Advice: Lever guns for my girls.

[the cableguy]

Hi,

I grew up in Pennsylvania hunting whitetails with a lever action. I now live in Washington, and two significant developments have just occurred. My wife is interested in hunting next year (and given the choice between bolt or lever action, she wants a lever action. Yes!) AND I found out my 8 yr old daughter will be old enough to hunt next year as well (in PA I had to wait until I was 12).

So, this has raised a couple of issues that need solving. Mainly, what gun and what caliber?

I hunt with a Marlin 336BL that is 37" long and weighs 7.5 lbs, chambered for 30-30. My wife recently held and fired it and thought it was too heavy and kicked too hard. Therefore, I am thinking of getting her a lever action in 44 Rem Mag. I know this is a very powerful handgun round but it MUST be less powerful than a 30-30 rifle round, right? Can anyone speak to this? I have never fired a 44 Mag rifle and have no idea how it would kick. I want my wife to be comfortable and look forward to practicing with her rifle. Of course, alternatives would be 45 colt and 357 mag but I think if she enjoys hunting, like I hope, she would even be interested in hunting bear eventually. Any thoughts? The gun that I am thinking of for her would either be the Marlin 1894 deluxe (37.5" and 6.5 lbs) or the 1894 SS (37.5" and 6lbs). Or there is the Rossi M92 carbine with 16" barrel only weighing 5lbs but I would want to put a scope on it to give her an advantage since she has no hunting experience and little gun experience and I'm not sure you can do this with a Rossi.

Now for my daughter. She is only 8 and I have similar concerns. I am thinking nothing bigger than 45 Colt for her BUT I have no idea if this would be an effective deer cartridge, or waht the recoil in a rifle in a rifle would be like. Anyone with experience on this? Additionally, the only "suitable" rifle I can find for my daighter is the Rossi M92 carbine with a short 16" barrel that only weighs 5lbs. It seems like it would be a great fit for her.

Here are my itemized questions:
1. Would a 44 mag rifle kick less/more than a 30-30 rifle?
2. Max distance for taking deer with 44 mag rifle?
3. Would the recoil from a 45 colt be too much for an 8 yr old girl?
4. Is 45 colt an adequate cartridge for deer? If so, max distance?
5. I know Marlins are great, but what is the deal with Rossi? I have heard of problems (mainly with the 454 casull round that I am personally interested in  )

I am excited for my gals to begin their hunting adventures next year and really want to choose the right caliber and gun for both of them. Thanks in advance for your help and advice!

-will 
   

[ncsurveyor]

Here are my itemized questions:
1. Would a 44 mag rifle kick less/more than a 30-30 rifle?

My 96/44 kicks less than my sons 336.  If possible, find a 44 that'll shoot specials, or reload.

2. Max distance for taking deer with 44 mag rifle?

I stay under 150 as a rule of thumb.

3. Would the recoil from a 45 colt be too much for an 8 yr old girl?

no prior experience

4. Is 45 colt an adequate cartridge for deer? If so, max distance?

no prior experience

5. I know Marlins are great, but what is the deal with Rossi? I have heard of problems (mainly with the 454 casull round that I am personally interested in  )

no prior experience

   

[tacklebury]

Even at 900fps from an antique .45 Colt, it'll shoot through deer.  At 2k fps from a modern firearm it'll shoot through a couple.    I'm using 300 gr. XTP Magnums, but any 250-300 gr. lead will do the same or better.  Here's an interesting article on the .45 Colt in leverguns if you're interested. 

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[mcwoodduck]

Here are my itemized questions:
1. Would a 44 mag rifle kick less/more than a 30-30 rifle?

My 96/44 kicks less than my sons 336.  If possible, find a 44 that'll shoot specials, or reload.

If you reload you can reload in the 44 mag case so no need to find a lever that will shoot spl.  Reloading to 44 Special levels is easy I do it all the time for my revolver for targets
When you say 44 there are a wide variety of 44 mag loads.
I found the Reminton/ UMC 180 grain either JHP (rem) or JSP (umc) loads to be very mild in my 44 mags.
I have let a few kids shoot my Ruger 99/44 deerfield with both the 180 and the 240 grain loads and they say the 240's kick more and don not want to shoot them out of the little rifle.
Since we are talking deer, the smaller 180 grain bullets will work.  Since they are flying faster (1600 fps out of a handgun and about 1850 out of the carbine)  you have less bullet drop out to 100 yards.  At my last club we had a "running deer shoot" that was a picture of a deer on a frame 120 yards away.  2st shot was a standing deer and the next three were at a running deer.  The 1st shot got the guys to crank the deer.
With the 240's I had a hard time hitting the deer.  With the 180's a little easier.
The Winchester 210 grain Silver tips are a reduced load as well.  The bullet is designed for deer.
Out to 75 yards hitting a deer sized target was not a problem.  You can get deer picture targets at Sportsmans warehouse.  Good to have the wife and kid practice on a deer.  The X-Ray targets have a picture of the heart and lungs and you can see whare you need to aim for a clean hit.
With the kid I would look at one of the H&R handi guns that can be cut down easy and a large decellerator pad added.

[tacklebury]

+1 on the Handi.  This is my Colt. 



I load up 200 gr. RNFP bullets I can get for 69 bucks for 1000 and they are very consistent and accurate.  I load these up with 6-8 gr. unique for practice/plinking.  They kick like a .22 magnum in a bolt gun.  Nothing wrong with the .44 either as Mcwoodduck stated. 

[mcwoodduck]

Tackelerry,
Do you realize you showed a picture of the rifle  you are recomending to a father for his kid with a big warning saying keep out of reach of children.
Or does that mean the box?  the corrigated sides can make for very evil paper cuts.

[tacklebury]

ROFL    Well unassisted keep out of their reach.  lol

[BBF]

I see nothing wrong with a 336 Marlin for the wife using reduced recoil ammo. Trim the stock it needs to fit !!
 I'm not making a recommendation for your daughter in a lever gun. However a Handi in 30-30 might be doable with light loads.  If you handload you can really go mild with this case.Kids grow quick and what may be ill fitting this year is just the ticket a year down the road.

[Land_Owner]

They may shoot me over on the Handi-rifle board, but...for my 10 y.o. son's 12 Ga Handi-single shot, I took a steel rod of the same diameter, ground off the bolt head and fitted it to the length of the hole in the stock where the stock is bolted to the receiver.  I took off the butt pad, stuffed that rod up there, put in some lead to reduce the sliding and rattling, and replaced the butt pad.  The weight added by the rod was not too much and the felt recoil was significantly reduced.

I suspect this method would work very well with ANY Handi-rifle.

[GH1]

Have you considered Marlin levergun in .357?  The recoil should be considerably less than the .44 mag and it's good out to 100 yards, provided the she does her part.
GH1

[buck460XVR]

Now for my daughter. She is only 8 and I have similar concerns. I am thinking nothing bigger than 45 Colt for her BUT I have no idea if this would be an effective deer cartridge, or waht the recoil in a rifle in a rifle would be like. Anyone with experience on this? Additionally, the only "suitable" rifle I can find for my daighter is the Rossi M92 carbine with a short 16" barrel that only weighs 5lbs. It seems like it would be a great fit for her.

...altho I love levers, and grew up hunting with them, I am not one to recommend them for young, inexperienced shooters. First is the hammer safety. Not that it is bad, but is is difficult for small hands, especially when fingers are cold or they are using gloves or mittens. Secondly is the tubular feed. Loading one at a time thru the loading gate is not too bad, but having to  cycle the action to eject all the shells is not quick, easy or safe....again especially for persons with little experience and little hands. Yes some of the new levers have a bolt safety, that makes them safer, but not all do. I enjoy the challenge of hunting deer with pistol caliber carbines, but the loading and unloading of my levers drove me nuts, even more so on those days when I moved from location to location and had to empty the gun several times a day. My solution was getting a 77/44 bolt action .44. Light, accurate, easy to load and unload with the rotary mag and the safety is handy and easy to use. Mounting a scope on it is easy also. It will probably be my granddaughter's first deer gun for all the reasons stated. Altho the 16'' Rossi is  a tad lighter in the front end and is easier to maneuver in a blind , mine tends to kick upwards and with more force than my 20 inchers.

