Rifled Musket accuracy

[RustyJr]

Does anyone have any experiance with the Civil War era reproduction muskets.  I wouldnt mind purchasing one to use for deer hunting but im unsure as to what kind of accuracy to expect.  Any information woud be appreciated.

    Thanks,
         RustyJr

[coyotejoe]

I once had one of the excellent Parker/Hale two band muskets which could hold a carefully developed Minie ball load into 3" at 100 yards and almost as good with patched balls. I now have a Zouave from which I've fired only patched balls. The Zouave is nowhere near the quality of the Parker/Hale but still throws a .570" ball with suitable accuracy for elk hunting. It is generally quite easy to get accuracy with a patched ball and that is much better than a minie for hunting because you can load them up to 1300-1400 fps and a decent 100 yard trajectory without dislocating your shoulder. Getting accuracy from a minie can be challenging and often requires lots of experimentation and testing. The minie must be a snug fit to the bore, no more than .001" under bore size to shoot accurately. That can get into custom molds and sizing dies. Then too, casting perfect minies is much more difficult than casting balls. Once you have the perfect minie, only then can you start working out the perfect powder charge. The old Civil War standard load was 60 grains of 2f and that gives a 500 grain minie less than 1000 fps and a softball trajectory which can require different holds for shots even inside 75 yards. Many of the competition shooters load even lighter, say like 45 grains and velocity is so lame it requires a different hold between 25 and 50 yards, not at all good for hunting. Then too, casting minies takes almost twice as much lead as roundballs and they can lead the bore, where as a patched ball will not. So, for all of those reasons I much prefer patched balls for hunting. Lastly, the musket is also a rather heavy rifle to carry very far when hunting and the sights are not the best.

[groundhog107]

I have two Civil war Repros in my aresenal.  One is a 53 Enfield and the other a Cook and Brothers Carbine in 58 caliber.  I have taken a few deer with the Cook and I have to agree with the previous poster that the bullet fit is critical.  For my Cook to shoot well, I had to have a very tight fitting bullet that required cleaning between shots.  I shot the Mini in mine and never patched ball.

[mcwoodduck]

I have a replica Zuave in 58 and had problems trying to make light loads.
But 65-70 grains equal in Black (I shoot Pyrodex) and a 525 grain buffalo bore bullet was grouping at 1.5 to 2" at 100 yards of the bench.
Minute of deer if you ask me.
I think If I tried to play with it more and find some civil war type (other than the originals I have on the book shelf) to shoot I may be able to tighten up that group.

[navygunner]

Coyote,
   I've just picked up an A Zoli zuoave carbine and plan on patched ball. With your .570 what patch are you using ?
NG

[mcwoodduck]

Coyote,
   I've just picked up an A Zoli zuoave carbine and plan on patched ball. With your .570 what patch are you using ?
NG

That is what I have.
I had some problems making light round ball loads.
but I used standard pillow tick and it loaded ok.

[coyotejoe]

Yep, .570 ball and pillow ticking over 80 grains 2f Goex. That shoots flat enough to use one sight from the muzzle out to 100 yards or just a bit more.

[navygunner]

McWooduck and Coyote thanks for the responses. I like roundball but also have used conicals might play around with some Ball-ets in 58 cal.

NG

[coyotejoe]

The downside of conicals for hunting is that in .58 caliber they tend to be rather heavy and if you load them up fast enough to get a reasonably flat trajectory for hunting then recoil becomes pretty nasty. Also the conical must fit the bore rather closely both for accuracy and to avoid having the bullet move forward, off the powder charge when carried for a while. I'm probably more recoil sensitive than many folks but to me a 500 grain minie ball over 100 grains of 2f just flat hurts and even at that it only runs about 1000 fps. A .570 ball runs about 275 grains and that seems like plenty for American game. Now if you're talking Africa, Val Forget took an elephant with a .58 caliber 610 grain minie over 180 grains of 3f. That load is definitely not recommended for a Zouave!

[Pat/Rick]

Wasn't Val Forgett using the Navy Arms "Buffalo Hunter" model for that hunt? That was  a "sporterized" Zouve. That is IIRC anyway. I used to have the BP book with the article, I may have confused it with another, my memory can be spotty at times.   

