CNBC investigation of the model 700

[Swampman]

There isn't a problem and there won't be a recall.

[Harry Snippe]

Well it is clear that some of the rifles do go off by themselves closing the bolt or letting the safety off .
Happened to me with my 308 Model 660 twice . First time thought it was my fault , Second time I knew it wasn't anything I done wrong . The gun was sent in and repaired by Remington free of charge .
Afterwards I did have some one tune the new trigger , but it never failed again .

Let Remington repair the rifles in service that are affected , and let all the horses back to the stable .
Yes with Muzzle control no one is getting hurt , but get the rifles looked at either by Remington or if you need to by your buck . Let those with out Sin cast the first stone !!

Just purchased  a nice used  7600 Pump in '06 today . I was really going to check out a new Marlin LS7 Yeah!! I really tired to get that unit to drop the hammer by bouncing it about and slaming the bolt . I can go to sleep now . It passed the test .

[Swampman]

This happens will all brands.  It's no more common with the Remington than any other brand.  It's normally caused by shade tree gunsmiths and or inadequate cleaning of the fire control group.

[Doug B.]

There isn't a problem and there won't be a recall.

All of the above comments and there isn't a problem?

Let's think about this.

 

[Swampman]

Correct there isn't a problem.

[Dixie Dude]

It's mighty strange people have had problems with the safety, including people I know, and I have had problems with one of my 700's.  Only new gun I have ever had problems with. 

[SHOOTALL]

Correct there isn't a problem.

"I didn't have sex with that woman"
"I'm your president and I'm not a crook"
Well you will be in good company when the recall comes 

[Swampman]

There will never be a recall......This is ancient faux news that the liberal media has reinvented to hurt gun owners and the industry.

[SHOOTALL]

Hope you are correct. But wasn't the other two the same thing with regard to the media sorta ?

[Swampman]

Other two?

[GypsmJim]

Other two?

Not to take away from the OP, but after reading the thread isn't it logical that he was referring to the "sex" and "crook" comments?

[GypsmJim]

We all know that the liberal media delights in bashing us guys.  In most cases the gun owners rally to the cause.  But in this case its a little different.  There are just as many on our side that have come forward and defended the allegations.

To say there is no problem is not being realistic.  Remington's own data and activities over the years makes them look guilty.  Considering the crap they turn out today in many of their product lines, its no surprise to me.   My property is open to any hunter that asks me for permission.  As I said in my last post, if you're carrying a Remington, you are no longer welcome.

[Swampman]

Well there's no law against being brain washed by the liberal media.  Do as you wish.  There is no nor was there ever a safety issue with Remington products.  Remington quality is as good or better than it's ever been.  Keep drinking the Kool-aid.

[mcwoodduck]

We all know that the liberal media delights in bashing us guys.  In most cases the gun owners rally to the cause.  But in this case its a little different.  There are just as many on our side that have come forward and defended the allegations.

To say there is no problem is not being realistic.  Remington's own data and activities over the years makes them look guilty.  Considering the crap they turn out today in many of their product lines, its no surprise to me.   My property is open to any hunter that asks me for permission.  As I said in my last post, if you're carrying a Remington, you are no longer welcome.

Jim,
As I said in an earlier post about 2.5% of all products have a defect of some kind.
With 5 million rifles that have been made that is 125,000 rifles that could have had a trigger problem.
They could easily have has a stock, bolt, firing pin, reciever or other parts.
And while the idea of 2.5% failure rate is not great, it is standard and the bad thing is companies build into thier price fixing mistakes.
If by chance you recieved one of the failed guns Remington or (insert other manufacturer here) will fix it.
Even if they, were to make the other trigger there still could be a 2.5% failure with them and it could be the other way where the gun will NOT fire if the trigger failed.  Personaly I think I would rather have a trigger that fires when it fails than one that locks as a failure.
I have a Sako AIII in 375H&H that the screw holding the trigger to the action came loose and had a slam fire.  But with proper muzzle control it was not a disaster.  Put the rifle away and found out what was wrong when I took it apart.  Lock tight fixed it.  Consulted with my local gun smith that does the other than screwdriver work for me.  Had that still been a problem I would have looked at changing the trigger.
So far all three of my 700's have Been fine.  Had to clean the firing pin on the 700 V in 308 when it got gunky and stopped firing reliably.  but it works great now.  I look at both of these items as standard maintence mistakes.  I should have checked the screws when I bought a second hand rifle and made sure every thing was snug and stripped the bolts and cleaned the pins.  After all you do not buy a used or new car and not do any maintenance to them.
Also I can have a great conversation with you about any topic you are involved in and cut up the interview so you are bad mouthing the product you actually like.  The Media is skilled on presenting their point of view rather than the truth.  Yellow Journalism is not only ack it is the current journalism by MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC.
But as Remington has produced 5 million rifles and is selling 40% of the bolt market I don't think there really is a problem.  Other wise the hunters, police, and target shooters would be voting with their $ to make another more reliable or safer gun the #1 seller.
If you don't like or trust your 700 any more then trade it in for one of the many other makes.  I am sure if this peice does what they want and kills remington 700 sales then you will see a similar story on Ruger, Winchester, Savage, or who ever takes the #1 spot from Remington.
Remember Handgun control Inc. has spent more on Lobbying congress than it would have cost to have purchased Colt, Davis, Lorcin, High Point, and S&W and closed them, pretty much ending the US made handgun companies they hate.  The Liberal way is to outlaw or destroy rather than allow others to have products they do not like or using their money.