[yukondog]

I have a rossi 454 casull and have had no problems with it and you can shoot any 45 colt in it.

[BBF]

Is there really any reason to stuff those tubular magazines to their full capacity??

[Empty Quiver]

Something to consider, and I will use my daughter as an example. The length of the barrel is as much a problem as the weight. The length gives those few ounces more leverage. Second is that women have weak arms and shoulders, a little weight training with 2.5 lb dumbells might really suprise them. The last thought is to use a high quality pad and have the stock cut to fit them with a heavy coat on. She can hardly shoulder a full size shotgun but the youth model is no sweat for her, the smaller size lets her arms come in closer to her body, and puts the weight more between her hands not outside of them.

[BBF]

............................and have the stock cut to fit them with a heavy coat on. She can hardly shoulder a full size shotgun but the youth model is no sweat for her....................

 To me the fit is the major consideration whether youth, woman or man.

[yellowtail3]

Is there really any reason to stuff those tubular magazines to their full capacity??

I usually go into the woods w/four rounds in my 336; one for the deer, another for a second shot if deer is getting up (very rare; they usually just run off 40 yards and die) and two more for beavers on the way out. Vast majority of time, only one round expended (or none...)

[BBF]

You would think that Marlin etc could come up with a twist off cap on the mag tube similar as a lot of pump 22 rims used to have. This way you dont have to unload thru the action.

[purpledragon]

I am with Buck 460 on the Lever for kids and the safety issue. I am with tacklebury on the little H&R Carbine as I myself have one,no recoil with 45LC rounds. Then when the gal get where she wants something bigger do as I did mine re-chamber now I can shoot 45lc,454cassull,and the 460S&W..............

[BBF]

Is there really any reason to stuff those tubular magazines to their full capacity??

I usually go into the woods w/four rounds in my 336; one for the deer, another for a second shot if deer is getting up (very rare; they usually just run off 40 yards and die) and two more for beavers on the way out. Vast majority of time, only one round expended (or none...)

So when you get right down to "Need", two rounds will do in a magazine type firearm. I do that with my 742 as well. I all of the years that I have hunted, I recall only three instances when I had the time to fire a second shot and that was at game that was imobilized but still kicking so to speak.

[Mikey]

Cableguy:  I think you are thinking too far in the future for your wife and daughter and possibly need to think about 'now'.  Now, with your wife possibly not having a lot of experience shooting (I didn't read a lot from you about her shooting experiences) I would start her with something basic in a caliber that works and let her progress from there - my thought was a Rossi M92 in 357 that shoots 38s and 357s and let her gain skills on a basic platform, with open sights, before you gussy things up on a 44 with a scope.  Also, with a 92 that can fire 38 spls your wife can enjoy a plinker to improve her skills yet have a good enough caliber for smaller game around the house (38s) and even something she can take to the range with your 8 y/o daughter.  As for the daughter, if you want to start her with a lever action, try a 22 lever - fun and easy to use.

I would suggest starting both off with something they can handle and learn on, then you can progress to something larger and heavier. 

As for the 357 - one of our posters uses the 357 in both a 20" rifle and a 6.5" revolver, and always drops them out to and beyond 100m with the rifle.  If you are looking for the eventualities of the future, prepare her with the 'now'.  Your daughter, too.  jmtcw.

[Mohawk]

I agree. The .45 Colt in a rifle is very mild to the shooter and deadly on deer. 

[DANNY-L]

I dont own one but I like the brownings because of the detatchable magazine,I also consider it to be safer unloading.

[pastorp]

The 44mag in a lever will have about the same felt recoil as the 30-30. A marlin 1894c fills the bill for your wife nicely and the 357mags recoil less and kill about as well as a 30-30. For your daughter a h&R in 357 will do nicely. Cut the stock to fit her and replace it when she grows with a full sized one. 

Don't you just love it when things work out.

Regards,

[BBF]

If you handload you can get the 44 Mag down to "comfortable" for your daughter and only have to "mess" with one cartridge.