boat howitzer ammo boxes

[navygunner]

Gentleman,
  I've had had a request for the dimensions of the ammo boxes that were becketed to the Dalhgren boat howitzers. Can anybody help?


Thanks,
Geo Dailey
USNLP

[Cannoneer]

NG,
Antique Ordnance Publishers has two sets of plans for Dahlgren boat howitzers mounted on the landing carriage; one for the light 12-pounder and one for the heavy 12-pdr. The descriptions on their sheet don't mention the ammunition chests, but it might be worth the effort to enquire by email.

[navygunner]

Thanks Boom J,
    I do believe you're right I contacted my USNLP/NMLHA skipper and he said he had the dimensions.

geo

[navygunner]

The dimensions were listed in the Naval Ordnance Instructions for 1864. See attachment for the light howitzer.

[Zulu]

Do you know what it looked like?  I like ammunition chests!
Zulu

[navygunner]

Zulu,
   No!!! I haven't been able to find any pictures of them. Hoping somebody on the board might have some. Charlie's Boatworks a USNLP member wants to build some but the problem is no pictures. He's suggesting rope handles but that's suspect to me since most items going into the boats that were perishable or suseptable to moisture were placed in spare magazine powder tanks. I feel fixed ammo in a box with 3/4 inch holes in the sides could subject the powder to wetting. Any help out there.

Geo. Dailey
U S Naval Landing Party

[KABAR2]

Late last year Cannonmn had posted a period photo of a boat howitzer
that showed the boxes and the cassion also they looked like they were
iron mounted as far as the handles. when I have time I'll do a search and
see if I can find the photo.

[Zulu]

Late last year Cannonmn had posted a period photo of a boat howitzer
that showed the boxes and the cassion also they looked like they were
iron mounted as far as the handles. when I have time I'll do a search and
see if I can find the photo.

Found it!
Zulu

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,174885.msg1098827356.html#msg1098827356

[KABAR2]

Thanks Zulu,

I guess that's not much help.... no side boxes on the gun.

[Cannoneer]

The instructions given by J.A. Dahlgren in the early U.S. Navy boat howitzer manuals, call for ammunition boxes to be slung under and lashed to the axle bed of the iron field carriage.
System Of Boat Armament In The United States Navy: Reported To Commodore Charles Morris, Chief Of Bureau Of Ordnance And Hydrography. By J.A. DAHLGREN Assistant Inspector Of Ordnance (In Charge Of Experimental Department.) Philadelphia: Printed By A. Hart, 126 Chestnut Street. 1852, P. 27. Dahlgren Boat Howitzer



Photo by Andrew Trehubenko taken at the Maritime Industry Museum, Fort Schuyler, the Bronx, NY


This U.S. Navy instruction book published in 1860 still has the boxes lashed under the axle, but it also relates some interesting information about securing two field carriages together, and carrying the ammunition boxes on spars attached above the axles.
Ordnance instructions for the United States Navy, U.S. Navy Dept. Bureau of Ordnance, John Adolphus Bernard Dahlgren, Navy Dept, Washington: George W. Bowman, Public Printer, 1860: see p. 109
http://books.google.com/books?id=OEhUZmgQ4GIC&dq=John%20A.%20Dahlgren%20book%20on%20Boat%20Howitzers&lr=&pg=PA109&output=text
"NOTES ON THE USE OF BOAT HOWITZERS. 109
356. Field Carriage.—In order to moderate the recoil on smooth ground, take out the axle or pin of the trail wheel and turn the wheel up on the trail.
In using the howitzer on shore one or two double boxes of ammunition may be lashed under the axle of the field carriage. When more than a single piece is landed it may be found convenient to secure the trail of one field carriage to the axle of another, and then, by means of pieces of stuff, or boat's spars, secured from axle to axle, to place the ammunition boxes, provisions, pouches, &c., upon them. "
Page 144 of this book shows a table that gives the same measurements of the ammunition boxes as the table that navygunner posted (viewed from the top these ammo boxes would be almost square).

Drawing showing the boxes stacked and lashed on spars resting upon the axles, with the implements stored in the bores.



Instruction For Naval Light Artillery, Afloat And Ashore. Prepared And Arranged For The U.S. Naval Academy, By William H. Parker, Lieut. U.S.N., Second Edition, Revised By Lieut. S. B. Luce, U.S.N., New York: D. Van Nostrand, 192 Broadway. 1863. See p. 14
http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924030896942#page/n0/mode/1up
Page 14: "Two boxes of ammunition will be carried on top of the axle-tree, and each man, with the exception of Nos. 1 and 3, will carry one round in his pouch."
I don't know the exact timeline of when this boat howitzer field carriage improvement came about, but at least by 1863 a rack was designed to be mounted above the axle-tree on the carriage, and it would hold the ammunition chest with two upright pins that fit into the bottom of the chest.

Photo is from the Civil War website "To the Sound of the Guns", markerhunter.wordpress.com



A Text-Book Of Naval Ordnance And Gunnery. Prepared For The Use Of The Cadet Midshipmen At The United States Naval Academy. By A. P. Cooke, Commander, U.S.N. Second Edition Revised And Enlarged. Volume II. New York: John Wiley & Sons 15 Astor Place. 1880. See pp. 391-392, and Fig. 255 on p. 392 (a drawing of a Dahlgren boat howitzer on a field carriage carrying two ammunition chests).
http://www.archive.org/details/textbookofnavalo02cookuoft
"The Field-carriage ashore. — As it is designed to operate independently of a limber, light composition frames, having pins projecting upward, are attached to the trail and axle on each side, on which the ammunition-boxes rest. Their bottoms are fitted with metal sockets for the projecting pins of the frames."