[skarke]

mcwoodduck,

This is an issue that drives a lot of passion.  That said, the failure rate of manufactured goods varies widely.  I am confident that, for instance, the failure rate of my Citizen watch is microscopic.  The failure rate of triggers and safeties HAS TO BE pretty small, IMHO.  The fact that it isn't statistacally 0 is concerning to me.  We all should practice muzzle control and safe firearms handling.  The design of the Remington trigger is truly outstanding.  What cannot be overlooked, however, is that people do try to adjust them, usually wrongly.

You couple that with todays cheaper springs, cheaper steel, cheaper labor, poorer QC, etc., and a company gets stuck between two evils.  If they recall the product, then they kill their company by exposing it to tort attorneys.  If they don't do a recall, then they allow a problem to persist.  Merely conversing about solutions within the corporation makes the manufacturer look like they are covering something up.

So, they fix stuff for people who complain without protest.  Never admit wrongdoing, maintain plausible deniability.  Welcome to the American tort abuse system.

[mcwoodduck]

I worked for a boiler company.
many of the componets we purchased had a 2.5% failure rate.  Just the state of things.  may have met spec when it left the factory but the shipping across country broke or loosened something. 
Some was due to the friday afternoons, some was material defects, and some were electrical.
When my Grandfather was providing parts for B-29s in WWII he would get 3% back from each plant.
The Plants were told they will see a 3% out of spec on all products and they needed to return 3% of all shipments back to the maker.  Since they were key components to the plane, Grandad made sure 100% left his plant in spec.  But later one of the plant managers came to him and said if they are allowing us a 3% failure why not take advantage of it and not have the QC department as they were having about a 1% failure rate on the line.  Why pay for inspectors to find the 1% if they were allowed 3%?  Grandad was allowed to board an Airplane and fly to Washington and around to the three plants (flying during WWII was very rare and only for important Business) explaining that unless they actually had a failed part to please not waist time and resources shipping them back and that he takes the time to make sure 100% leaving his plant are correct.  From then on the three pants making B-29 were more productive and less time and energy was waisted returning perfectly good parts because the government said 3% will fail.  What if he took the plant managers idea and fired the QC department or reassigned them to other tasks in the factory.  He would still be well below the accepted failure rate.  Some of the large companies have looked at the books and figured that they can factor in the failure rate to the cost and profits.  After all you are going to have 97.5% of your customers that are happy with the product.  And if you fix the problems with the 2.5% they too will be happy, maybe not as happy as getting a perfect one, but still happy the company fixed it.
I agree with you that we have products that are made as cheap as possible today.
But we did in way back when too.  No one over engineers mass produced stuff.
The armory making Brown Bess Rifles for the crown in the 1700 and 1800's were not going over board to produce the rifle that cost the most.  They made the rifles that would work as cheap as they could that met the spec. and turn out X rifles a day week or month to meet or beat the contract.
Some had faulty metal, not on purpose but due to a void, too much heat, not enough heat, or other materials that fouledd the alloy.
Today is no different.  Plant order sheets of steel from a foundry.  A Mouse dies and falls into the steel adds too much carbon to the steel and the springs or sheet steel is going to be a little off.  That sheet steel may end up being your trigger and the egde that should be a nice crisp point gets rounded easily.  The tooling breaks, and any number of problems.  Again all manufacturers build into their price some form of warrany. 5% of the costing on the boilers was for field repairs of defective parts.
While we all want the best product we may not be willing to pay for the very best product or be ale to afford a custom made rifle, that makes sure you have a 0.000% failure rate on a product out of the box.
And with your Watch.  Go buy 100 of them. I bet not all are identical and at least one will not be working out of the box- dead battery or other problem.  Some the clasp will break, the band will have a thin spot of leather and will not last as long or a bar or pin in the metal band will fatigue earlier than the others.  Had you recieved a watch that had a dead battery in it and the company gladly repaired the watch at no cost to you and gave you an extended warranty you would be happy.  Not as happy as pulling the watch out of the box with a fully charged battery but still you have a nice watch that works.  I had to bring my Buliva Accutron back to the shop three times before it was right and I was happy.  The two swiss army knock around watches I own that cost 1/6th the price of the Buliva have had not problems.  I am still happy with the Buliva because the shop that sold it made it right.