[mcwoodduck]

The downside of conicals for hunting is that in .58 caliber they tend to be rather heavy and if you load them up fast enough to get a reasonably flat trajectory for hunting then recoil becomes pretty nasty. Also the conical must fit the bore rather closely both for accuracy and to avoid having the bullet move forward, off the powder charge when carried for a while. I'm probably more recoil sensitive than many folks but to me a 500 grain minie ball over 100 grains of 2f just flat hurts and even at that it only runs about 1000 fps. A .570 ball runs about 275 grains and that seems like plenty for American game. Now if you're talking Africa, Val Forget took an elephant with a .58 caliber 610 grain minie over 180 grains of 3f. That load is definitely not recommended for a Zouave!

The 525 grain buffalo bore bullets over 56 grains of pyrodex does not kick bad, 80+ stinks with the brass butt plate.  Big bruises.
But the sights work with the conicals.
After all the Zuave was made to shoot a 535 grain minnie ball with 65 to 70 grains of balck.
I had problems making a light load of 40 grains or less with the sabots.
The plastic sabot covered the flash hole.
and loads with the round ball of under 30 grains also were a problem.  At one point I was thining that the round ball was 230 grains and 30 grains or less would equal a 45 ACp load for plinking and playing.

[coyotejoe]

Wasn't Val Forgett using the Navy Arms "Buffalo Hunter" model for that hunt? That was  a "sporterized" Zouve. That is IIRC anyway. I used to have the BP book with the article, I may have confused it with another, my memory can be spotty at times.   

He did take along a Buffalo Hunter but loaded it lighter, 125 grains of 3f and took a lion with that. For elephant and hippo he used the Navy Arms Hawken Hunter with 180 grains. Man I bet that hurt.

[Pat/Rick]

coyotejoe, thankyou sir, I stand corrected. It has been awhile since I have read that article. Certainly would have been a recoil producing load  . Seems 70 grains in my "trade rifle" is plenty for me anymore  .  Wouldn't mind getting a musket. I've been thinking of a 1841 "mississippi" My trade rifle is in .54 so that would be a good companion. Had a zouve many years ago and enjoyed it.

[bub524]

I have had 15 Enfields and a couple of other models, all repros. I never had very good luck with minnies. I've have tried them ALL, even custom made molds, and have never found one of them that would shoot with a patched round ball out of a plains style rifle. They are heavy and cumbersome. After about 8 years, off and on, experimenting with them I finally gave up. Still have a Zouave and a CS Richmond Carbine, but they are for entertainment, not serious shooting. That being said, if I came across a good deal on another musket I would probably buy it. They are a hoot to shoot
I applaud anyone who can shoot a minnie to 1.5" at 100yds. I couldn't do that with the muzzle touching the paper. 2" groups with a RB on a good day but not with conicals.

[longcaribiner]

I have a Zoli Zouave and with round balls and moderate loads it has fair hunting accuracy.  Even good enough for offhand target shooting out to 50 yds.  I have never tried working up a minnie load, the few times I tried shooting them, the the results were a travesty.

[coyotejoe]

Indeed. To get accuracy with a minie one must be either very dedicated or very lucky. Even if one finds an accurate load the rainbow trajectory is still a problem. Shooting small groups at known ranges is one thing, hitting small targets at random unknown distances is quite another, more like archery than riflery.

[Pat/Rick]

I never did try minie balls when I had my zouave, I do shot maxi's with my .54 for hunting. Have been thinking of RB's for all though.  Thought the accuracy of minies was always best demonstrated by massed musket fire. Does anybody know what the "snipers/sharpshooters" of the period used? Whether minies or RB's?

[surveyor47]

I shoot N-SSA competition with 58 Cal muskets and can assure you that minnies can be extremely accurate at 100 yards.  The key to accuracy with the minnie is bullet diameter.  Parker Hale Enfield Birmingham 2 Band Enfields and Musketoons usually take either a 577 or 578 diameter minne.  For target work, many of us use the 580 RCBS Hodgdon mold with pure lead and then size it to the diameter the gun prefers.  You can purchase loading tubes from "suttlers" such as North East Trade Company to pre-load your rounds.  In hot climates SPG works well, but further North, Lens Lube works better.  The traditional target load is 45 grains of FFF black powder, with is equivalent to rougly 55 grains of FF. I have one gun that likes 55 grains of FFF, approximately equivalent to 65 grains of FF.  Notice that these loads are not far from traditional centerfire loads such as the 45-70  (70) grains of FF being the operative number).   The Union increased its musket charge to 70 grains of FF during the Civil War, probably due to spillage and poor powder quality.  60 Grains of FF is more like what these guns like with a minnie.

