CNBC investigation of the model 700

[texagun]

Ever since I watched the program, seeing how the mother of the child that was killed handled her firearm, pointing it in an unsafe direction to unload the rifle, instead of at the ground,

That particular rifle was covered in rust and all the adjustments had been tampered with.  Every rifle involved (seen the pics) had been tampered with.

I watched the program and I don't recall any comments about that particular rifle being "covered in rust and all the adjustments had been tampered with."

I'm convinced Swampman works for Remington.

[Swampman]

Pics and discription are on the net as they are for all of those rifles but the one that's still in court.

[jmayton]

Pics and discription are on the net as they are for all of those rifles but the one that's still in court.

How about providing a link?

[Doug B.]

Pics and discription are on the net as they are for all of those rifles but the one that's still in court.

How about providing a link?

Swampy........ step up to the plate.

[Swampman]

See pictures and descriptions at minute 2.50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_KVS1hIbQg

[GypsmJim]

Ever since I watched the program, seeing how the mother of the child that was killed handled her firearm, pointing it in an unsafe direction to unload the rifle, instead of at the ground,

That particular rifle was covered in rust and all the adjustments had been tampered with.  Every rifle involved (seen the pics) had been tampered with.

I watched the program and I don't recall any comments about that particular rifle being "covered in rust and all the adjustments had been tampered with."

I'm convinced Swampman works for Remington.

I disagree - His comments have done more damage to Remington that he could have ever imagined.  Support with no basis of fact would get testimony thrown out of court!

I was always tought to avoid using terms like "never" and "always".  Stating that "there is no AD problem" and implying that the Remington designer had ulterior motives is just speaking outloud with a hidden agenda.

There is ample evidence of Remington's liability.  Unless someone has examined every production sample, including the problem guns, they can render no valid opinion on the subject.

Personally, I can only provide anectodal evidence.  Every Remington item I bought in the past 10 years has been crap.  Although I wouldn't buy a 700, I wouldn't say they are all crap, or only some are crap, or none are crap, simply because I haven't seen all of them.

[Swampman]

I completely disagree with everything you've said and believe it is completely and totally false.  You're the one with a hidden agenda.

That's as nice as I can say it.

There is no problem with the Remington Model 700 that cannot be traced to the operater.  Watch the video.

[Harry Snippe]

I can not see why anyone would want to argue with the swampman .

You see he is indeed an expert on Remington arms, and too has been at the repair shop and viewed all the rifles that have been returned for repair .

We the ones that had a AD are just the lair and our agenda is just to bad mouth Remington arms .

Now there is some water front land cheap in the desert .You could invest in this land cheap NOW!! before they dig the hole for the lake .

[Swampman]

Everyone must choose a side.  The facts are in the video.

[Hooker]

Given the facts I'll have to side with Swampman.
In case you are wondering these are the facts.

CNBC has and always will be anti-gun and a un-reliable source of information.

Remington's 700 could not have survived for almost 50 years if it was defective and un-safe.

The anti gun crowd and CNBC want you to believe you are to stupid to know what a quality product is.
And that only they can save you from the evil manufacturers of guns who want you dead.


But if any of you believers can produce an unaltered properly maintained 700 that will go off all by it's self I'm sure it would make you rich.

Pat



 

[Harry Snippe]

Given the facts I'll have to side with Swampman.
In case you are wondering these are the facts.

CNBC has and always will be anti-gun and a un-reliable source of information.

Remington's 700 could not have survived for almost 50 years if it was defective and un-safe.

The anti gun crowd and CNBC want you to believe you are to stupid to know what a quality product is.
And that only they can save you from the evil manufacturers of guns who want you dead.


But if any of you believers can produce an unaltered properly maintained 700 that will go off all by it's self I'm sure it would make you rich.

Pat
Well Pat put up your Money as some one will come forward . My rifle was already done, as were others.
But I am sure there is still an unmodifyed  rifle out there !!

Other than that - I Know some of the rifles have had a AD.Not all where monkeyed with or dirty .

THAT IS A FACT!! While you and others "Just have an opinion"
WE SEEM TO BE BEATING A DEAD HORSE HERE!!.
Good Day

[30-30man]

Ever since I watched the program, seeing how the mother of the child that was killed handled her firearm, pointing it in an unsafe direction to unload the rifle, instead of at the ground,

That particular rifle was covered in rust and all the adjustments had been tampered with.  Every rifle involved (seen the pics) had been tampered with.

I watched the program and I don't recall any comments about that particular rifle being "covered in rust and all the adjustments had been tampered with."

I'm convinced Swampman works for Remington.

I disagree - His comments have done more damage to Remington that he could have ever imagined.  Support with no basis of fact would get testimony thrown out of court!

