Author Topic: If force is used, what can you say to the police? Do you carry all the time?  (Read 1907 times)

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Offline His lordship.

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I currently live in Texas and am waiting for the paper work to clear on the concealed handgun license that I applied for, do remember the old days in some of the North Eastern states that I read about, concerning using a gun for self defense.  Pretty scary for the defender. :o   

If I was to shoot an attacker, in my home, or on the street, what can I say to the police when reported?  I don't know an attorney, but our handgun teacher said to look for "The meanest looking lawyer in the phone book".  Do I put the pistol down when the police arrive, or unload it if it is used?   

From what I have read, it is rare to discharge a gun as the invader usually leaves when the opportunity for an easy mark is gone.  But when drugs or alcohol is used, people don't think rationally.

My teacher said we should carry a gun all the time, but I am not sure that is necessary.  He also talked about alternatives like a knife or pepper spray, however, the alternatives won't help if your attacker pulls a .38 cal. revolver. 

I know that most people here are not attorneys, but some are police officers.  Any good advice on procedure if something bad should happen?  I had read Massad Ayoob's book on using a handgun years ago.

Thanks.

Offline Scibaer

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Well in all honesty, without making the mistake of giving out legal advice, if you are in a situation of having shot someone, its most likely whether you are in the right or wrong, you are going to be arrested, the smartest option is to say nothing, remember your rights, speak to an attorney.   
resist making any comments, justifications or reasons for the shooting, get your some legal representation.

Offline SHOOTALL

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First of all never ever say you shot or killed someone . Only report you were attacked and defended yourself and no more.
 When cops show up anyone with a gun is a threat to them SO PUT IT AWAY BEFORE THEY SHOW UP.
I would add don't pull it out unless you are ready to defend yourself. As example - you are in a store in a bad part of town . You are in the back when a guy comes in to rob it. He misses seeing you so you draw your weapon just incase he sees and tries to shoot you. The cop on stake out sees you with a gun but from the freezer can't hear or know you are not with the robber. It could end bad for you if shooting starts.
And find a good attorney and carry his card , better to know him before trouble starts or better he know you !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Bigeasy

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As a former long time LEO, A couple words of advice-

Know the laws R/E deadly force in your state.  They do vary.

Never use deadly force unless you truly believe your life, or that of a loved one is in immediate danger.

Any situation you have the option of walking away from, do so.

If you do have to use your gun, as soon as you are sure your opponent is no longer a threat, re-holster your weapon if in public.  If at home, place it in plain sight on a table or counter top.

No matter if someone has already called the police or not, you call.  Tell them your name, your location, what you look like, and that you have been involved in a self defense shooting.  Ask them to send an ambulance.

Ask any witnesses at the scene to stay until the police arrive.

When the police arrive, keep your hands in plain sight, and immediately identify yourself as the victim / caller.  Advise the officer where your weapon is, then follow his instructions to the letter.

Police reactions can vary widely, and you will be under extreme stress.  The smart thing to do is to simply state "he threatened to kill me with a knife, gun, whatever" and that "I felt in fear for my life".  Then politely but firmly state that you want to speak with your lawyer.  Make no further statement until you speak with legal council.  Under extreme stress, its to easy to say something stupid, or be led into a statement you didn't mean to say.  Frankly, if its obvious it was self defense, MOST responding investigators know it when they see it, and will treat you fairly, but don't depend on it.

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline jimster

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I think Bigeasy covered it all perfect IMO.  Nothing to add to that.  So I will answer the second question.

Quote
Do you carry all the time?

Yes

Quote
My teacher said we should carry a gun all the time, but I am not sure that is necessary. He also talked about alternatives like a knife or pepper spray, however, the alternatives won't help if your attacker pulls a .38 cal. revolver.


He's Right.

I went to the local gas station/party store late one night to grab a coffee because I wanted to stay up and wait for my wife to get home from work. Just missed and armed robbery there, (glad I missed it actually!, this kid fired a shot into the store with his .22 on the way out, the money wasn't enough I guess) but if I would have walked in there 40 minutes earlier I would have been more upset if I were unarmed and helpless. You just can't know when or where.
 