[GypsmJim]

There is no nor was there ever a safety issue with Remington products.  Remington quality is as good or better than it's ever been. 

I guess that's where our opinions differ, and that's the very reason I feel the way I do.  The silly news story didn't change my mind or tell me anything I didn't already know.  All it did was make me say "OMG others found out the same thing." 

I bought my first firearm about 45 years ago.  Since then I have purchased many Remington products.  Between about 1995 and 2005 I had six problems with Remington crap and had to have each item replaced.  Since then I have sworn to not own anything with that name on it, even if given to me for free!  Its not worth the hassle.

[Swampman]

Bought a new Remington today.  I'll be buying at least 2 more in the near future.

[bubbinator]

Mcwoodduck!  I didn't post myself as a victim, I hope.  I just said I had a similar experience and with the advice of my gunsmith/armorer who is very familiar with the issue, told me what to do, I did it, and now it works fine, and I never put a tool on it!  He saw the show too, and as a 3+ decade gunsmith/LE Armorer for multiple state and local agencies including SWAT Teams using Rem 700s , he has sympathy for the loss of the child reported, but also focused on the dad- expert shooter/loader/high end gun "practioner"- what did he do to his Rem 700 triggers that he won't admit to now, and how about the #1 rule of gun safety-Where is the muzzle pointing? That will always be a tragedy, enough said, God keep his little soul.
BTW-I have a Rem 700 HB .308 Sendero with the black/grey spider web stock and wide forend I got in a gun deal.  Of all my Rem 700s it has absolutely the best trigger of any rifle I own and I tried, after this show to make it malfunction and it will not! I bumped it on the floor cocked butt first, pushed the safety off hard, bumped the muzzle on the floor(carpet) hard safety on/safety off- and I don't have a trigger scale and this is not a light gun with a 26" HB, if it is over 2# I'd be real surprised!

[Swampman]

And perfectly safe as are all Remington 700s unless they've been messed with.

[Augustis]

There isn't a problem and there won't be a recall.

Swampman - Are you speaking on behalf of the Company again??? As usual you are WRONG, it was a horse trailer as the other gentleman indicated!!

What the show failed to expose is NEW rifles inside the plant malfunctioning, in the same manor as the claims by Remington's valued customers in the filed.

The argument(s) that have been raised in this thread seems strikingly similar to our terrorist enemies in the would, that being, "Its a holy war", or in this instance an attack on our rights to bear arms - It appears to be an effective ploy directed at those who will not take the time to look at the evidence, but the argument does not hold water... If NOT us, who bears the responsibility to address an issue of this nature, Who's responsibility, if not ours is to protect other gun owners from accidents through education of the facts related to an issue like this that can & will potentially lead to hunting related accidents in the future?

The primary reason that the officers/agents documented malfunctions in their Sniper rifles was of course for liability reasons, to protect the operators & agencies in the event of an inadvertent discharge during a call out. The chief of Police reports that the fire controls in their Sniper Rifles have NOT been tampered with, so that in part blows the theory that ONLY a bad trigger job can & will result in an inadvertent discharge in Remington rifles…

http://www.pressherald.com/news/craig-faulty-rif-les-taken-out-of-police-service_2010-10-28.html


 I believe the disclosure of facts in the documentary were well within the middle or the road, sticking to the "evidence" that supported not only the claims made by Mike Walker (who I know personally), but the FACT that we as a community (& I use the term loosely) bear an obligation to address an issue of such a serious nature - if we do not - then who will do it for us... like it or not, those are the options we are faced with. Education Beats Future Regulation!!


For those that have indicated problems with 600 series rifles, here are some facts that may, or may not be of interest to you:

In 1975, Remington conducted a "special safety audit" on M/600 series rifles. What sparked this audit was yet another complaint from the field, from a customer that reported his rifle fired on safety release, which Remington terms an "FSR". When the rifle was returned for "examination by Remington experts", to their dismay, they realized the condition could be duplicated!!

Remington began testing warehouse product - & ultimately determined that a significant percentage of rifles in the warehouse could be "tricked" into firing when the safety was released. If memory serves me correctly, only 26% of the rifles in the warehouse DID NOT exhibit the characteristic to fire on safety release after a sequence of manipulation of the trigger & safety was performed. So if 26% would not fail the test, that would indicate 74% of the sample tested DID!!

Further, Remington decided to test a sample of rifles that had been shipped to wholesalers -NIB- that had been shipped between given months of production. They felt that this would allow them to determine "how far wide spread" the defect was within the product line that had made it to the wholesale level. With that said, Remington gathered a sample of 615 rifles. Keeping in mind this is 1975, the final results of the audit revealed that "55.9%" of the sample could be tricked into firing when the safety was released.

For the record, Remington DID NOT issue a warning, or recall on the product line at this time, but did begin development of alternative designed fire controls that would mitigate the potential for such malfunctions to occur in the "M/600 & M/700" product lines.

The company failed to issue any kind of warning, or recall until October 1978. What ultimately caused the company to come to their senses was an incident where a 15 year old child, Will Coates in the process of unloading his 600 rifle shot his father, John Coates through the spine. Mr. Coates was a defense trial lawyer from the Texas area. The incident was witnessed by a friend of the Coates family,  a Judge. The Judge testified that the youth did not contact the trigger at any time prior to the discharge that severed his father spine.

To make a long story short, Remington's insurance carrier settled the case for a disclosed 6.8 million dollars in 1978, three years AFTER determining a significant quantity of rifles tested could fire on safety release. The case, as well as the settlement received wide publicity by the media, the companies insurance carrier ultimately dropped the companies liability insurance coverage. Now with the cat out of the bag regarding the defect & without liability insurance coverage Remington was forced to recall center fire bolt action rifles & pistol with "similar fire control systems" built under the Walker/ Haskell Patent - Dated July 11, 1950 - Pat. # 2,514,981.

The day after the announcement of the settlement Remington recalled the 600 series rifles & the XP-100 bolt action pistol. The recall targeted roughly 250,000 units in the field, but NOT the M/700 rifles. By this time in history, Remington had produced roughly 2 million M/700 rifles in contrast to the 600 series rifles, which included the M/600 - M/660 - Mohawk 600 & the XP-100 collectively. Ultimately the recalled 600 series rifles were fitted with a modified M/700 fire control system, which in fact has exhibited the same forms of malfunctions as the 600 rifles. The fact of the matter is every center fire rifle that Remington has produced since March 1948 has been plagued with these forms of malfunction - Fire on safety release "FSR" - Fire on bolt opening "FBO" - Fire on bolt closure "FBO" & Jar Off "JO" (Rifle firing when bumped, or dropped)

There is of course more to this story, but I think I will allow everyone to digest these factors before writing any more details surrounding this issue.

Last thing I would like to point out in this post, I copied the CNBC piece & have watched it several times personally - I have also watched the M/700 tv response... the way I see it, the journalist Mr. Cohen, in fact appears to have his trigger finger on the front of the trigger guard! Note the extension of the trigger finger, it appears straight to me.... More smoke & mirrors & further deception from Remington to distract you from the real issue - the documents that were produced as evidence to support Mike Walker among others???

Aug ><>       

[skarke]

I like Remingtons too.  They are fine rifles.  However, it might be time for a new trigger design, IMHO.

Mcwoodduck, I hear you man.  I work in a medical manufacturing business with divisions that sell surgical tools.  Some of these tools are as, or more,  sophisticated than triggers, and cost about the same.  I can say with absolute certainty that the surgical instrument manufacturing business doesn't produce tools with a 1 in 50 failure rate, not to discount anything that you have said.  Other stuff has an atrocious failure rate.  2.5% across all products in all industries sounds about right.

What I am saying is that certain products, say rifle triggers and surgical instruments, can and do have microscopic failure rates.  It is only logical.  I don't think that Remington's failure rate is anywhere near 2.5%.  What does exist with the Remington design is a possibility of failure that is inherent (to its design).  This potential for failure is compounded when QC has to be perfect to push failure rates to the necessary near 0% rate.

I like remingtons precisely because of their triggers.  Maybe it is time to alter the geometry a little, pay Jewell a truckload of money for their design, or something.  I'm no attorney, but in my very undereducated opinion, this type of issue does put the entire arms manufacturing business at risk

[Squib]

I think that when the accutrigger patent(s) expire that everyone will rip it off and that will solve the problem.  Notice that most new semi-auto polymer pistols are REALLY similiar to glocks now.  they all take it a different direction but the takedown levers, slide rails and firing pin cock and release are the same- especially the triggers.  I think savage is on the same level for the rifle market, especially NOW that remington has a huge black-eye.  for guys like me that will be around in 20ish years we'll be able to get both (700 action and almost savage trigger) from the factory eventually.

sorry old people  

[Swampman]

If Remington ever goes to the Accu-trigger I'll be replacing them.  I hate the Accu-trigger.

There is no problem with the Remington 700.  This is just an attack on gun companies and gun owners.

[texagun]

There is no problem with the Remington 700.  This is just an attack on gun companies and gun owners.

Keep drinking that Kool-Aid.......

[Swampman]

You guys are riding on the liberal media train...don't be talking about kool-aid with it drippin' off your chin.

[Lloyd Smale]

i dont often agree with swampman but in this case i feel about indentical to what hes posted about this whole ordeal. its nothing but another sneaky attack by the gun grabbing liberals. theyd like nothing more then to break or at least hurt a big company like remington. ive used 700s for over 30 years and have never had or even seen a single one go off that a guy didnt have his finger on the trigger unless it had its trigger tampered with and im not talking myself shooting a couple hundred rounds. Ive shot thousands and probably 10 thousand rounds through remington 700s in my lifetime.

[Augustis]

If Remington ever goes to the Accu-trigger I'll be replacing them.  I hate the Accu-trigger.

There is no problem with the Remington 700.  This is just an attack on gun companies and gun owners.

"Its a holy war"...  Swampman look at the evidence, the companies own internal documents that support the claims of the lead engineer, Merle H. (Mike) Walker!!! Is he anti gun and part of the conspiracy to discredit Remington also?? Last time I checked, Mike still shoots benchrest - As I see it ALL of the individuals involved in the documentary are shooters, gunsmiths, Federal Agents & Police Officers. Just because you dont like the message does not make them collectively wrong, or Remingtons internal documents any less valid. Its your knee jerk irrational defensive position that IS the problem, & not part of the ultimate solution to address this issue to protect our position collectively. You have NEVER been objective regarding this matter, or frankly any matter regarding Remington. With that said, nothing I am going to say will change your mind, I understand that - But do not take it personally that there are those of us that know better that will let you, or Remington continue to mislead the public any further. In time the documented facts will be known, I promise you that! Until then stay tuned... more information to follow ;O) 

Best Regards, Aug ><>

[Swampman]

CNBC is misleading.  The is no problem with factory adjusted triggers or the Remington 700.

All the documented facts have been available for many many years.

[Squib]

looking at the schematics for the "old" triggers didn't inspire any confidence in me.  the trapezoid appeared to stay put only due to friction and reducing pull weight would cut that friction down- I'd be scared to ever reduce the sear engagement.  I'd probably have greased it and put it back together tighter if anything!  I wonder where that leaves the first x-mark trigger.  I hear nothing but bad things about the new x-mark... so let's discuss the old rem and original x... I would like to hear about x-mark info if anyone has it.

After reading up on all the suppossed doomsday scenarios coming for us 700 owners (my 700 is an original x-mark) I flushed it out with lighter fluid (ronsonol), then rem oil, then dextron-atf.  I couldn't believe the amound of grey and black gunk that came out of it.  it looked like broke down grease and metal grit- seeing it come out of the trigger didn't make me feel good.  I don't know what I was thinking before, running that gun so dirty inside.  On the plus side, I've probably put 300+ rounds through it before ever flushing it thorough like that and it worked fine, now it's smoothe.  Hopefully those of you who were lazy like me give it a shot- you might be real happy with your pulls after.  You'll be happier if you use dextron type automatic transmission fluid because it doesn't run or evaporate and is really slick (doesn't wash off though, don't spill ANY).