I was always tought to avoid using terms like "never" and "always".  Stating that "there is no AD problem" and implying that the Remington designer had ulterior motives is just speaking outloud with a hidden agenda.

There is ample evidence of Remington's liability.  Unless someone has examined every production sample, including the problem guns, they can render no valid opinion on the subject.

Personally, I can only provide anectodal evidence.  Every Remington item I bought in the past 10 years has been crap.  Although I wouldn't buy a 700, I wouldn't say they are all crap, or only some are crap, or none are crap, simply because I haven't seen all of them.

I have had the same experiences...Total crap from what I have bought.  Never again..

[Swampman]

No you haven't.

[Harry Snippe]

Don't believe after all these years the "Thing" with the trigger will  or has in the last 40 years -done any Harm to Remington Arms .I don't buy all that has been stated by the Media or Remington .But will believe some one who states they had a discharge . The question then , is the owner or Remington design at fault ."That is the question! "So really ??. If you have a problem then off course contact Remington , as any one with a toyota with no brakes .

Now
How do you guys rate the new X pro trigger that replaced the older unit ? Is there means to adjust it down to 3IBs or under ?
Any experiance with the VTR the Varmit target rifle with the trianglar barrel.Could I expect MOA with the 308 W
Never had one in the hand , but am intersted in something to mainly punch paper and the odd Yoke.
I liked the 660 Rem I had and in a dull moment sold it . Thinking of something to replace it .

Yeah!! Swamp , if you can own a winchester ,I can too add on to the remington line in the safe.

[Swampman]

If I were going to buy a brand new rifle it would probably be a FN Winchester Model 70.  Why you ask?  Because Winchester finally got it right.

That said, I've never seen a Model 700 that wasn't a tack driver right out of the box.

Tikkas, Sakos, and even the newest Savage rifles are all very accurate even though I don't like Savage products.  Nearly all current production boltaction rifles will shoot MOA with the right person behind the trigger.  If they won't, trade them off.

[Harry Snippe]

 
Swampy
You defend Remington to the death.
Think it would be a good guesture on Remingtons part, if they came out with "The Swampmans Special"  as the bone collector has with the Bushnel Scopes .Don't know of anyone who has not burnt the candle at both ends more as you have for remington.
Think it would be more pleasing to the eye than what is branded on the side of the 700 now .
It would need to be a custom shop gun with a squared reciever ,tuned up to meet your standards , And sure they would sell- being track drivers outa the box.

 I wonder Why now your interst in Winchester? They have there own quirks too . Have had three rifles in the past but now just own a Model 70 in 300 WM. built in 91 I think .The only thing I do not like on the rifle is the safety . It is stiff. I had a smith cut a coil off the trigger spring, and It shoots were I want the bullet to be placed .
Never handled an FN winchester , but if anything Like the FN Mauser of years past , I would think the product would be very good .
I wait to see what you report after your done setting up you new gun.
Have a Good Day

[1marty]

I just sold my rem 700 sps 7-08 and bought a browning xbolt in 7-08. I sold it not because of NBC but I never liked the trigger. It was a creepy trigger and the xbolt is crisp.

[TLARbb]

I am an avid fan of Remington 700 rifles (all of their rifles actually), and I am also a die hard detractor of CNBC.  But the fact remains, that Mr. Walker and others made Remington's management aware of the problem and their management chose not to implement a change to make the rifles safer.  IMO Remington should have made a change as soon as this was discovered (and it was discovered before the 700 was introduced to the market).  Kudos to Savage for designing, and implementing a safer trigger design on their rifles.  Remington had that opportunity and decided not to do it.  Now, it may have cost more by a nickle or 6 cents back when the problem was brought to their attention, but you can't blame the accounting people for this situation.  It is their job to know how much things cost, but the president of the company "calls the shots on consumer safety" not the accounting people.  

I am not going to get rid of my Remington 700 rifles, but I am going to make sure I don't have to take the safety off "safe" to open the bolt and unload the rifle and I will test the trigger system religously to make sure that grime and grit or rust and corrosion or wear and tear have not taken a toll on the trigger and safety mechanisms anytime the rifle has been unused for a period of time. If an aftermarket trigger comes out or if Remington offers a retrofit that improves safety without making the firearm unable to be fired accurately, I will change them all out.  In the meantime, for the one rifle I know that has the safety lever that locks the bolt in the "safe" position, I will change that safety lever out so that is not an issue.  Light trigger pulls require more care by the person(s) handling the firearm, but making 12# triggers is not the answer.

The whole episode should make everyone re-evaluate how they handle firearms around other humans or pets and make sure they know that a bullet cannot strike anyone if the firearm discharges for any reason.  I know I am going to be a lot more careful in the future and I urge you to do the same.  


Just one more thing, to consider is that a government which has disarmed its citizens is much more dangerous than Remington's Model 700 trigger system.

EJ

[Swampman]

I wonder Why now your interst in Winchester?

I hope to retire one day soon and I'm making every effort to fill in the gaps in my firearms knowledge so that I can buy me a little shop and do some gunsmithing in my spare time.  When questioned about a product, I like to have first hand knowledge & not just something I read in a magazine.  Since I'm not a professional writer the only way I can test or learn is to buy the products myself.  I'd like to have one of the new FNs and I may buy a .270 for my personal learning experience in the near future.

[charles p]

I own several 700s and two Win Mod 70s.  I've adjusted the trigger on all my rifles, except a Vanguard that a smith did for me years ago.  I've had two rifles fire when the bolt was closed.  Are you sitting down.  They were both Winchester Model 70s.  One Win 70 had the worst trigger I've ever worked with.  I know the former owner tinkered with it and put in a lightweight firing pin.  It now has a Jewell.

[reetired]

I have a remington 600 Mohawk . Remington had a recall after a young man shot his father in the back while trying to shoot from the back seat of a car(gloves on) and filed a lawsuit. I never sent mine in and have never had a an AD. I have owned it since 1977 and have used it to hunt deer every year but 2(navy).
When I unload I take the gun off safe, unchamber the first round. then I just nudge the remaining rounds out of the magazine and dump them out of the gun. No need to chamber each round. I do not shoot it with gloves on as the trigger has no creep and with heavy gloves you cannot feel the trigger and the trigger guard is not big enough. I have a cousin with a 660 and he is 54 and has owned his since he was 16. Never had a problem.

[Harry Snippe]

I have a remington 600 Mohawk . Remington had a recall after a young man shot his father in the back while trying to shoot from the back seat of a car(gloves on) and filed a lawsuit. I never sent mine in and have never had a an AD. I have owned it since 1977 and have used it to hunt deer every year but 2(navy).
When I unload I take the gun off safe, unchamber the first round. then I just nudge the remaining rounds out of the magazine and dump them out of the gun. No need to chamber each round. I do not shoot it with gloves on as the trigger has no creep and with heavy gloves you cannot feel the trigger and the trigger guard is not big enough. I have a cousin with a 660 and he is 54 and has owned his since he was 16. Never had a problem.

Then there are folks like myself, who had a AD more than once with a 660 . One fired as the safety was taken off with a loaded round , the other while closing the bolt on a chambered round .Remington did  make the repair and then no more problems ever !! It was after that the gun went to a smith to lighten the trigger since it gone from about a 3 -31/2  to more like seven.

There is lots of BS over the triggers involved about them being unsafe- modifyed by the owner , BUT there are also rifles that discharged with out any work done to them before . Not every one needs to take the thing apart new just out of the box as I see so many folks on the forum .At one time you learned to shoot the rifle as is instead of modifying the rifle to suit you.We were hunters not target shooters .
Yes there are lots of guys tinkering with things they should have best left alone, and remington wants you to believe that his is the main problem . But the average "JOE "here in Canada used his gun to hunt and learned to shoot it as it came.
If there is a recall-You just Damn Stupid!! NOT TO GET THE THING CHECKED OUT -

[Swampman]

My new term for this fad is "Remington Owner Induced Discharges" a.k.a. ROIDs.

[diggler1833]

Never saw anything (referring to mass-produced parts here) that was put together by man that didn't occasionally have a failure in one of them.

If the product were perfect then there would be no need to ever have a warranty now, would there?

That being said, I'm a bigger fan of the term "negligent discharge" as the vast majority of "accidental discharges" are due to negligence.  I Have never heard a story about a guy loading his rifle at the range while it was pointed in a safe direction and then having the rifle fire unintentionally...producing any harm to a bystander.  Have heard, (and watched a couple) many stories about somebody (censored word) around like they shouldn't have been with a loaded weapon and negligently discharged.  I have also heard from more than one person about a weapon malfunctioning and firing when it was not intended to.  Simple way to at least keep from causing an injury is to never point it at anything you do not intend to shoot.

I'm a big fan of the 700, although not nearly as much as Swampy.  I still believe though that there are the occasional crap Remmy product that comes off the line...why??? becasue I didn't build them all, and I would assume that I know the nature of man somewhat (meaning that some people aren't always cut out to perform the jobs they have as well as others).

[goofyoldfart]

BUMP-BUMP:

here it is Nov 4 and I am finally getting around to reading posts that I have posted in and there were further replies that I have not made reply to. My Bad. but there was one post that I feel obligated to reply back to and that is the reply that Scootrd made to one of mine. this was reply #57 on page 2.