Skirt thickness is very important, particularly if you are going to shoot a charge of 65 or 70 grains of FF. I consider 65 grains of FF to the maximum load in my guns which are fired hundreds of times in every competition- subjecting them to a lot of wear and tear.   There are varying sizes of skirt plugs available, alowing you to increase thickness of your skirt.  If you want a cheap easy bullet, try the 58 Cal Buffalo Bore Hollow Point, which has a thick skirt.  Properly sized, this bullet is EXTREMELY ACCURATE, to the point of being near unbelievable- as in 5 bullets in 1 hole accurate.

Accuracy with a properly sized minnie can be amazing. One of my guns is capable of placing 5 shots into a tiny cloverleaf at 100 yards.  The biggest problem with these guns is that reflection of the sun frequently places point of impact at 3 or 9 oclock, by as much as 3 inches at 100 yards. This is inconsequential when hunting, but is a big deal in competition.  I have shot match winning groups into the 8 ring, knocking me out of the running.
 

[coyotejoe]

"not far from traditional centerfire loads such as the 45-70"
  I would say very inferior to a 45/70 which itself is not a flat shooter.  The Lyman BP Handbook shows 70 grains of 2f producing only about 800 fps. Your 45 grain load probably runs about 650-700 fps. Yes, at exact known distances, with sights calibrated for those exact distances and with zero wind a fastidious, detail oriented shooter can lob those minies into small groups. A hunter or rendezvous shooter who faces shots at unknown ranges will be severely handicapped by the softball trajectory. Even the military of the day recognized that as a serious limitation.

[surveyor47]

Notice that the 45 grain is of 3F not 2F.  We use 3F because it is cleaner burning and less likely to cook off in rapid fire than 2F.   We have seen a number of cook offs in smoothbores, which usually use 2F.  3F gives about 15% higher pressure than 2F for a given volume, so the 45 grain 3F load is just a tad below the military load of 60 grains of 2F.  

I will not exceed 70 grains of 2F because my guns are shot hundreds of times per competition, giving more wear than actual Civil War guns typically went through.  Given that level of use, I never exceed 70 grains of 2F, but  do recognize the limitation of 800 FPS. As you mentioned, these guns are typically "dialed in" to shoot exactly to point of aim at specific ranges, 50 & 100 yards.  The Enfields do have an excellent ladder type military sight, calibrated out to 400 yards.  It might be interesting to see how these guns shoot at 150 or 200 yards with military sights. Personally, I would never exceed 100 yards on game with a minnie.  I have never used my muskets for hunting specifically due to velocity limitation, but some guys say that their muskets have proven very effective on game at short range.

I believe it is the Witworth Rifle that had a 45 caliber heavy barrel and used a heavy charges, which was used as a sniper rifle with great effect.    Actually, the Thompson Center Hawken/New Englander series probably pretty much duplicate Witworth ballistics with a 50 caliber 100 grain charge. The problem with the Thompsons is getting them to shoot accurately with that heavy a charge.  I believe the root problem with Thompsons is the use of REAL type bullets, such as the Maxiball.   I believe that a heavy skirted minnie such as the Buffalo Bore Hollow Point should give excellent accuracy if sized to within .001" of bore diameter.  That is one of the projects I have in mind for this winter and I will let you know what I find out when I try it. If I am right, there is much less reason to use a magnum inline for hunting.

[coyotejoe]

No arguement here sir, I do respect anyone who is willing to go through the struggle to get fine accuracy from the rifled musket and minie-balls. But the question was in regard to a hunting rifle and for that I think the round ball is a far better choice and for that matter a plains style rifle is a still better choice since they were designed for hunting and not bayonet fighting. I do hunt with a Zouave but I load roundballs up to 1200 fps, still slow but 50% faster than a minie.  I've replaced the sights with a rear peep and an orange blade up front. With that load I zero 3" high at 50 and can still hold dead on out to a bit more than 100. If I wanted more speed I'd need only load more powder but since I've gotten old and scrawny I don't care for heavy recoil and 100 yards is about as far as I care to shoot at game with iron sights even on a 30/06.
Funny you should mention the T/C New Englander. I bought one in .54 caliber but the bore was badly pitted to I sent it to Bobby Hoyt to be rebored to .58 caliber. I haven't spent any time with it but the rifling Mr. Hoyt did seems rather like a Forsyth style, wide shallow grooves, narrow lands, 72" twist. I plan on shooting roundballs with charges not to exceed 100 grains. They are rather light weight guns and very nice to carry but I think 100 grains behind a 500 grain bullet would be brutal at the buttplate.