Edit: Changed the publication date on the first book listed (System Of Boat Armament In The United States Navy) from 1856 to 1852, and added a link.

[navygunner]

Thanks BoomJ,
     I pretty much read the same thing in the 60 & 64 Ord inst. The problem is no pictures seem to exist as to what the boxes looked like with the square dimensions. I think the best bet will be to look at the carriage plans and build the boxes to fit. The picture shows rope beckets through wooden handles so that would eliminate the worry about moisture getting in.

geo

[Cannoneer]

To me there seems to be a problem involved with assuming that it was the square ammunition storage boxes that were originally intended to be mounted on the bronze racks that were designed (at a later date) to carry ammunition boxes on top of the axles of the boat howitzer field carriages.
The only drawing that I've ever seen, shows the more familiar looking rectangular shaped ammunition chests, mounted on a frame that is attached to the axles of the landing carriage; isn't it possible, or perhaps even probable that that's the type of ammunition box that was manufactured to fit the frames from the beginning of their use? From reading the naval ordnance literature it seems like these racks (referred to as frames and supports in the manuals) were first used in the early 60's, and I can find period photos showing boat howitzer carriages with the frames above the axles, but unfortunately none of them are carrying the ammunition boxes.

[Zulu]

I stumbled across these pictures while looking at the Naval Historical Center website.  They are from the USS Enterprise.  The ammo chest appear to be mounted on a boat howitzer carriage but the barrel dosen't look like one.  Note the rear carriage wheel in the officer's picture.
What do you think?
Zulu

[Cannoneer]

Zulu,

I looked it up and that incarnation of the USS Enterprise would be a steam powered sloop-of-war commisioned in 1877, so it's very possible that they could be there, because the 12-pdr Dahlgren BH's were in use into the 80's, but none of the carriages shown in those pictures are for the Dahlgren BH, nor is the howitzer shown.
In the first picture ("Rally on the Flag") in the lower left corner can be seen a US Navy 3-inch breechloading rifle of 350 lbs., which is the cannon that superceded the Dahlgren boat howitzer.

[Zulu]

Here is the site where the pictures came from.
Zulu
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-e/entrp5.htm

[Max Caliber]

Here is a picture of the gun that Boom J mentioned in his last post. The boxes look a bit different than the ones shown in Zulu's photos and the mounting appears to be different.



Maxphoto

[Cannoneer]

Max,

I made no comment on the empty carriage shown in the “Rally on the Flag” photo being the land carriage for the Navy 3-inch BLR, because upon first viewing the photo my impression was that it is the same carriage that is seen mounted by a Gatling gun attached to a yoke in the “Sword Exercise” photo. After doing a little investigating, I feel even stronger that my first impressions about that carriage were correct.

I do think that it’s more than possible that the carriage which can be seen behind the “Officers” in the second photo that Zulu posted could be the field carriage for the rifled cannon, but I’ll admit that my reasons for thinking so might be considered slightly speculative. The hub of the wheel is definitely made of bronze, and it has the same configuration as the hubs do on the wheels that can be seen in pictures displaying the proper carriage for the cannon (the nave of the Gatling gun carriage’s wheel is different); the trail also seems to have the right look.

[Cannoneer]

I suppose the logical thing to have done, would have been to first investigate the site that Zulu posted a link to, but then again; why do things the easy way when doing them the hard way builds character? I just got done looking at the photos on the NHC site, and here are two photos that go a long way in making what I said in the preceding post a little clearer. 

Naval Historical Center - Photo - 3-Inch Rifle In Action


NHC - Photo - Gatling Gun In Action

[Max Caliber]

Right on Boom J. Excellent research as usual. I particularly like the picture "3-inch rifle in action". That's about as close to a live action shot as one can get. Someone needs to do a book on these little landing guns, of which there were many types in the US service over the years.

[Cannoneer]

Thanks, Max. I agree with you, I wish there were more information about these guns (including photos and drawings) that was readily accessible on the net. A text book of naval ordnance and gunnery 1880

[Double D]

Did you contact AOP  and see what they have?

[Cannoneer]

Douglas,
No, I haven't called them. This U.S. Navy 3-inch rifle is post Civil War; does AOP carry any drawings for artillery that came into existence after the CW?

Zulu,
I've looked at a lot of these NHHC 'U.S. Navy Ships' pages before, but I have never seen this one, and this one's a good one. The link you posted also contains a very clear picture of an XI-inch Dahlgren on a pivot carriage that I was glad to see for the first time.

Max,
Here's a photo that shows the "boat carriage" for the Navy 3-inch rifle. I had never seen, read nor heard anything about a boat carriage for this cannon before. When I saw the rifle in the 1st photo that Zulu posted I figured that it must be mounted on some kind of small low truck carriage that had been made up for it, but I didn't figure that it would have a dedicated front pivot sliding carriage (see the taversing wheels on the rear of the carriage).

NHHC archive photo


Company of Military Historians Forum - photo posted by John Morris - photo taken by James G. Schoenung at CannonRest.


Another thing that kind of surprised me is how small the cannon and field carriage actually are; the "3-Inch Rifle In Action" photo that shows crewman manning the rifle serves to demonstrate this.

[Max Caliber]

Boom J,

The 3-inch BLR on a boat carriage is news to me. Would love to see some detailed pictures or drawings of the carriage. The landing carriage I saw at the old Quantico Marine Corps Museum had wheels of around 36 inches tall, which gave it a low center of gravity, which probably was by design.