Author Topic: Old Cannon  (Read 2773 times)

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Offline Uncle Dave

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Old Cannon
« on: October 27, 2010, 04:51:27 PM »
I have some friends who own a grass-strip airfield outside of town.  They have a business that repairs sailplanes, and they have a bunch of prop planes that they have built.  They even made and repaired hot air balloons when they were popular back in the 60s & 70s.  I was out there this evening to do some work on the brass fittings that I will use on my mortar build.  As I was getting ready to leave, they mentioned that had a cast iron cannon that their grandfather had built back in the 1950's.  It took them a bit of time to find it in the warehouse, but there it was tucked under a staircase.  Design looked to be that of a deck gun.  The lighting in the room wasn't perfect, so I didn't get that good of a look at it.  I did feel down the barrel and it appeared by touch to be about a 3 to 3.5 inches in diameter.  They said they haven't touched it off in years, but possibly could roll it out early next week if I wanted to get a better look.

I've taken a pretty good look at the forum here, and I'm not so sure I want to fire a cast iron cannon that isn't lined.  What do you guys think; would this thing be safe?

Offline Double D

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2010, 05:01:57 PM »
Looking at it in the dark was it cast iron?  You need to look it over in the light and see what they really have

Offline dan610324

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2010, 06:24:57 PM »
its difficult to say yes or no on that question
depends first on the wall diameter and quality of the casting ,
cast iron barrels should hold minimum 1.25 times the bore diameter in wall thickness to be safe .
so a 3 inch bore should be minimum 10.5 inch in the breech area .
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2010, 07:43:28 PM »
Being that it was made back in the 1950's most likely it is made of a modern steel rather than cast iron,

get some photo's when it's in daylight it'll be interesting to see what they have.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2010, 01:47:24 AM »
It's  like Christmas - we can hardly wait to see the pictures!

 ;D
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Uncle Dave

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2010, 01:44:50 PM »
I stopped by this afternoon after work, and we pulled it out into the open.  It is cast iron, and the bore appears to be about 2.5 inches.  Will take a rule up with me to take some measurements this evening.  Looked real hard for some sort of markings that identified the mfg, but to no avail.

Best part of the deal, is that they are going to let me take possession of it for a couple of weeks.  I'll clean it up, reapply some paint - and of course touch it off a few times.

Pics on the way, hopefully this evening.

Offline Uncle Dave

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2010, 06:34:41 PM »
Here is a couple of pics of the cannon.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 03:04:54 AM »
Nice looking piece when you said the grandfather built it I figured it would be steel,
he must of built the carriage, can you tell if the tube is lined?
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Double D

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 08:25:22 AM »
Looks like a nice piece.  It appears to be a casting.  Do a through examination before firing.  Should have a liner for increased safety. If it doesn't you should consider lining before firing.

Offline Uncle Dave

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2010, 11:21:15 AM »
No lining in the barrel.

Where would one send a canon out to be lined?

And to clarify, got the full story last night.  "Dad" built a 45' long steel sailboat way back in the day.  Somewhere out on the Great Lakes, at some unknown location, he came across this canon.  Being fully impressed, he bought it.  The family used to fire it off every year for special events and the like.  Until that is, then the price of black powder went through the roof (this happen in the 70's?).

Apparently, in their youth, the sons loaded this thing to the hilt on many occasions.  Knowing what they know now, they say that they were rather foolish in their powder loads.

I'm going to clean it up and take it down to camp next weekend.  We'll touch it off a few times, but I'm not interested in a full load without it being lined.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2010, 12:41:30 PM »
What's the length of the barrel (muzzle to back of cascable)?
GG
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2010, 02:27:27 PM »
That looks real nice UD , I'd take good care of that baby .

Gary

ETA I wouldn't 'clean it up' at all untill you know what you have . ;)
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Double D

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2010, 04:15:46 PM »
Based on the two picture you posted it appears to be a casting.  If it is it needs a liner.

Any  competent Machine shop could do the machining and installation, if such a shop were provided with the proper information on how to construct a liner.

Matt Swiitlik's book The More  Complete Cannoneer now out of  print has detailed instructions on how to construct and secure a barrel liner.  Contact Switlik, at http://www.museumandcollector.com/ and ask if he will provide a reprint of his chapter on barrel liners.

No matter what  it's history without learning a lot more about what it is made of I would not shot it...yet. This is a nice looking piece and deserves restoration and resurrection and firing.  But unless it is properly constructed it is a time bomb.  Until the proper precautions are taken at minumum you may destroy a very nice looking piece, at worse some one can die.