[surveyor47]

I did not realize that Hoyte would do that type of conversion. Im going to have to consider that.  Hoyte has an excellent reputation as a barrel maker and does the rifling for James River Armory.  www.jamesriverarmory.com  Mr. Hoyte installed a higher front sight blank on my Muketoon and a teamates gun as well.  The factory sights on Parker Hale Enfields are too low for 50 and 100 yard shooting, shooting nearly a foot high at 100 yards. I filed Mr. Hoytes blank down to point of aim with the military sight at both 50 & 100. 

A Thompson 58 with 100 grains of FFG is nothing to sneeze at.  I think that I would happily settle for 80 grains or so.  What groove diameter did Hoyte install 577, 578 or 579?  Just curious. 

Overall, I think that the T/C 50 cal with a heavy skirted minnie hollow point should be extremely effective. The trick is getting accuracy with a heavy load. My Thompsons are 50 yard accurate with REAL type bullets. I think that these guns should be 150 yards accurate with the proper bullet.  Still, Im going to have to try a round ball mold for my 58.  What diameter would a 577 barrel take and what type of patch?  One thing I recently learned is that smoothbore muskets give a velocity of about 1200 fps, like you were talking about. The only problem with them is actually hitting much of anything beyond 50 yards.  The smoothbores were the reason mass formation were still in use in 1860.  The rifled muskets, Henrys, Sharps, Maynard and Smith Carbine breech loaders resulted in trench tactics late in the war. 

[coyotejoe]

I know where you're coming from. I've often thought the ideal ML hunting rifle would be something like the old British blackpowder expresses. A bullet weight between 300-400 grains with a muzzle velocity somewhere around 1700-1900 fps would do nicely for a center hold out past 150 yards. African hunter John Taylor spoke highly of the .450 BP Express for thin skinned game and especially for lion. I've never seen any specifications on bore size, groove depth or twist but perhaps some modern barrel maker may be able to duplicate those barrels and one would likely need a custom bullet mold as well.
 As to roundballs, I think you'll find the available .570 ball will work well in any .58 bore by juggling the patch thickness.

[Range Rider]

I have an A. Zoli 1863 Remington .58 Cal.  The rifle shoots best with a patched .562 RB and 90 Grs. of 2F Black Powder.  The Mini Ball shoots great with about 60 Grs. of B/P.  The big problem with Minis that I have seen over the years has been skirt damage. When shooters try to make the Zouave shoot like a Sharps 45/90 they run into some real peoblems.  The skirt can be blown off the Mini Ball and leave a lead ring in the breech of your rifle. The only way to remove this lead ring is to remove your breech plug.  So when loading the Minis stay at 70 grs or below with standard Mini Balls.  This may not apply to some of the modern Minis such as the Lee Real.

RR

[surveyor47]

Sir, I think you give some excellent advice!  I think that 70 grains of 2F is plenty enough for a 58 replica of any sort.  That was the Union Military Load during the latter part of the Civil War.  The RCBS Hodgdon Minnie has a thin skirt and I would not want to load it that hot.  I have shot the Hornady Great Plains Hollow Point Minnie (which has a thick skirt) with 60 grains of 2F with no problem and excellent accuracy- 1 jagged hole at 100 yards.

Again, the key to minnie ball accuracy is bullet diameter, which should be within about .001" of bore diameter.  I have seen some near unbelievable groups with minnies during competition (standing and no sling). At N-SSA nationals, the winners are the guys who keep all their 50 and 100 yard shots within the 10 ring, the winner being the guy with the highest number of Xs.

[58cal]

I have a 58 caliber (.577) Parker Hale Enfield 2 band, barrel made in Birmingham England, 1 in 48 twist, 33" barrel, 5 deep progressive groove rifling. (.005 to .013, I believe) It was made in the 1970's. Is this the same gun you had?

I will use it for target practice, and hunting to 50 yds, once I become more consistently accurate.

I've shot it about six times. I've learned when discussing my Enfield to be specific as to exactly which gun I'm talking about.
I didn't know there are so many different types of Enfields, with different rifling, and bore diameters.

It's not easy to use the patch and round ball in a military rifle, built to shoot minie bullets, that has deep progressive grooves.