Scootrd : It takes one hell of a Big Man to come back and make an apology like you made. I am just so sorry that it has taken me SOOO long to make a response to that apology and to say thank you . My only defense is that during that time period I became sick and was really not up to monitoring all the forum threads that I had posted in. By the time that I was better, I failed to remember that post. Sir, you manned up in a most respectful way and I respect you and thank you for that. Again, I apologize for not being able to respond and thank you for your response!! for what it is worth, I did watch the program and like you found that there is definitely 3 (only 2 if you discount Swampy's bias viewpoint  ) sides to the story. 1) that there WAS a safety issue which I believe could have been rectified by Remington  and 2) that this was definitely an attack by left wing, liberal Yellow Journalism.

To me, I believe that the most important fact that came out of this whole thing IS: firearms handling safety is the most important point to remember. We can have an issue with the weapon, but if we watch the direction of the weapon at all times then we can control and limit the danger to others where at all possible. Again Scootrd, thank you for your point of view and standing up as a man. Sir, you have my respect.  God Bless to all. 

[goofyoldfart]

BUMP-BUMP:

here it is Nov 4,2011(almost a year) and I am finally getting around to reading posts that I have posted in and there were further replies that I have not made reply to. My Bad. but there was one post that I feel obligated to reply back to and that is the reply that Scootrd made to one of mine. this was reply #57 on page 2.

Scootrd : It takes one hell of a Big Man to come back and make an apology like you made. I am just so sorry that it has taken me SOOO long to make a response to that apology and to say thank you . My only defense is that during that time period I became sick and was really not up to monitoring all the forum threads that I had posted in. By the time that I was better, I failed to remember that post. Sir, you manned up in a most respectful way and I respect you and thank you for that. Again, I apologize for not being able to respond and thank you for your response!! for what it is worth, I did watch the program and like you found that there is definitely 3 (only 2 if you discount Swampy's bias viewpoint  ) sides to the story. 1) that there WAS a safety issue which I believe could have been rectified by Remington  and 2) that this was definitely an attack by left wing, liberal Yellow Journalism.

To me, I believe that the most important fact that came out of this whole thing IS: firearms handling safety is the most important point to remember. We can have an issue with the weapon, but if we watch the direction of the weapon at all times then we can control and limit the danger to others where at all possible. Again Scootrd, thank you for your point of view and standing up as a man. Sir, you have my respect.  God Bless to all.

ETA: forgot to put the year in. It's been a while since I've been here on this thread, but the apology is necessary.

[goofyoldfart]

BUMP-BUMP:

here it is Nov 4,2011(almost a year) and I am finally getting around to reading posts that I have posted in and there were further replies that I have not made reply to. My Bad. but there was one post that I feel obligated to reply back to and that is the reply that Scootrd made to one of mine. this was reply #57 on page 2.

Scootrd : It takes one hell of a Big Man to come back and make an apology like you made. I am just so sorry that it has taken me SOOO long to make a response to that apology and to say thank you . My only defense is that during that time period I became sick and was really not up to monitoring all the forum threads that I had posted in. By the time that I was better, I failed to remember that post. Sir, you manned up in a most respectful way and I respect you and thank you for that. Again, I apologize for not being able to respond and thank you for your response!! for what it is worth, I did watch the program and like you found that there is definitely 3 (only 2 if you discount Swampy's bias viewpoint  ) sides to the story. 1) that there WAS a safety issue which I believe could have been rectified by Remington  and 2) that this was definitely an attack by left wing, liberal Yellow Journalism. 3) Swampy's viewpoint is ALWAYS right, no matter what.

To me, I believe that the most important fact that came out of this whole thing IS: firearms handling safety is the most important point to remember. We can have an issue with the weapon, but if we watch the direction of the weapon at all times then we can control and limit the danger to others where at all possible. Again Scootrd, thank you for your point of view and standing up as a man. Sir, you have my respect.  God Bless to all.

ETA: forgot to put the year in. It's been a while since I've been here on this thread, but the apology is necessary. Also had to put point 3 in.

[Swampman]

Just keep in mind there was/is no safety issue.

[corbanzo]

The only mistake remington made was to put an adjustable trigger in a gun that so many people would buy, and have a bunch of idiots messing with it.
 
I myself have tried to take the sear in a 700 to the point of crispness that can only result in an AD (Allmyfault Discharge)  I have seen the insides in as many pieces as you can make it into.  There is nothing wrong with the parts.  If it is unbroken assembled and adjusted correctly the mechanism will not fail.

[SHOOTALL]

Swampman only posted the truth . And yes Remington has put out some less than stellar products if you compare to top line products , but then they also put out some top line stuff also. Its what buyers are buying. If you want a top line rifle then get into their top line ones not the less expensive ones.
 
And good idea the M-70