Quote
And find a good attorney and carry his card , better to know him before trouble starts or better he know you !

Shootall is right on, have a card or two in your wallet already, you got plenty of time to search for a good lawyer right now. No sense in trying to pick one in a hurry out of the yellow pages. 

Jim

Offline Spirithawk

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Yes, I carry all the time. A bad guy isn't going to call a time out for you to run home and retrieve your firearm. The first thing you tell an officer is that you have a CCW permit. One of the CCW badges helps. Have it in hand and visable when the officer arrives. As Shootall said, have your weapon put away. The second thing you tell him is that you were in fear of your life and defended yourself. Then shut up! "In fear for my life" is the key phrase. 

Offline Dee

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In 20 years of Law Enforcement I saw my share of shootings and on two occasions used my gun in self defense. Both of mine were obvious, and both had witnesses to my actions. My first altercation involving shot fired, lasted 13 minutes according to radio logs. The second, less than 4 seconds. Bigeasy talked about a lawyer. I agree, but also do not talk to even neighbors about the incident, they can get what you said all screwed up, and believe me the urge to talk with be overwhelming. I would talk to anyone that would listen I was so wired the first time. The second time an empty feeling, and I just wanted to lay down right there.  
Texas has the Castle Doctrine, which means: you don't have to retreat from the threat, you can use deadly force if you feel threatened, and you can use deadly force defending yours or someone else's life AND OR "PROPERTY". It is both legal in Texas, and has been done RECENTLY.
Do not unload your weapon. Leave it in the condition it was in, when the altercation ended, but if your able RELOAD IMMEDIATLY. Put it in a safe place INCLUDING holstering, or pocketing, INCASE OF RETALIATION from the perps arriving friend and or relatives, or accomplices. IT IS NOT OVER UNTIL THE POLICE ARRIVE. BE PREPARED TO DEFEND YOURSELF "AGAIN". When the police arrive, tell them where the gun is, even if it is own you person, and it can be dealt with then.
I would give a statement, and have, but I would do it with an attorney present.
In Texas the case WILL GO TO A GRAND JURY, but to date the Castle Doctrine has held firmly, with no adverse results.
A well know case in this State is "JOE HORN". Look it up. It is a classic case of the Castle Doctrine meaning what it says. Texans have had enough of the thieves and bullies, and we deal with them accordingly. As far as calling for an ambulance, I would advise the 911 operator that you have indeed shot someone, but I would let them make the decision on calling them an ambulance. You might get the bill, and the injured party has, and is getting what he deserved. Now this last sentence is good advice in my opinion, but I am rather hard when it comes to bullies and thieves.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline bubba

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simply stated, I prefer to be judged by 12 than carried by 6
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline tonygrz

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I'm also from Tx and have had a carry permit for several years.  When I took the class the question was asked as to what to say to the officers that respond.  From some of the self-defense shows and others on this site, don't say too much.  Tell the LEO that you were defending yourself and you want to sign a complaint against the perp.  And that you will gladly go to the police station the next day with your attorney and give a full report.  My instructor said that we need to give a full statement at the time of the shooting.  He said that the perp might have some friends around that will testify that the perp did nothing wrong and you have to clear that up immediately.  I don't agree.  You'll be very nervous and hyped.  You might say the wrong thing.  I hope I never have to defend myself, but if I do, I'll say as little as possible until I can calm down and get a change of underwear !!!
Life is great, don't screw it up with WORK !!!

Offline briarpatch

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I would suggest you listen to this. There are three parts to watch. I only have the first part.


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jhbJd2USUDI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jhbJd2USUDI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

Offline Empty Quiver

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Nothing you say will make the situation better, and the more you talk the worse it may become. A simple " I was attacked, could I please be allowed to speak with my lawyer now."
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline quasne.inc

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How does one find a decent lawyer before hand?  Do you look in the phone book?  The ones with the adds on tv seem like dirtbags.  How do you go about it?

Offline bilmac

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All good advice here. The less you say afterwards the better, it takes awhile for your brain to start working again after a high stress situation like a shooting. Put it into your brain that the justification for a shooting has to be that you were in fear for your life  or you feared for someone else's life. That should be about the only thing that comes out of your mouth in the moments afterward. Most cops are getting this same advice now and reasonable ones should recognize that you too know the rules and should respect that.

Offline His lordship.

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I appreciate the advice, after getting some replies I contacted an attorney online, he never responded.  I had a civil case in 2007 after being badly injured in a neglegence situation, and found most lawyers never responded to my calls, they say there are too many lawyers, well, only a few have any business sense.  I won the civil case, the guy who handled my case made money on it, he was smart.

It looks like I will have to contact one after any shooting, hopefully I won't have one, I have been a gun owner since 1976 and have never shot anyone, it looks remote, but I wanted to be set up in advance.  Kinda like having insurance on my house and car, you hope you never have to make the call, but you have a phone number if anything should happen.

Offline bilmac

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Being prepared is the best way to avoid trouble. Think things through ahead of time.

Offline mrussel

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I currently live in Texas and am waiting for the paper work to clear on the concealed handgun license that I applied for, do remember the old days in some of the North Eastern states that I read about, concerning using a gun for self defense.  Pretty scary for the defender. :o    

If I was to shoot an attacker, in my home, or on the street, what can I say to the police when reported?  I don't know an attorney, but our handgun teacher said to look for "The meanest looking lawyer in the phone book".  Do I put the pistol down when the police arrive, or unload it if it is used?  

From what I have read, it is rare to discharge a gun as the invader usually leaves when the opportunity for an easy mark is gone.  But when drugs or alcohol is used, people don't think rationally.

My teacher said we should carry a gun all the time, but I am not sure that is necessary.  He also talked about alternatives like a knife or pepper spray, however, the alternatives won't help if your attacker pulls a .38 cal. revolver.  

I know that most people here are not attorneys, but some are police officers.  Any good advice on procedure if something bad should happen?  I had read Massad Ayoob's book on using a handgun years ago.

Thanks.

Know your state laws on the use of lethal force. Follow them and dont try to push the limits. My personal opinion is,the laws in my state are really irrelevant. I'm going to use my gun only to protect the life of myself or my loved ones. I will comply with the law,but that's actually coincidental. Its probably a good idea to know the law in your state,but I think the best advice anywhere is,use your gun only if you have no other choice to protect a life,even if your state provides a broader interpretation.

 To find a lawyer call your state bar association. Most have a phone number for referrals.

 To the second question,no of course I dont. I have to go to the post office,and I fly on airplanes. I also could be arrested if I tried it at work. I carry where I reasonably can. Life involves risk. You cant eliminate it 100%. You could get hit by a car in the supermarket parking lot,but you still need to get your groceries. The point of carrying a gun is not to be 100% safe,its to minimize your risk as much as practical and that's something the people who insist that they need to be armed 100% of the time miss. I carry when I'm going to the store,but I DO stop at the store on the way home from work when I dont have a gun on me. Sometimes I have to go to a federal building or a courthouse. I say carry wherever you reasonably can. I'm personally NOT willing to stop living my life. Ill live with the risk that I cant eliminate. I'm not going to tell my family in California that I'm never going to visit them again because they dont recognize my concealed carry permit. In my opinion,that's the dividing line between being careful and being concerned for my safety and being a paranoid nutcase. I think of it this way,consider a woman that was raped. If she goes and gets a gun,carries it with her and is very careful of where she goes and who is around her,that's a very rational and reasonable reaction,if she buys a gun,quits her job,never leaves her house and has her groceries delivered becuase she is terrified that it will happen again if she ever sets foot outside her door,she needs professional help.

Offline SHOOTALL

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The idea is to have a gun when you need it . I carry every where legal to do so. It is a life style. I only fly when nessary for work seldom and a weapon is in the truck i drive to the airport waiting for me. I have crossed many states and been into Canada many times armed all trips. In all but one to Canada with a gun . Five other trips to Canada at least two guns were with me. I have traveled up and down the east coast also armed . I know I have been thru. states that would frown on such but I don't do things that draw attention. I don't frequent places where the police would feel a need to watch. I don't dress like or act like i have a gun. Truth be known I have carried a knife that in many states would be illegal as to length anyway. Been doing that since middle school.
 As for the rape victom it might depend on her neighborhood .
Bottom line if you want to tote in many cases you can be creative , like a 20 ga. 870 for sporting clays can go about anywhere . Call ahead for a shooting time at a club near where you go. Then cancel if you don't care to shoot you still have a weapon !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mrussel

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The idea is to have a gun when you need it . I carry every where legal to do so. It is a life style. I only fly when nessary for work seldom and a weapon is in the truck i drive to the airport waiting for me. I have crossed many states and been into Canada many times armed all trips. In all but one to Canada with a gun . Five other trips to Canada at least two guns were with me. I have traveled up and down the east coast also armed . I know I have been thru. states that would frown on such but I don't do things that draw attention. I don't frequent places where the police would feel a need to watch. I don't dress like or act like i have a gun. Truth be known I have carried a knife that in many states would be illegal as to length anyway. Been doing that since middle school.
 As for the rape victom it might depend on her neighborhood .
Bottom line if you want to tote in many cases you can be creative , like a 20 ga. 870 for sporting clays can go about anywhere . Call ahead for a shooting time at a club near where you go. Then cancel if you don't care to shoot you still have a weapon !

 I would just like to add that while I understand why you carry places where you may not be legally allowed and I cant tell you whats right for you,becuase your situation as is each of ours is unique,that's something I think each of us should carefully consider the ramifications vs possible benefits of.

 The benefits are that you may need it and it may save your life. Thats a pretty big benefit.  

The drawback is that you may get caught,and you may end up in a big and very expensive legal mess and perhaps even lose your carry permit in those places where you now CAN carry legally.

 The question then comes up,how likely is it that you will need it. The answer is that its very remote. The next question is,how likely is it that the police will catch you. Thats somewhat remote too,but I think in many cases its actually a bigger risk than needing it,at least it is for me,most of the time. If I were going someplace like Chicago,or to some of the places down on the border I might make a different calculation. What I personally recommend is not to think of it as a lifestyle thing you must do all the time. Take each situation into account. Whats the risk vs benefit. The chance of me being caught carrying in a post office is remote. The chance of needing it is even more remote (yes,there was a rash of disgruntled employees years ago). The penalties can be severe as it no longer is just a citation like a traffic ticket (actually,here,they CANNOT take your permit away for only a single infraction of carrying where you should not,but that might not be true with a federal firearms charge on your record) Its probably not a good idea. I dont go to the post office that much anyway,so its quite likely that I will never have a problem there my entire life. On the other hand,you cant have them in Churches. If I were going to a Church for some reason (I'm not religious at all,so I cant imagine why I would,but you never know) the possibility of needing a gun varies depending on where it is. If its in a bad neighborhood,it could be a considerable risk. The drawback is,if I'm caught I will be given a fine,and told not to do that again,and maybe warned if I do it again my permit will be revoked,but they cant revoke it for one infraction. Its also very unlikely I will be caught. I'm probably going to carry it there.

 In other states,there is something additional at issue. Gun politics. As more and more states go "shall issue" or even permitless like Arizona,it becomes harder and harder for the gun control people to make their wide eyed, arguments that if permits are issue "the streets will run red". Instead of the argument that it would "turn into dodge city" ,the argument becomes Ohio,and Utah,and Colorado and Nevada and most of the other states do it and its fine and there are very very few problems and vastly more benefits than drawbacks. Any time someone from out of state with an out of state permit is caught in for instance,California with a concealed handgun,they just made it harder for the people that live there. The argument then becomes "See how you cant trust these nut cases who think they have to carry a gun everywhere. They wont follow the law in California because ,like most criminals they feel and entitlement to their criminal behavior. If we give out permits,we are just enabling more of the same." It creates the impression that we CANT be trusted to follow the law. We need to create the impression that we CAN be trusted and keep hammering home the message that those of us who have permits are the ones who CHOOSE to follow the law and the ones to worry about are the criminals who will carry guns anyway,wont get permits,and choose,by the very nature of what they are,to NOT follow the law.

 As it sits now,we are actually winning this fight. In fact, if most states have concealed carry and there is a vast body of evidence to suggest that there are few problems with it. Whats happening,slowly is that we are changing the anti-gun culture in this country. Once it comes to the day when I can walk into a restaurant in a big city in California (its already like that in some places) with an openly displayed gun and the only looks I get are people checking out my awesome Elk grips and the only questions I get are where I got them, we HAVE one and most of the gun control laws will fall.  The day might even come when the supreme court steps in and decides its protected under the second amendment. Remember,they consider this a balancing act where they have to balance the protections of the second amendment against the rights of the states to regulate arms to protect the public. At the far extreme,they are not going to allow me to have a nuclear tipped medium range ballistic missile parked on truck on my drive way. On the other hand,I have the right to have a handgun in my home for self defense. If it can be shown that carry permits are not causing problems in all the states where they are issued,its not much of a stretch that some future court may decide that carrying a gun for self defense does not just apply to your home,but to your person,wherever you may be. Ill step down from my soap box now.

Offline torpedoman

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The only thing you ever say to the police if you are being questioned is " I want a lawyer". No matter what they say after that make no reply until you have a lawyer.
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline S.S.

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Now I have to interject a bit of my 2cts worth here,
Finding a lawyer before the fact may look a bit like
pre-meditation. And not answering questions from an officer may look
like you are hiding something. The right to remain silent is an ever present
fact, but it may not always be a good idea. Without going into any detail,
I found that Facts don't change. The jury heard what the first responder
did and that was exactly what happened. The moment you make yourself look
guilty is when a hard fight begins.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline mrussel

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Now I have to interject a bit of my 2cts worth here,
Finding a lawyer before the fact may look a bit like
pre-meditation. And not answering questions from an officer may look
like you are hiding something. The right to remain silent is an ever present
fact, but it may not always be a good idea. Without going into any detail,
I found that Facts don't change. The jury heard what the first responder
did and that was exactly what happened. The moment you make yourself look
guilty is when a hard fight begins.

Knowing the name of a good lawyer is always a good idea. As for being completely evasive silent,that might make them suspicious,but you want to keep statements to a minimum.

Offline Spirithawk

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I intend to say two things only. 1) " I was in fear for my life" 2) We'll talk after I talk to my attorney. I think all conceal carry classes should point out the need and give advice on finding an attorney familiar with self defense shootings. A list of local such attornies would be a nice addition to every CCW class.

Offline torpedoman

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Now I have to interject a bit of my 2cts worth here,
Finding a lawyer before the fact may look a bit like
pre-meditation. And not answering questions from an officer may look
like you are hiding something. The right to remain silent is an ever present
fact, but it may not always be a good idea. Without going into any detail,
I found that Facts don't change. The jury heard what the first responder
did and that was exactly what happened. The moment you make yourself look
guilty is when a hard fight begins.

Thats the cops favorite line to get you to say something they can twist to their advantage, Ask anyone who has ever been questioned.
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline Mohawk

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Re: If force is used, what can you say to the police? Do you carry all the time
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2010, 05:16:25 PM »
SAY NOTHING

Offline SHOOTALL

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The idea is to have a gun when you need it . I carry every where legal to do so. It is a life style. I only fly when nessary for work seldom and a weapon is in the truck i drive to the airport waiting for me. I have crossed many states and been into Canada many times armed all trips. In all but one to Canada with a gun . Five other trips to Canada at least two guns were with me. I have traveled up and down the east coast also armed . I know I have been thru. states that would frown on such but I don't do things that draw attention. I don't frequent places where the police would feel a need to watch. I don't dress like or act like i have a gun. Truth be known I have carried a knife that in many states would be illegal as to length anyway. Been doing that since middle school.
 As for the rape victom it might depend on her neighborhood .
Bottom line if you want to tote in many cases you can be creative , like a 20 ga. 870 for sporting clays can go about anywhere . Call ahead for a shooting time at a club near where you go. Then cancel if you don't care to shoot you still have a weapon !

 I would just like to add that while I understand why you carry places where you may not be legally allowed and I cant tell you whats right for you,becuase your situation as is each of ours is unique,that's something I think each of us should carefully consider the ramifications vs possible benefits of.

 The benefits are that you may need it and it may save your life. Thats a pretty big benefit.  

The drawback is that you may get caught,and you may end up in a big and very expensive legal mess and perhaps even lose your carry permit in those places where you now CAN carry legally.

 The question then comes up,how likely is it that you will need it. The answer is that its very remote. The next question is,how likely is it that the police will catch you. Thats somewhat remote too,but I think in many cases its actually a bigger risk than needing it,at least it is for me,most of the time. If I were going someplace like Chicago,or to some of the places down on the border I might make a different calculation. What I personally recommend is not to think of it as a lifestyle thing you must do all the time. Take each situation into account. Whats the risk vs benefit. The chance of me being caught carrying in a post office is remote. The chance of needing it is even more remote (yes,there was a rash of disgruntled employees years ago). The penalties can be severe as it no longer is just a citation like a traffic ticket (actually,here,they CANNOT take your permit away for only a single infraction of carrying where you should not,but that might not be true with a federal firearms charge on your record) Its probably not a good idea. I dont go to the post office that much anyway,so its quite likely that I will never have a problem there my entire life. On the other hand,you cant have them in Churches. If I were going to a Church for some reason (I'm not religious at all,so I cant imagine why I would,but you never know) the possibility of needing a gun varies depending on where it is. If its in a bad neighborhood,it could be a considerable risk. The drawback is,if I'm caught I will be given a fine,and told not to do that again,and maybe warned if I do it again my permit will be revoked,but they cant revoke it for one infraction. Its also very unlikely I will be caught. I'm probably going to carry it there.

 In other states,there is something additional at issue. Gun politics. As more and more states go "shall issue" or even permitless like Arizona,it becomes harder and harder for the gun control people to make their wide eyed, arguments that if permits are issue "the streets will run red". Instead of the argument that it would "turn into dodge city" ,the argument becomes Ohio,and Utah,and Colorado and Nevada and most of the other states do it and its fine and there are very very few problems and vastly more benefits than drawbacks. Any time someone from out of state with an out of state permit is caught in for instance,California with a concealed handgun,they just made it harder for the people that live there. The argument then becomes "See how you cant trust these nut cases who think they have to carry a gun everywhere. They wont follow the law in California because ,like most criminals they feel and entitlement to their criminal behavior. If we give out permits,we are just enabling more of the same." It creates the impression that we CANT be trusted to follow the law. We need to create the impression that we CAN be trusted and keep hammering home the message that those of us who have permits are the ones who CHOOSE to follow the law and the ones to worry about are the criminals who will carry guns anyway,wont get permits,and choose,by the very nature of what they are,to NOT follow the law.

 As it sits now,we are actually winning this fight. In fact, if most states have concealed carry and there is a vast body of evidence to suggest that there are few problems with it. Whats happening,slowly is that we are changing the anti-gun culture in this country. Once it comes to the day when I can walk into a restaurant in a big city in California (its already like that in some places) with an openly displayed gun and the only looks I get are people checking out my awesome Elk grips and the only questions I get are where I got them, we HAVE one and most of the gun control laws will fall.  The day might even come when the supreme court steps in and decides its protected under the second amendment. Remember,they consider this a balancing act where they have to balance the protections of the second amendment against the rights of the states to regulate arms to protect the public. At the far extreme,they are not going to allow me to have a nuclear tipped medium range ballistic missile parked on truck on my drive way. On the other hand,I have the right to have a handgun in my home for self defense. If it can be shown that carry permits are not causing problems in all the states where they are issued,its not much of a stretch that some future court may decide that carrying a gun for self defense does not just apply to your home,but to your person,wherever you may be. Ill step down from my soap box now.
Never said i was illegal other than a knife. In canada i had a permit for my weapon and to buy ammo. When traveling you can carry a gun if it is legal to have at the point where you start your trip and where you end your trip. But I have been told by police officers to tote a gun in certian areas of our city . As far as being checked it would depend on location . As far as far as needing it also the location.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !