Author Topic: CNBC investigation of the model 700  (Read 13997 times)

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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #120 on: November 08, 2010, 11:59:11 AM »
I like Remingtons too.  They are fine rifles.  However, it might be time for a new trigger design, IMHO.

Mcwoodduck, I hear you man.  I work in a medical manufacturing business with divisions that sell surgical tools.  Some of these tools are as, or more,  sophisticated than triggers, and cost about the same.  I can say with absolute certainty that the surgical instrument manufacturing business doesn't produce tools with a 1 in 50 failure rate, not to discount anything that you have said.  Other stuff has an atrocious failure rate.  2.5% across all products in all industries sounds about right.

What I am saying is that certain products, say rifle triggers and surgical instruments, can and do have microscopic failure rates.  It is only logical.  I don't think that Remington's failure rate is anywhere near 2.5%.  What does exist with the Remington design is a possibility of failure that is inherent (to its design).  This potential for failure is compounded when QC has to be perfect to push failure rates to the necessary near 0% rate.

I like remingtons precisely because of their triggers.  Maybe it is time to alter the geometry a little, pay Jewell a truckload of money for their design, or something.  I'm no attorney, but in my very undereducated opinion, this type of issue does put the entire arms manufacturing business at risk
Wonder if Remington ever thought about just offereing Jewel, or timeny triggers as a factory add.  Stick a J or T in the serial number.
I also wonder how many shops would pay the $45 to $60 extra for either trigger?
And you are correct some products need to have a 0% failure rate.  also the more compenets you have the more likely you are to have a failure rate.
and I consider out of spec to be a failure.
if the stock has a small crack, the sling swivels are 1/8" off ...ect, those are not perfect.  Thye may work great but are not exactly what they are supose to be.  My guess is that 2.5% of everything headed out the door is not with in spec.
Between metal parts, wood parts, plastic parts, and the fit and finishes on those pieces.... My guess 2.5% is correct.
When I said 2.5% I ment on the whole rifle/ Shotgun/ or handgun not on the triggers alone. 
With your instraments, you have a perfect spec and a standard divation of that spec that are acceptable.  A scaple.  the blade and the part that locks the blade to the handle have to be perfect.  If the handle has a knick in it, or if there is a hole in the handle that is there only to lighten the handle does it matter if the hole is 1/2" north or south of where it is supose to be?  They are fine and will work as designed but the hole is just off.  Does that count as a failure? 


Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #121 on: November 08, 2010, 11:24:55 PM »
Problem is i have a couple timeny triggers and they to can be ajusted down to the point there not safe. So I guess that if remington needs to make an IDIOT proof gun thats just not the way to go.
blue lives matter

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #122 on: November 09, 2010, 01:33:48 AM »
Only when the human race stops producing idoits will the world be idoit proof.  ;D
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline 243dave

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #123 on: November 09, 2010, 02:53:57 AM »
Savage has done a pretty good job making a idiot proof adjustable trigger with its accutrigger, as long as you don't remove the blade in middle of the trigger.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #124 on: November 09, 2010, 03:28:11 AM »
Well as long as an idoit can point it at someone and pull the trigger we ain't out the woods . No mechanical device including a lock is 100% idoit proof.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Swampman

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #125 on: November 09, 2010, 03:31:30 AM »
Savage has done a pretty good job making a idiot proof adjustable trigger with its accutrigger, as long as you don't remove the blade in middle of the trigger.

Yes but it sucks!
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline 243dave

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #126 on: November 09, 2010, 07:57:12 AM »
I disagree with you there Swampman.  Its a nice trigger that anyone can adjust with the little tool that comes with the gun.  The blade in the middle makes it feel a bit like a two-stage trigger but after a range session or two you'll like it, well I take that back, I doubt you would since its not a remington design.   ;D  

Offline Swampman

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #127 on: November 09, 2010, 09:46:20 AM »
It's just feels and looks really odd and cheap.  Ok for plastic pistols that people still manage to shoot themselves with though.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Harry Snippe

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #128 on: November 09, 2010, 02:46:42 PM »
Just read on the Hunting Nut forum
Remington has a program in place until the end of the year to repair some of the rifles that might have a problem with the triggers . So spread the word .
This should make every one happy .Does it for me !!
Happy

Offline Squib

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #129 on: November 09, 2010, 02:47:07 PM »
It's just feels and looks really odd and cheap.  Ok for plastic pistols that people still manage to shoot themselves with though.

a pistol without a safety that is forced onto guys who don't necessarily like them in the first place is a far cry from a hunting/sporting rifle chosen by the owner with purposeful intent..  that is backed by a real safety

what's wrong with a two stage, and at what point does a savage accutrigger actually feel like that?

Offline 243dave

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #130 on: November 09, 2010, 03:21:00 PM »
Nothing is wrong with a two-stage trigger, I love the Jewel trigger in my AR.  The accutrigger reminds me a bit of a two-stage trigger because you have to pull the trigger blade back to the real trigger(the second stage) before it fires.   Dave

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #131 on: November 09, 2010, 04:36:18 PM »
  I absolutely HATE two stage triggers, and that's why i don't like the accutrigger.  The last thing i need is one trigger that feels different from everything else i own, as the triggers on everything else i own work just fine.

  Savage should build a trigger WITHOUT their lawyers telling them how to build it.

  DM

Offline Swampman

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #132 on: November 10, 2010, 03:05:16 AM »
Yep,send your rifle back to Remington and they'll return it to factory specs so you don't shoot something.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline smokepole06

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #133 on: November 10, 2010, 12:36:56 PM »
Just read on the Hunting Nut forum
Remington has a program in place until the end of the year to repair some of the rifles that might have a problem with the triggers . So spread the word .
This should make every one happy .Does it for me !!
That was not for the AD in the CNBC piece, just that you did not have to place in FIRE to open the bolt.

Offline Harry Snippe

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #134 on: November 10, 2010, 02:01:06 PM »

That was not for the AD in the CNBC piece, just that you did not have to place in FIRE to open the bolt.
[/quote]

And Hello !!
Think this was when there was a problem - the safety and working the bolt .
Forget CNBC
Happy

Offline smokepole06

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #135 on: November 10, 2010, 04:26:52 PM »
May have a problem the next time i shoot, but from my 20 years experience with the 700, none. Don't adjust the sear. Keep pounds of pull up. Clean your gun. If you shoot alot, i.e. snipers, check for wear. By the way, the old recall on the safety was still operator error, they still required a brain to keep your booger hook off the bang switch. By the way, why did Browning change designs from the a-bolt having to be in fire to open the bolt to the new x-bolt that has that button on the bolt handle??????????

Offline Harry Snippe

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #136 on: November 11, 2010, 11:38:40 AM »
I wish
Every one would now take a second and go to the remington site .
They have listed the models with the "AD" problem and now until the end of the year will do something to your guns. This is now , just just a recall of twenty years ago .

This should now be the end of it , and let every one be happy and feel secure with a Remington Bolt .

Remington Bolt action Safety program
Under news and resourses
Safety Modification Program
Happy

Offline Swampman

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #137 on: November 12, 2010, 01:45:44 PM »
There is no AD problem.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #138 on: November 12, 2010, 02:44:58 PM »
There is no AD problem.
I think you ment to say there is not statisticly significant Accidental Discharge Problem.
I am sure there are a few rifles that get through the QC. and Fail after QC in either shipping, on the retailers rack or on the ride home from the shop.
Either way we all agree this was a hatchet job of Yellow Journalism that was set up to either cause Remington sales, legal troubles, or governmental regulation problems.  Remington has always been great about fixing any problems that have gotten past QC or damages done by previous owners.

Offline Squib

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #139 on: November 16, 2010, 03:40:54 AM »
hey I took a 700 out two days in a row and no does walked out in front of me and stood still so I could get them... damn remington  >:(

they own h&r (handi-rifles) and that rifle worked fine, but I don't know if it was made prior to remington buying them and combining them with nef...

Offline carp

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #140 on: November 30, 2010, 01:13:29 AM »
I know two individuals that had this happen to them with their 700s.

Offline Swampman

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #141 on: November 30, 2010, 03:34:14 AM »
And they or someone has tinkered with their rifles.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #142 on: November 30, 2010, 07:36:30 AM »
Shame that Remington will no doubt have to waste money defending itself. If you close a bolt and shoot someone the ? must be ask why you were pointing the gun in their direction in the first place . Would it not be smart to point the gun at the ground or sky ? not a building , truck or areas you are not sure of ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline carp

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #143 on: November 30, 2010, 08:04:02 AM »
And they or someone has tinkered with their rifles.

No, sir you are wrong. They were stock out of the box 700s with no modifications other than telescopic sights. How can you even make such a statement without any knowledge of the rifles in question?

Offline Swampman

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #144 on: November 30, 2010, 09:01:02 AM »
Because I get emails from folks on this forum telling me they thought their rifles hadn't been tamperd with, but the gunsmith they took it to said they had been.  This after fussing at me for suggesting the guns had been tampered with.

3 thing cause this "issue"

poor maintainence
tinkering
finger on the trigger

Nobody want's to admit to any of these 3
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline 243dave

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #145 on: November 30, 2010, 04:06:14 PM »
You forgot the 4th & 5th thing that causes issues Swampy-----4. quality control----5. a design flaw ----- ;D    You don't want to admit to these two either !! :o ;D

Offline Swampman

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #146 on: November 30, 2010, 04:07:37 PM »
Nothing to admit.....you just have to decide whose side you're on.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline 243dave

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #147 on: November 30, 2010, 04:30:05 PM »
I'm not sure I'm on a side.  I've never had a problem with the few 700's I've owned and don't know anyone who has.  But I'm not going to be blind and rule out the possibilty when the man who designed it says a trigger problem could and does exists on some guns and has introduced new designs to fix it for many years.  I agree most of the trigger issues that happen are due to improper adjustment---- but Swampy at times you practically call men liars and tell them that it must be their fault when it happened, sometimes a little tact and respect should be shown when one man disagrees with another, at times you lack that quality.     Dave   

Offline bigshooter

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #148 on: November 30, 2010, 05:17:26 PM »
Always use proper firearm safety, anytime when the safety is manipulated or the bolt turned to load and unload the chamber, point the firearm in a safe direction, no matter what! Never trust a mechanical safety of any kind! People talk about factory safetys are at fault or someone worked on the firearms trigger pull, all that is just speculation with no proof one way or the other. All that matters is safe firearms handling, period. Ever since I watched the program, seeing how the mother of the child that was killed handled her firearm, pointing it in an unsafe direction to unload the rifle, instead of at the ground, just makes me cringe. I hate it for her and her family more than anything, but that momentary instant of bad judgement had a aweful ending. It should be a lesson for all of us to be more villigant of safety and proper firearm handling. :(

Offline Swampman

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Re: CNBC investigation of the model 700
« Reply #149 on: November 30, 2010, 11:41:44 PM »
Ever since I watched the program, seeing how the mother of the child that was killed handled her firearm, pointing it in an unsafe direction to unload the rifle, instead of at the ground,

That particular rifle was covered in rust and all the adjustments had been tampered with.  Every rifle involved (seen the pics) had been tampered with.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~