CNBC investigation of the model 700

[Swampman]

NBC is over the top when it comes to a total gun ban. Their objective is not the safety of the firearms owner but more "justification" for banning firearms. This is an old story but it seems NBC will keep "firing" until all guns are banned.

That was the REAL goal.

Yep!

[Doug B.]

NBC is over the top when it comes to a total gun ban. Their objective is not the safety of the firearms owner but more "justification" for banning firearms. This is an old story but it seems NBC will keep "firing" until all guns are banned.

That was the REAL goal.

Yep!

Undoubtedly everybody is right with their indication of political views regarding the media. I worked in the media for many years and I know how, when they put their minds to it, they can and unfortunately do, sway the viewing audience any way they want.  But......is there some credence to Mr. Walker's knowledge of a problem as far back as 1948? I pretty firmly believe so. At the age of 98 why would he not tell the truth? I firmly believe there is a known safety concern by a gentleman that knows the model 700 action/trigger/safety assemblies far better than myself, and undoubtedly better than the greater majority of this boards members! Personally, I will not let politics reflect on my take of this "perceived" problem. I do indeed believe there is a genuine concern, and well there should be. 

$.04 worth there.   

[Swampman]

The the liberal media won.

[Siskiyou]

Sometimes events happen that need to be discussed but they are not.  My Dad was a drill sergeant when it came to firearms safety.  A key to a failure without injury was muzzle control.  Failure to control the muzzle can lead to injury or death if other systems fail. 

We were on a late hunt, Dad and his three teenage sons.  The plan was to stay on rocky points and when legal shooting past for us to use flashlights to hike out.  It has been many years but I believe the youngest was setting with Dad, and the middle and I out from them.  Knowing that Dad would wave us in to start out soon I kind of kept an eye his direction. 

We always unloaded our rifles before hiking out in the dark so I was waiting for him to unload.  There was a muzzle flash in the sky and the report of the rifle.  Nobody was hurt because of good muzzle control.

Unfortunately we lost a very good opportunity to learn more from this event.  I believe Dad was shocked, and embarrassed as I would have been.  All he would say about it was, he was unloading and the rifle went off.

It would have been better to catch his actions early while fresh. 

The rifle was a Remington 722 the parent to today’s Remington 700 Short action.  To open the action the user pushes the safety forward and lifts the bolt.  I do not know what had happen before this. 

Had Dad pressed on the trigger earlier “setting the trigger”?  Did he have his finger in the trigger guard when he released the safety?

I know in the following days Dad spent a lot of time checking the rifle and safety.

Had he adjusted the trigger at sometime?  I think not but I do not know the answer. 

I have owned the rifle for over thirty years.  I have open closed the action on an empty chamber, set the safety, and released the safety and the firing pin has not released.  I have repeated the action but after setting the safety pressing the trigger, and then releasing the safety and the firing pin has not released.  Dad may have taken the rifle to a local gunsmith to be checked out.  Dad spent a far amount of time there.

Was the discharge cause by a tired man?  Dad normally was up at 0400, make his breakfast and lunch and go to work at the factory.  It was a small operation and he would push hard to get done in time to take us boys out for an evening hunt.  Was he tired released the safety and had his finger in the trigger guard.  I do not know.

Middle brother has been very critical of the incident.  He and dad did not have a rosy relationship.  He says dad had been fidgeting with the rifle while setting on the rock.  I believe him.

But middle brother got a wakeup call.  He now has a number of rifles built on short and long action Remington 700 actions.  One day on the phone he tells me that he has been working on the trigger of Remington 700 BDL which he has purchased used as a project gun. 

It gets scary because he asks me for advice on adjusting the trigger.  Elder Brother Syndrome (EBS) surfaces and I advise him to use caution because there are already concerns regarding the trigger, and backyard mechanics work on it.  I tell him to make sure it is safe by testing before chambering a live round in it.

A couple days later I get a phone call saying that he had an accidental discharge with the “tampered” rifle.  He was target shooting, chambered a round, and set the safety.  When he laid the rifle down it discharged.  Nobody was hurt because the muzzle was point away from people. 

Clearly his adjustment and testing was faulty.  The accidental discharge is at his doorstep, not Remington’s

I remember a family making a lot of noise about unsafe Remington Rifles when one discharged.  The loaded rifle was on the seat of a vehicle.  Note that it is illegal to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle in most states.  The victim grabbed the firearm by the muzzle and pulled in across the seat towards her causing it to discharge into her body.  It was unknown if the safety was on and released because of the friction with the seat.  Of course the family was blaming and suing Remington.