Melodramatic?  No, concerned, yes.   Every year here on this board we publish reports of cannon accident, usually with deaths involved.  Some the guns involved are home made contraptions made of nothing more than pieces of pipe and others are nice looking pieces like this.  One statement that is almost universally quoted in every one of these accidents is "we have fired this before for years and never had a problem"

No matter how small a load you use in the cannon there were will be pressure...don't take the chance.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2010, 04:41:01 PM »
Once lined it should also have the touch hole bushed this will prevent corrosion between the iron vent and liner
when swabbed or cleaned with water.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Zulu

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2010, 04:43:33 AM »
I believe this barrel is an old Dixie Gun Works carronade.
You can see a small picture at this Dixie Gun Works address

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=1690

The gun in that picture is 40 1/2" long but I have a 1998 Dixie catalog that offers the same barrel with a 27" length.  It says it has a 1/4" seamless liner with a 1 1/2" bore.
The barrel in the above picture could be 27" long.  It looks identical to the barrel pictured in my catalog.
Zulu

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Offline Double D

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2010, 05:04:25 AM »
Good research Zulu!!! Are you challenging BoomJ for the Researcher title, he will be tough to beat!

Offline Uncle Dave

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2010, 05:05:18 AM »
I believe this barrel is an old Dixie Gun Works carronade.
You can see a small picture at this Dixie Gun Works address

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=1690

The gun in that picture is 40 1/2" long but I have a 1998 Dixie catalog that offers the same barrel with a 27" length.  It says it has a 1/4" seamless liner with a 1 1/2" bore.
The barrel in the above picture could be 27" long.  It looks identical to the barrel pictured in my catalog.
Zulu



That would be too cool!  I'll contact them - send some pics.  The barrel is not lined, which I doubt they would have done way back in the past.  Perhaps they can steer me to a location on the barrel where there is an official ID mark, or some other casting artifact that would positively ID it as one of their early guns.



Wow!  I've only been a member of the site for a short time, and I've had the pleasure of scrolling through many years of past posts.  You folks are very impressive with regards to experience and knowledge.

Proud to be aboard!

Offline Zulu

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2010, 05:53:44 AM »
Good research Zulu!!! Are you challenging BoomJ for the Researcher title, he will be tough to beat!

No challenge to BoomJ.
He is the King.
Zulu
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www.jmelledge.com

Offline Double D

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2010, 08:05:26 AM »
Good research Zulu!!! Are you challenging BoomJ for the Researcher title, he will be tough to beat!

No challenge to BoomJ.
He is the King.
Zulu

Agreed he is good!!!

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2010, 12:03:18 PM »
BRAVO, Zulu!



I believe this barrel is an old Dixie Gun Works carronade.
You can see a small picture at this Dixie Gun Works address

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=1690

The gun in that picture is 40 1/2" long but I have a 1998 Dixie catalog that offers the same barrel with a 27" length.  It says it has a 1/4" seamless liner with a 1 1/2" bore.
The barrel in the above picture could be 27" long.  It looks identical to the barrel pictured in my catalog.
Zulu


Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline lendi

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2010, 12:19:47 PM »
I believe that the Dixie Gun Works barrell was manufactured by Hern Iron Works.  I have made several carriages for that barrell.
lendi

Offline partsproduction

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2010, 12:20:46 PM »
 Please instruct me as to why the bore would have to be lined, many thousands of cast iron cannons were employed without liners, and before any steel of worthy quality was available. I know that many of them blew up, but it would seem to me that if loads were kept below a certain safe level it would not automatically be a bomb a-waiting. The barrel could be proofed under ground safely if there were any doubt.
 It would seem to me that a liner brings it's own problems, corrosion between it and the base metal of the tube mainly. I can also see the advantages if done right.
 I gather that casting a good quality tube that would survive thousands of firings might be an art that most foundries wouldn't know about, I think I'd be more worried about establishing a safe load, making sure the bore had no holes in it for embers to hide in etc.

 Is that the main problem? Porosity of the internal surfaces? A liner would have to be made with great care as well, as there are chances for porosity in the end cap.

 Thanks for bearing with an ignorant newbie.  ;D

Offline Double D

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2010, 08:05:36 PM »
Cast Iron is brittle and has a long history of failure in cannons.  It has low tensile strength and does not stretch.  Failures are sudden.  It often contains voids and defects. 



This myth that you can keep loads low and be safe is a misleading myth.  Pressure  is still present. A sharp blow can fracture cast iron.

Do you know what pressures you need to develop in order to proof such barrel?  Proof testing is a misunderstood concept.  It is a very controlled testing method, usuallly at 125% of working pressure.

If you refer to our sticky at the top of the forum called Safe  Load's you will find some excerpts from two national cannon shooting organizations reference the standards they have established for safe shooting of black powder cannons, including standards for building and installing barrel liners and vent liners. They require all new built guns and all old guns that fail inspection to have liners.

Guns with liners require vent liners so there is an unbroken path from bore to outside barrel so fouling doesn't get blown between liner and barrle.

In my previous post I referred to Switlik's book and gave you a reference to contact him for a copy of chapter from his book on barrel liners construction and installation.  Suggest you do that and you will find your questions answered.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2010, 11:11:56 PM »
Hey DD & Zulu, I appreciate the compliments. 

Welcome to the board, Partsproduction!
Double D has already covered it in two posts, but I'd like to add that those thousands of cast iron cannons that were used through history were also responsible for many deaths and injuries caused to the crews that manned them, and this includes the cast iron cannons used in our Civil War and also beyond that era. John Dahlgren, Robert Parrott, John Brooke and Thomas Rodman are the well-known names of cast iron cannon designers whose models were used in the CW, and they did their best to come up with designs and casting processes that made their guns safer, but every one of these men knew the limitations and dangers involved in using this material to make cannons.
There was a CW field cannon known (among other designations) as a '3-inch ordnance rifle', and it was made using a new wrought iron manufacturing process that resulted in a very strong dependable cannon (only one is known to have burst in service), and it's a well known fact that artillerymen of both the North and South (the CSA captured and used many of these cannons) had high praise for this model; it is also known that a good part of this high regard wasn't concerned with how deadly accurate these guns were against the enemy, but the fact that they felt confident in their own safety when firing them, and I sure can't find any fault with their feelings.
The bottom line to me is that we have modern steels that are undeniably superior to any type of cast iron; so why take an unnecessary chance in firing an unlined iron cannon?   
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2010, 01:42:21 AM »
I think you ansvered your own question in the same post
even if its just a small chance that anything will happened I think its reason enough to line it .

do you want your son or grandson to be killed by a cannon that you "forgot" to line in 20 or 40 years time ??
yeah you might be burried and forgotten then , but your cannon will most probably survive much longer than you do .

when a cannon blow up almost all people come with the same comment , "but we have used it for many years before without anything happened"

the more you use it the closer you come to a failure

cast iron is hard and brittle and the hammering of the explosions makes it just harder and harder until it becomes so brittle that it cant handle the pressure any more . it might need 100 shots or maybe 10 000 , you never know when its happening .

so why gamble with your or someone else life when it isnt neccesary ??


cast iron is so hard and brittle so when it explodes it will send shrapnell all over the place ,
bronze is much more forgiving in a failure , it will most often just open up along the bore without spreading any shrapnell .
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2010, 03:05:43 AM »
partsproduction -

WELCOME tothe board!

In the 1870's or there abouts mild steel revolutionized the cannon industry.  It had strength and great resistance to cracking after repeated firings.  Hence liners of SEAMLESS tubing are used in many cannons.  Seamless so the products of combustion don't work themselves into the porosity of steel (where welded) and cause latent failures.

We had a bad batch of D2 once that was used to make several 8" diameter dies for the 50 ton presses.  After only a dozen pressings there were cracks all the way through - less dramatic than if it were a cannon, but effect made boat anchors of precision dies.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Uncle Dave

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2010, 03:26:14 AM »
I shared the info I have gathered from this thread with the owners of the canon.  They have made the decision to modify it so that it can never be fired again.  In the process, they will disassemble the canon and restore it to as near original condition as they can.  In the end, they will put it on display in their shop.

Offline Double D

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2010, 03:37:56 AM »
I shared the info I have gathered from this thread with the owners of the canon.  They have made the decision to modify it so that it can never be fired again.  In the process, they will disassemble the canon and restore it to as near original condition as they can.  In the end, they will put it on display in their shop.

That's sad becasue it could be easily lined and made to fire and become a valuable display piece.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2010, 06:29:57 AM »
Guys..... IF this is a Dixie/Hern tube it is lined  read the Dixie info on the tube they sold, I think a closer look at the muzzle
is needed maybe if the paint were stripped off the line of the tube could be spotted against the cast iron.
there may be no reason to modify it so it can not shoot.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Double D

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Re: Old Cannon
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2010, 07:03:33 AM »
good point  Kabar!!!