Rem 700 trigger issues.  They showed some!, Had the engineer who designed it in the 40s (now 98 and still shooting) who told them it was unsafe and was ignored 7/8 times and the dad of a young boy killed by it. I have multiple Rem 700s and would normally not get fired up about this but my Rem 700 Classic .221 Fireball would drop the hammer on bolt close, drop the hammer on safety off!  I called my agency Gunsmith and we talked about Rems "Non-tamper" issues and screw-adjustment deterents involving "laquer-like preventatives. I aggressively flushed the trigger group, re-lightly lubed and wa OK for that shooting session.  A later session several months later, same issue.
All this is negated by Rem with Gun Safety and Gum Maintanience.  (FYI- I am a shooter/reloader/2X Retired LEO/Gunsmith Grad/ State/LEO FBI Firearms Instuctor since 1970).  The story said 1 in 5 may be suspect.  All that said-who can trust MSNBC/CNBC? I posted this for you to do your homework.  I don't trust them. but- if one  is saved, I'll bite that bullet.
These are the same people that have added any Police shooting as a Murder with a firearm in the statistics.
If your .221 has a problem trigger get it fixed.  Send it back to Rem to get it fixed, or buy an after market trigger to fix the problem.  Don't think of your self as a victom of some evil corperation.

Offline scootrd

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2010, 07:49:42 AM »
Nothing was mentioned in the entire show about adjustments to the triggers made by owners.  Not one person came to Remington's defense.  Theirs is not the only trigger that will fire if improperly adjusted.
You assume no one came to their defense.
This was a hatchet job.
If you have a political goal you are not going to give both sides of the story.
If you think this was a news show you are mistaken.  it was a show attack a corporation for making a product in the US.
If they found it was 100% of all mis fires were owners screwing around with the triggers they would have gone after them asking why they are not making the triggers un adjustable for $0.05 a rifle more.
And on that note when they say .05 a rifle do they mean to make new ones or is that over the entire run of the product?  My guess is over the run of the product so that is $50,000 a Million rifles made.  Not to mention the shipping back and forth, and the labor to install any fix.  Also having worked for a Manufacturer that .05 of cost equals about .10 is cost added to the rifle then add to that the taxes that are on a rifle and you are looking at adding $2 to the cost of each rifle.

I know nothing more than what I saw on the show. But Mr. Walker claimed they found the design problem early on and submitted numerous notes , requests to management for design change when the rifle was still in the testing stage Mr Walker wrote a memo warning of a “theoretical unsafe condition involving the gun’s safety mechanism that is supposed to keep the rifle from firing accidentally. Four months later a memo entitled Pilot Line Inspection a test engineer wrote, it was possible to fire the rifle by pushing the safety to the off position. Mr Walker stated they could create the issue right at time of MFG line assembly prior to ship so that rules out individuals fiddling with triggers for some instances.

Mr Walker apparently also followed up with numerous requests after he retired for design change. Other individuals that have had this occur claim they never fiddled with the triggers.

Apparently in one lawsuit while Remington expert was on the witness stand to state how safe the rifle was in demonstrating ...The 700 when off when switching the safety .

A Remington 700 also malfunctioned during a Consumer Reports evaluation in 1968, firing when the safety was released.

Internal Remington memos also indicate they knew the problem and could recreate it (something called the screwdriver test) on those that were reported and returned to factory to be worked dissected on why it occurred). Additionally Remington offered a program for 20.00 you could send your in and they replace the safety with a different versions I believe is what was said.  

I cant remember the whole thing so if I got a point  wrong those who watched the show feel free to jump in and correct.    

Thought it was good they got the creators perspective regarding the issue. He was kinda funny cause he said you all know your gonna get me in a lot of trouble with Remington. Course at his age he gets to call 'em as he see's 'em .. I believe hes earned that right.

Still love my Remington , never trade.
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Offline 243dave

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2010, 08:45:17 AM »
If people are going to respond to this thread they need to watch the program.  I did.  I'm like most of you guys and have had good luck with Remington rifles and will never get rid of the ones I now own.  But when the designer of the firearm in question wants to improve his own trigger/safety design because of safety concerns, it might indicate a problem does indeed exist and Remington has known about it since the model 721 from 1948.  The designer Mike Walker knows more about the 700 series rifles than anyone alive.  If he said there is a problem I'll take his word for it.  This isn't a political thread, it should be a thread about safety concerns and perhaps where some blame lies in order to save a little money.  Dave

Offline Gunning4Me

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2010, 08:51:17 AM »
As we all know there is always two sides to every story. Remington has put their side up at the below website. They throw out some interesting facts.

http://www.remington700.tv

Offline scootrd

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2010, 09:15:05 AM »
As we all know there is always two sides to every story. Remington has put their side up at the below website. They throw out some interesting facts.

http://www.remington700.tv

I look forward to the site they are developing that will repudiate CNBC . However there wasn't much substance in the interview. What I did see was a CEO doing his proper job in deflecting  the conversation more towards gun industry as a whole.  I admit a few points were raised hopefully the website will provide more detail, but again the interview was very high level and the interviewer had not even seen the program so did not know the more in depth questions to ask or expand upon.

What I heard was

Rifles may have been dirty, fingers may have been on trigger, The police department did not tell us about it.
CNBC did not show context of all documents. Also , I don't think Maine police integrity should even be questioned.
wrong path to go down there. it's on film , it was recorded and it happened.  

Now to argue the flip side  -  just admit the issue, offer fix (xmarkpro) , and get people to understand a safety is just a mechanical device like any other mechanical devise may fail from time to time. So be smart,  and use caution.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant