.30-30 vs. .38-55 Handi..Brain picking time.

[petemi]

I know the velocity is greater in even factory ammo with the .30-30, but I'm thinking the larger bullet and meplat in the .38-55 will kill better at moderate ranges......right or wrong?

Pete

[quickdtoo]

In an H&R, the 38-55 loaded to 375Win velocities will have more energy and make a bigger hole out to 200yds or so but the 30-30 would still shoot flatter due to the higher BC bullets, 150gr at 2400 in the 30-30, 220gr at 2400fps in the 38-55.

Tim

[petemi]

Tim, I'm ready for this.....ya can pm me.  How'd ya get 2400 out of the .38.55?  Even my wife can't move that fast ....yeah and she's a "quick" too.  I'm probably ignorant...normally so...but I was thinking in terms of perhaps 17 - 18 hundred in the .38 and 21 - 23 in the thirty.  I know the tirty tirty will shoot flatter, especially so out of a Handi with a pointed bullet. 

My thought was the .38-55 might make venison better at moderate ranges.  Then, that brought up the second question.  If it does/did, why'd the tirty tirty become the "woods rifle"  and not the .55???

Soo many questions, so little time.

Pete

[manatee1947]

The 30/30 ushered in the era of smokeless powder, the 38/55 was designed for black powder, the 30/30 was the new high speed sexy load of the day. Later on it became the old guy when the new high speed loads came out, the 270, 30/06, then the magnum era.....just like the guys today like who? that kardashian girl ? while I still think Ann Margaret is hot. The 38/55 will kill any deer just as dead out to say 150 yards or so as an Ultra mag, and mess up a lot less meat in the process. I will run across one of those barrels some day when I have some change, and it will go home with me.

[cwlongshot]

Mornin' Pete,
 This is a age old quandary! The slow heavy bullet verses the lighter speedy one. Yours is pitting two mediocre calibers but still the same. 

I am firmly seated with the slow heavy crowd!! I'll take a large diameter bullet any time to a speedy one!! 

There is a formula out that better compare bullets as it takes into account the bullets diameter. I still don't see a way to accurately take diameter into account.

I would say your two calibers are very close, maybe too close to call. Personally, I'd take my chances and go with the 38/55.

CW

[STUMPJMPR]

Both cartridges are pretty much identical in performance.  There is a mathematical equation that proves it.
38-55 x bang = dead = 30-30 x bang.

[jeepmann1948]

Pete,
 In my humble unasked for opinion    I would choose the 30-30.
 A couple of the reasons are:
 1- It works
 2-My 30-30 is very light weight and a pleasure to carry
 3-Factory ammo works very well and readily available
 4 I have never had to track a deer that was shot with one out of eyesight in 25+ years of working with inexperienced youth hunters (most of which have never fires a rifle before)
 All that being said carry the one you like and go hunting,either one will work fine with a properly placed shot
Happy Hunting
George

[petemi]

I've got to say I'm with CW in the big and slow crowd......45-70, .445, .45LC, .357 Max and now the .38.55.

Tim and Stimpy, the Starline .38.55 long brass arrived yesterday along with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.  Today is the moment of truth.  I'm gonna load 5 with 25.5 gr. IMR4198 under the 213 gr. bullet and see what it does.  I just called Tony's Gun Shop, about 65 miles away and he has RL7, so I may be taking a ride today....if not today for sure Monday.  I think Patty has "honeydos" in mind for me today.   Deer season is looking brighter already, and I still have 3 weeks.

Pete

[bikerbeans]

Pete,

The 30-30 & 38-55 will both work just fine.  I would just pick the one that shoots the best.  If they shoot the same, draw straws.

BB

[LHitchcox]

Pick the .30-30 and have it Ackleyed. Then shoot 125 BTs or 130 Barnes. You will be amazed.

[gcrank1]

Cast bullets in my 38-55 'Ultra Hunter' go where Im lookin a 125ish yds. At 50, yeah, Im several inches high, but I know that and hold lowish for close up. Heart/lung/front shoulder/chest of a deer and I have a hole that, even without expansion, will be as big or bigger than an expanded 30-30 (and I like 30-30s all to pieces!),
Where you hunt trajectory and range may be more important than it is for me, thus an express load for flatter shooting may be your ticket. There was something like a 38-90(?) that was just that, a factory express 38-55, higher velo with a lighter bullet than the 245ish gr, 38-55. With the suggested .375 ballistics that will, no doubt, be a moot point, but I think in 'moots' a lot.

[quickdtoo]

Tim, I'm ready for this.....ya can pm me.  How'd ya get 2400 out of the .38.55? 

Just think of it as a .375 Win Big Bore single shot, I dunno if I can get 2400fps in the 18" barrel, but I'm at 2200fps with the 213gr bullets right now with 38gr RL7, after deer season I'll work on up to Paco's max of 42.5gr, maybe a bit more if the accuracy holds up. 

Tim

http://fiveshot.org/backissues/paco/375win.htm

[BluDino]

Nope. Dead is dead. Both will do that 'handi'ly.

[BluDino]

     On second thought....the 38-55 will kill a deer deader for a longer period of time than a 30-30.  The deer will lie flatter and be more stiller and less livelier than with a 30-30. Unless it's the other way around?

[gcrank1]

Thats why so many here like the 45-70 to 45-120 !!!

[cwlongshot]

     On second thought....the 38-55 will kill a deer deader for a longer period of time than a 30-30.  The deer will lie flatter and be more stiller and less livelier than with a 30-30. Unless it's the other way around?

LOL. "More deader" good one!

Cw

[Darreld Walton]

I was 12 when my Father and I drew two elk tags for Island Park, Idaho.  That was 1966.  Dad had purchased an old "pre-36" Marlin, a top eject .38-55 from a co-worker.  He also got four or five boxes of Remington 255 gr. factory loads with the rifle. 
We spotted a herd of about 30 animals on the flats to the east of Bishop Mountain Fire Lookout and also a two-track off the main road, so we high-tailed it down there, then walked in the last three or four hundred yards, till we could see the animals in the small meadow.  When the smoke cleared, one animal was down with an '06 hit, the other with the .38-55. 
When we got the two rag-horn five points home, hung, and skinned them out, we found the Remington 255 bullet mushroomed under the hide on the off-side after having gone through both shoulders.  It fell out when the hide was pulled back.  Still weighed 230 grains.  No bloodshot meat, the hole was straight and true through the tissue, and we ate the meat "clear up to the bullet hole". 
Now, those loads were giving at best around 1600 fps, and in this rifle, with well worn, oversize bore, were likely giving a 'bit' less than that.
I wouldn't try it in an older lever gun, or blackpowder single shot, but that 235 gr. Speer, or the Hornady 220 spire point in a properly chambered .375 Winchester, at 375 Winchester pressure, SHOULD give 2000 fps+.  Not something I'd try in a .38-55 case of anyone's manufacture, that have the same pressure limits as the .30-30.  New .38-55 cases have the same web and base wall thickness as production run .30-30 cases, and .375 Winchester cases are a 'bit' beefier in those areas.  That's for the W-W cases, can't say about the Starline brass.  Pressure, by the way, for the .375 Winchester is around 52,000 psi, compared to a bit less than 30.000 psi for the best .30-30 loads, and a LOT less for 'safe and sane' .38-55 load data....
All I know is that that big 'ol bullet chugged through a whole lot of elk shoulder, made him really, really dead, and he tasted really, really good to a 12 year old sharing 'his' kill with the family that winter!

[petemi]

Darreld, an interesting and informative post.  Thank you

Pete

[quickdtoo]

Thanks for sharing DW, great story!  

375 Win pressure is 52kcup, not 52kpsi, it's in the neighborhood of 60-65kpsi best I can figure out using QuickLoad and the chart at the link below and easily doable in an H&R 38-55 on a modern SB2 frame, case head is much smaller that a 270 Win which has a SAAMI MAP of 65kpsi or 52kcup. I shoot 220gr jacketed in one of my 38-55 Target Classic at 2375fps, and 213gr jacketed at 2200fps in my 18" barreled version. 38-55 brass used at 375 Win pressures is a non-issue as Paco Kelly points out, and preferred due to the larger case capacity.  Don't plan on getting any accuracy with .375" bullets in an H&R 38-55 barrel, my barrels are "tight" compared to earlier made barrels and keyhole .375" 235gr Speer bullets at 100yds....fairly accurately I might add, stick with .379" jacketed or .381" or bigger cast(as long as you can chamber them, that's another story) and you'll be happy!!  

Tim

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

http://fiveshot.org/backissues/paco/375win.htm

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=2137&highlight=.375+win

[Blackhawker]

I've got to say I'm with CW in the big and slow crowd......45-70, .445, .45LC, .357 Max and now the .38.55.

Tim and Stimpy, the Starline .38.55 long brass arrived yesterday along with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.  Today is the moment of truth.  I'm gonna load 5 with 25.5 gr. IMR4198 under the 213 gr. bullet and see what it does.  I just called Tony's Gun Shop, about 65 miles away and he has RL7, so I may be taking a ride today....if not today for sure Monday.  I think Patty has "honeydos" in mind for me today.  Deer season is looking brighter already, and I still have 3 weeks.

Pete

Pete, if you were looking for more velocity (by your original question to Tim, I take it you are) I put that 25.5 griains of IMR 4198 under my 265 grain FPGC bullets.  My guess is that you can go a lot more than that with the lighter bullet.

By the way, I'm with you and CW.  Although I'm not hunting deer, I just love to launch big anchors from my barrels!  There is something cool about lobbing big, slow moving projectiles down range!

However, (answering your original question) for the non-loader, the 30-30 is the way to go....more rifles made in the caliber that are somewhat affordable and the factory ammo is readily available.  The 38-55's are a little scarce in production and in general, you pay a little more for one when you find one.   Hmmmm.....I wonder if the extra cost has something to do with it being "better" or just cooler to shoot??   

[Blackhawker]

     On second thought....the 38-55 will kill a deer deader for a longer period of time than a 30-30.  The deer will lie flatter and be more stiller and less livelier than with a 30-30. Unless it's the other way around?

LOL. "More deader" good one!

Cw

So does that mean it'll kill it twice?   
(It's already dead in the afterlife)

[quickdtoo]

Pete, if you were looking for more velocity (by your original question to Tim, I take it you are) I put that 25.5 griains of IMR 4198 under my 265 grain FPGC bullets.  My guess is that you can go a lot more than that with the lighter bullet.

For the 265gr jacketed that Pete and I have, I opt for H322 for around 1900fps, AA2460 for 1900fps or AA2230 for 2000fps, all listed in the Lyman 48th for 255gr jacketed.

Tim

[Blackhawker]

Pete, if you were looking for more velocity (by your original question to Tim, I take it you are) I put that 25.5 griains of IMR 4198 under my 265 grain FPGC bullets.  My guess is that you can go a lot more than that with the lighter bullet.

For the 265gr jacketed that Pete and I have, I opt for H322 for around 1900fps, AA2460 for 1900fps or AA2230 for 2000fps, all listed in the Lyman 48th for 255gr jacketed.

Tim

Thanks Tim.  I should be careful about making posts like that.  I was just guessing that one could go higher with lighter bullets......however, one should ALWAYS check the loading manuals to BE SAFE!   

[quickdtoo]

As always, start low and work up in small increments, that's the safe way.   The difference is case capacity between 375 Win brass and 38-55 brass will more than make up for the different bullet weight, so could actually exceed those velocities as Paco Kelly shows, of course accuracy is the main goal in working up the load, but so far in both of my barrels, the more powder I shot, the better the accuracy got, still have more work to do with the 213gr/Rl7 loads in the 18" Shorty 38-55, Lyman's test rifle had a 20" barrel.

Tim

[petemi]

Quote from blackhawker:

The 38-55's are a little scarce in production and in general, you pay a little more for one when you find one.   Hmmmm.....I wonder if the extra cost has something to do with it being "better" or just cooler to shoot??

The .38-55s are cooler to shoot, but the extra cost, if you're not reloading is almost 2 bucks a shot compared to under a buck each for the .30-30.  Thanks to my bride, I no longer have that problem.  She bought me a reloading set last April for my birthday, and with Tim's help and a lot of others, I'm making loads I couldn't afford otherwise.  I haven't sat down and done the math, but I believe I can load and shoot just about anything for a quarter of the factory price, assuming I have the brass.....and I have tons of brass in the calibers I shoot often.  Da tirty tirty is next in line followed by the .308.  Availability of powder locally is the greatest problem.  The closest two places that have any, and not a large variety, are 75 miles away.  It's either that or the HAZMAT charge, and if I do that, it's gotta be a BIG order.

Pete

[gcrank1]

Pete, if you are still buying it in the 1# cans you gotta start looking at the big canisters! Yea, there are a lot of powders out there, but I have been using only about 3, and most of the time 2, for years. That is to say, you probably dont need 6 or more powders to do what you want. If you do, just keep a few of the rarely used around in the 1#.

[petemi]

Pete, if you are still buying it in the 1# cans you gotta start looking at the big canisters! Yea, there are a lot of powders out there, but I have been using only about 3, and most of the time 2, for years. That is to say, you probably dont need 6 or more powders to do what you want. If you do, just keep a few of the rarely used around in the 1#.

You're right.  I should buy stuff like RL7, IMR4198 and Bullseye in large quantity.  I must have 1500 38 Spec. brass, and I shoot a lot of .38s just playing with my Handi and Blackhawk.  That eats up a lot of Bullseye.  Loading .45-70 brass takes a lot by volume as does the .38-55.

Pete

[Blackhawker]

Over the past year I've been trying to test loads using certain powders that will span across various calibers so I don't have a million different one pound cans of powder all over the place.  When you have that, you'll soon find that you need two of each because one tends to run out just when you need it most.  SO....I've been working with 2400 a lot.  It works in my 30 carbine, 357 mag, 45 Colt, 45-70, 38-55 with good to near excellent results.  I'm still working on more precision with it but so far two bottles of 2400 can or will literally replace having a bottle of H-110, 296, IMR-4227 and I may even retire using HS-6 in my 45 Colt as well. 

Pete, if you can find one powder that spans all or a bunch of calibers with decent accuracy, it would probably be worth doing since it seems that getting powder is a bit of a hassle for you.

[Blackhawker]

As always, start low and work up in small increments, that's the safe way.   The difference is case capacity between 375 Win brass and 38-55 brass will more than make up for the different bullet weight, so could actually exceed those velocities as Paco Kelly shows, of course accuracy is the main goal in working up the load, but so far in both of my barrels, the more powder I shot, the better the accuracy got, still have more work to do with the 213gr/Rl7 loads in the 18" Shorty 38-55, Lyman's test rifle had a 20" barrel.

Tim

Unfortunately, I've been having problems with that in my Target Classic.  It seems the more powder I add with IMR 3031, IMR 4198 and especially 2400, the worse my groups get....and FAST!  I think it has something to do with the bullets I use.  I'm using .379's and I bet my barrel would get better results with .380's.  I'm not sure if I can chamber those though.  Nonetheless, I'm pretty happy with the accuracy I get at the mid-range velocities.  I suspect I'm getting (with no chrono) somewhere between 1500 to 1700 fps with those 265 grainers, (actual weight, roughly 282 grains) depending on the powder I'm using.

[gcrank1]

My plain base (any rifle caliber) do best at 1450fps or less, after that you probably need a gas check bullet design. You might try 'poly checks' until you can get the real deal. If the bullet is too small a dia even a harder alloy wont solve it. The solution is to neck ream the chamber or thin the necks (neck turn the brass though whatever method works for you) of your brass to take a bit larger dia. bullet.