I have not watched the show, but I do have concerns.  I will watch it at a later date.

I do have a Remington 700 with a heavy trigger pull.  I would like a lighter trigger, but have not touched the trigger.

The wife is going to get tired me bouncing the butt of a Remington on the floor for a while.

[30-30man]

Well I don't know why people say this was a one sided story.  Remington refused to comment as they knew they were busted. Their quality control has been bad for years and the story just confirmed it. They have been putting out stuff just to make money...They have always put profit over quality.....Ex:740,742,7400,Viper,597..I don't hate Remington, I just hate the management that they have been cursed with so many years..The story just confirmed why I will never buy another Remington....I hope this kind of quality control doesn't spill over to Marlin.  Why did they ever sell out to Remington?

[mechanic]

Any firearm can have a defect.  That does'nt mean all do.  Any firearm can lack maintenance.  Any firearm can be tampered with.  As one poster above put it, if the muzzle is not pointed at something you don't want shot, you won't have a problem

We were taught to treat all guns as if loaded, and as if they might fire without notice.

Most safety trainings tell you to carry your gun with the muzzle down.  I carry mine pointed at the sky.  If I trip, I use the stock to break my fall.  If the gun misfires, unless there is a very low flying plane, it is just an embarrassment...

[scootrd]

Any firearm can have a defect.  That does'nt mean all do.  Any firearm can lack maintenance.  Any firearm can be tampered with.  As one poster above put it, if the muzzle is not pointed at something you don't want shot, you won't have a problem

We were taught to treat all guns as if loaded, and as if they might fire without notice.

Most safety trainings tell you to carry your gun with the muzzle down.  I carry mine pointed at the sky.  If I trip, I use the stock to break my fall.  If the gun misfires, unless there is a very low flying plane, it is just an embarrassment...

I agree, What was unfortunate here , Was the mom appeared to be practicing muzzle control , however if I remember correctly her young son slipped off a horse in the adjacent corral and ran behind  a trailer unseen by both parents. Sometimes tragic things in life just happen. Only she knows if the trigger was touched, only they know if it was adjusted at some time .  but whatever the details just a sad tragidy.
I believe Remington settled.

I guess my position is , It does appear there is evidence of an issue with the walker trigger (right from the desigers own words). However It wont stop me from buying an older Remington. I just now have a more heightened awareness. I really didn't see the show as an attack on the rifle industry as a whole, It seemed pretty balanced and they kept their focus on the 700.

I did feel listening to Remington's rebuttal they wanted to try and shift the focus  - as it was an attack on the whole industry. deflecting the conversation in that direction allowed him not to address specific 700 questions. I was also disappointed the interviewer was ill prepared. (didn't even watch the show prior to the interview)

As a kid when I went through hunter safety  the instructor told me a safety is a mechanical device that can , may,  or at some time will fail , so don't put all your faith in a rifles safety. Practice Gun Safety etc..etc..

I still love my Remington.

[Swampman]

The bullet hit the van.  That's not proper muzzle control.

[SHOOTALL]

The bullet hit the van.  That's not proper muzzle control.

plain and simple .

[scootrd]

The bullet hit the van.  That's not proper muzzle control.

plain and simple .

So noted , so corrected.

I believe what I was trying to say was it was not pointed in the direction of anyone that she was aware of.  Unfortunately not the case.

[TheCoachZed]

Had a shotgun go off on me once, without my finger on the trigger. Safety was off, as I had just shot it (I was loading a fresh shell into the tube). It never happened again, and I assumed the trigger got caught on my shell belt.

Scary stuff. Luckily I had the muzzle in a safe direction.

[mcwoodduck]

Had a shotgun go off on me once, without my finger on the trigger. Safety was off, as I had just shot it (I was loading a fresh shell into the tube). It never happened again, and I assumed the trigger got caught on my shell belt.

Scary stuff. Luckily I had the muzzle in a safe direction.

I did too except it was a gun malfunction.  An old Remington model 10 that came loose and when you closed the gun it went off.
Took it to my favorite shotgun smith and he fixed it.  no big deal.

[1marty]

You should take a look at the Remington website. A gun "expert" who admitted in sworne testmony that he tried and tried to get the 700 to discharge without pulling the trigger and couldn't. An "employee" who said Remington covered up but subsequently admitted he only worked at the ammunition plant not the firearm plant. Last but not least the NBC reporter standing in a field talking about the 700 with the bolt closed and his finger on the trigger. As I said in a prior posting NBC always had an agenda to see the complete ban of firearms.

[scootrd]

You should take a look at the Remington website. A gun "expert" who admitted in sworne testmony that he tried and tried to get the 700 to discharge without pulling the trigger and couldn't. An "employee" who said Remington covered up but subsequently admitted he only worked at the ammunition plant not the firearm plant. Last but not least the NBC reporter standing in a field talking about the 700 with the bolt closed and his finger on the trigger. As I said in a prior posting NBC always had an agenda to see the complete ban of firearms.

Marty , your brushing over the "Gun Expert " hired to defend in a law suit where right on the witness stand trying to demonstrate how it was not possible  -  well the impossible happened and it did .  Needless to say Remington settled.

I still don't get it ... there's an issue , so what , Remington should just admit it , and if it happens to ours, we  get it fixed.

[Swampman]

Remingtion settled because that was cheaper.  Remington did "fix" this non-issue with a new trigger to make the rifle more idiot proof.

They do what their lawyers think is best......cheapest.

A parent killed their child.....muzzle control.

Inanimate objects don't kill people.

[1marty]

company's carry product liability coverage. Therefore, any settlement is up to the insurance company not the insured. NBc always had an agenda and all I'm saying just because they say it doesn't make it an abolute truth.

[jmayton]

Inanimate objects don't kill people.

Randomly falling trees sometimes kill people.

[30-30man]

I just hope Remington will change their bean counting policies. I would much rather pay a little more for a rifle that functions instead of the crap they put off on us.  I've seen my share of crappy rifles from Remington that should have never left the factory.

[bubbinator]

After reading all the great posts above I need to add this to my initial post #19.  My 700 Classic was bought NIB, fired less than 6 times to zero the scope and put in the safe.  A month or 2 later it was used to dispatch a feral dog>to safe.  It stayed there over 6 months.  I was doing a routine semi-annual cleaning when I noticed the problem.  First the firing pin would follow the bolt down repeatedly.  Then when doing the safety check (rifle cocked-when it finally did-I pushed off the safey and the hammer dropped.  This was brand new rifle, and while I am graduate of a Gunsmith School, I harbor no delusions that I want to go fooling with rifle triggers I have 0 experience with.  I own several 700s but never felt they needed to be adjusted, so I left them alone.  What my good friend and Agency Gunsmith told me was "flush the trigger group very well with Gun Scrubber/Brake Cleaner to get all the factory induced "30 wt oil" out of it then relube it with a light oil like RemOil or a similar product".  This done,  the trigger is now much crisper and I have since had zero issues, even when trying to induce them, the safety works, the trigger is better and I can't even make the firing pin drop my bumping the "off-safe" rifle on the floor.  And I always know where that muzzle is looking! 

[skarke]

As much as I totally hate to admit it, my 700 BDL, virtually new, started firing upon safety release.  No, there were no trigger adjustments.  I love the 700 precisely because of its trigger design.  But, when this happened, I researched it, and folks, it's an issue.  I decided that the most prudent thing to do with my remington rifles was to replace the triggers with aftermarket products.  I have a Timney in the offending rifle, and I have had no more problems.  For me, it was one of three.  That is a pretty high failure rate in my opinion.

[84Jim]

Here's an email I received this morning from a shooting buddy:

If you haven't watched it, you'll probably hear about the hour long CNBC program attacking both the Remington Model 700 rifle and Corporate America. Considering the source the story is pretty much what you'd expect from the left wing media with an anti-gun agenda. The long and the short of it was CNBC's allegation Model 700s have a defective trigger that allows the gun to fire without pulling the trigger. They cited fatalities and showed some rifles going off just by handling the bolts or safeties. O f course nobody asked whether the rifles were modified by an incompetent fool or questioned the careless gun handling that resulted in accidents.

Nearly everything on the show was a misrepresentation of facts to achieve a their desired goal. As gun owners living in the real world we know that there's another side to the story, and that the network ignored that point of view. Fortunately for those interested in the truth, Remington has put together a website the refutes point by point the allegations. Here it is: http://www.remington700.tv/#/home There's a small screen on the right center of the website. Click the View button on that screen to see short videos that debunk each CNBC fabrication. I clicked on about a dozen of these and there are many that I haven't seen yet. The TV show provided a target-rich environment for Remington link posted above. You owe it to yourself to take an hour or so to hear the other side of the story. The saddest part in all this is how low the standards are for American journalism and how deeply divided the country is today. Voting has never been more important than it will be this November

As for me, the day after the show I went to the Grice Gun Shop with my buddy and bought a rifle in celebration of our Second Amendment rights. You can see my new .Remington Model 700CDL (.243 Win) at the East Monongahela Deer Shoot October 31st.

See you on the range,

[scootrd]

Here's an email I received this morning from a shooting buddy:

If you haven't watched it, you'll probably hear about the hour long CNBC program attacking both the Remington Model 700 rifle and Corporate America. Considering the source the story is pretty much what you'd expect from the left wing media with an anti-gun agenda. The long and the short of it was CNBC's allegation Model 700s have a defective trigger that allows the gun to fire without pulling the trigger. They cited fatalities and showed some rifles going off just by handling the bolts or safeties. O f course nobody asked whether the rifles were modified by an incompetent fool or questioned the careless gun handling that resulted in accidents.

Nearly everything on the show was a misrepresentation of facts to achieve a their desired goal. As gun owners living in the real world we know that there's another side to the story, and that the network ignored that point of view. Fortunately for those interested in the truth, Remington has put together a website the refutes point by point the allegations. Here it is: http://www.remington700.tv/#/home There's a small screen on the right center of the website. Click the View button on that screen to see short videos that debunk each CNBC fabrication. I clicked on about a dozen of these and there are many that I haven't seen yet. The TV show provided a target-rich environment for Remington link posted above. You owe it to yourself to take an hour or so to hear the other side of the story. The saddest part in all this is how low the standards are for American journalism and how deeply divided the country is today. Voting has never been more important than it will be this November

As for me, the day after the show I went to the Grice Gun Shop with my buddy and bought a rifle in celebration of our Second Amendment rights. You can see my new .Remington Model 700CDL (.243 Win) at the East Monongahela Deer Shoot October 31st.

See you on the range,

If you haven't watched the show ... don't bother commenting.
Even the designer of the 700 stated there was an issue. The issues were happening in the factory
during QA testing even prior to MKT ship.

The show was actually pretty balanced , it wasn't a hatchet Job on the Gun industry ,
it was a report specifically to the 700.

I suggest you watch ...then comment.

And Yes,  I still love my Remington.

[GypsmJim]

Most likely CNBC is on a witch hunt for gun companies. That's what the liberal media does. Remington just got in the crosshairs because of aledged problems.

Based on all of the facts to date, it looks like Remington has had a lot of problems with the 700 and failed to adress them because of corporate greed. Now, naturally they aren't going to fess up to anything.

The real truth is probably somewhere between the CNBC and Remington stories.

All I know is that in the past 15 years I have had 6 problems with Remington products. In each case their customer service responded OK and supplied replacement products. The very last time I refused a replacement and demanded my money back, which I got, but only after a lot of hassle.

I don't need hassle. I don't need to have to do things over. I resolved about 5 years ago that I would never again use a product labeled Remington, even if I got it for free. I worked for a company that knowingly shipped crap, but then bent over backwards to replace it to those that caught them in the act. I believe that was Remington's philosopy as well.

I don't know what the truth is about the 700, but you would never have found me shooting one even before the CNBC story. But now, I'll go one step further - nobody alowed to come on my property with one either!

[Squib]

As we all know there is always two sides to every story. Remington has put their side up at the below website. They throw out some interesting facts.

http://www.remington700.tv

I look forward to the site they are developing that will repudiate CNBC . However there wasn't much substance in the interview. What I did see was a CEO doing his proper job in deflecting  the conversation more towards gun industry as a whole.  I admit a few points were raised hopefully the website will provide more detail, but again the interview was very high level and the interviewer had not even seen the program so did not know the more in depth questions to ask or expand upon.

What I heard was

Rifles may have been dirty, fingers may have been on trigger, The police department did not tell us about it.
CNBC did not show context of all documents. Also , I don't think Maine police integrity should even be questioned.
wrong path to go down there. it's on film , it was recorded and it happened.  

Now to argue the flip side  -  just admit the issue, offer fix (xmarkpro) , and get people to understand a safety is just a mechanical device like any other mechanical devise may fail from time to time. So be smart,  and use caution.

how do we know the department armorer wasn't an idiot that couldn't do good trigger jobs?  maybe he did a crappy job on all the department remingtons.  

[smokepole06]

So what next? I have have a several 700s from early 90s and have some from 2000s, one bought last year still never fired in varmit. 2 have j lock. Never had problem yet. I keep them clean and lubed. Should I upgrade to X Mark to curtail any issues down the road with sear wear. I assume the forementioned screwdriver test would pry up on the back of a closed bolt to check for play that would release sear? Been using them 20 plus years along with a Seven, no problems yet. I do remember a recall a few years back for guns made in either the 80s or before. I thought that was about having to go to fire to open bolt. You know that is why the Browning x bolt differs from the a bolt.

[smokepole06]

OK, well more questions. Do you believe this?:
http://www.drinnonlaw.com/Texas-Defe...mington700.php

I have always heard that there is a little truth in every rumor. I keep seeing bad reviews of the Walker design. Like I said no problems yet. As the X Pro goes, there are 2 versions right? Is one safer than the other, lets say that you leave at preset values just for hunting. I assume a Jewell or Timney would not be a Walker design and be better? Still, I see NBC as doing a witch hunt because of their anti-gun agenda, but I try to look at the facts. So how many GBO folks out there has had issues?

[goofyoldfart]

to ScootRD: I haven't watched the show yet, but will. What bothers me is your attitude about "Don't comment" *. Sorry buddy, that don't wash!!! I have had 3 AD's (accidental discharges) in 55 years--And ALL were MY fault. Not proud of that fact but shiete happens. the thing that kept ANY of them from being a tragedy was the BASICS OF SAFE HANDLING as to where the weapon was pointed. I will admit that one was under pressure of an attack during combat--same still applied as to watching where the muzzle was pointed. I plead "fear" in that case. End of rant. God Bless to all.

* trying to control others lives, are we. you a Democrat?

[scootrd]

to ScootRD: I haven't watched the show yet, but will. What bothers me is your attitude about "Don't comment" *. Sorry buddy, that don't wash!!! I have had 3 AD's (accidental discharges) in 55 years--And ALL were MY fault. Not proud of that fact but shiete happens. the thing that kept ANY of them from being a tragedy was the BASICS OF SAFE HANDLING as to where the weapon was pointed. I will admit that one was under pressure of an attack during combat--same still applied as to watching where the muzzle was pointed. I plead "fear" in that case. End of rant. God Bless to all.

* trying to control others lives, are we. you a Democrat?

Your right as rain , I owe you an apology. That was a little terse on my part. I did however watch the show (I really didn't see it as a hatchet Job..) and I viewed the rebuttal (if one could call it that (not a lot of substance). And I was trying to synthesize mere speculations from true facts.  No excuse just where my mind was when I was commenting.

Again please accept my apology for my unwarranted remark.

[SHOOTALL]

What trigger was used in an XP-100 ? That has to be the most abused and adjusted trigger around. To shoot in competition you had to have it checked and gun marked IHMSA rule. We would remove the safety ( in many cases it fell out first ). We also removed the bolt stop and installed one in the pre drilled holes where a peep sight was to go. We would pre load the fireing pin by pressing on it where it is exposed at the rear of the bolt.
 That said if out of adjustment a slight knock could set it off. You know like working the bolt or safety.
Point is any rifle can fail , the more it is used and abused the more it needs to be checked.
How many have heard someone say I have been hunting with that gun for 40 years and never even cleaned it ? How many have aquired a used gun only to clean it and find an almost new looking gun but one that was seldom used but oiled every week. You need to check your weapon !

[Zeak]

I own a 700ML and was at the gun range zeroing in the rifle and it went off 3 times when I took the safety off. Got a scrare on the thumb where the saftey bit my thumb. The trigger had never been adjusted. I clean my guns thoughly so couldn't blame it on being dirty. I took the rifle apart and a little part of the saftey had broken. My 700ADL in a 270 also done it once in 0 degree weather, it was also clean and not over oiled. It also didn't have a trigger ajustment. They now are replaced with Timneys. I just went down to my gun room to find the triggers, couldn't find them, must have thrown them away. Wished I wouldn't have done that after watching tonights show. Maybe Remington will do a recall on the rifles!!! Just can't figure why a company as big as Remington would let a problem slide like this one!! Zeak