I shot the round ball the other day with 60g of Goex FFg at about 43 yds. I've used the .570 rb and a .015 patch. I tapped it in the whole length of the short starter with a mallet. Very tight at the muzzle.
I then was able to seat it with the loading rod.  Using "fine sight",  the first three shots were touching each other at 2 1/4 inches high and 2 1/4" to the right. The holes looked like 2 eyes and a nose. I understand it was high because of the short distance. After each shot I swabed with 3 patches, both sides, because of the very tight fit.
I shot 2 more times with the rb trying to compensate for the 2 1/4" and each shot got closer to the bull.
Next time I shoot I'll try more powder and see if the group opens up.
I think the rb would be very good at 50 yds or less, especially from a tree stand because I wouldn't have to worry about the ball moving off the powder.

After shooting the rb I tried some swaged, 530g smooth sided (no grooves) pritchett style minies, with thin skirts, that I got from Dixie Gun works.
I don't want to cast at this time and since these were swaged/sized, they were my first choice.
They all measured .5758 I used 60g of FFg and crisco in the base. First shot, just about 2 1/4 inches high and 2 1/4 inches to the right. Shot 4 more times with 60g and all were high and to the right, 2 overlaped. Ended up with a larger group than the roundballs. I'll probably try 65 and 70g next time.

SS Firearms has some cast .575, 566g P/H shallow base, and .575, 530g standard, and both of those minies in .577 dia.
I'm thinking of getting Dixie Gun Works .577 Enfield sizing die (not sure exactly what size they would come out) and sizing a few by hand to see which shoots best.
Which one of these do you think will shoot best, and am I trying to get them sized so they just barely do not scrape the rifling on the way down the barrel, to say .5765?

I like making smoke, but I want to be as accurate as reasonably possible.

58cal

I once had one of the excellent Parker/Hale two band muskets which could hold a carefully developed Minie ball load into 3" at 100 yards and almost as good with patched balls. I now have a Zouave from which I've fired only patched balls. The Zouave is nowhere near the quality of the Parker/Hale but still throws a .570" ball with suitable accuracy for elk hunting. It is generally quite easy to get accuracy with a patched ball and that is much better than a minie for hunting because you can load them up to 1300-1400 fps and a decent 100 yard trajectory without dislocating your shoulder. Getting accuracy from a minie can be challenging and often requires lots of experimentation and testing. The minie must be a snug fit to the bore, no more than .001" under bore size to shoot accurately. That can get into custom molds and sizing dies. Then too, casting perfect minies is much more difficult than casting balls. Once you have the perfect minie, only then can you start working out the perfect powder charge. The old Civil War standard load was 60 grains of 2f and that gives a 500 grain minie less than 1000 fps and a softball trajectory which can require different holds for shots even inside 75 yards. Many of the competition shooters load even lighter, say like 45 grains and velocity is so lame it requires a different hold between 25 and 50 yards, not at all good for hunting. Then too, casting minies takes almost twice as much lead as roundballs and they can lead the bore, where as a patched ball will not. So, for all of those reasons I much prefer patched balls for hunting. Lastly, the musket is also a rather heavy rifle to carry very far when hunting and the sights are not the best.

[coyotejoe]

Yes, it sounds like the Parker/Hale two band I once had. As best I recall (35 years ago) I shot a minie from a modified Lee 500 grain mold. I reduced the core pin diameter to produce a thicker skit and enlarged the nose diameter to just lightly engrave on the lands. I think it ended up being about 520 grains. I started at 60 grains of 2f and with a slip-on recoil pad I worked up to 110 grains. Groups got progressively tighter up to 90 and then opened up at 100 and 110 so 90 was the load but as I said this was a highly modified mold.
 I really think that for accuracy you will have to cast your own, most pre-cast minies are way undersize, poorly cast and subject to damage in shipment. Casting perfect minies is an art in itself, both lead temp and mold temp have to be just right to get perfect skirts then they have to be handled carefully to prevent damage to the thin skirt. Just getting a mold to cast the exact right diameter can be a challenge. I don't know the diameter of the Dixie size die but a sizer can only reduce bullet diameter and the problem is that most molds cast too small.
 I would suggest you ask questions on this site. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showforum.php
There is one fellow in particular, David Minshall, an English gent and competition shooter who is the authority on all things Enfield and minie.

[58cal]

Thanks for the help.
Yes, I've been trying to catch up to David Minshall on a few of the forums.
Thanks again.

[Cleburne]

Very informative thread, but please shut it down. Y'all are givin' me the hots to buy a .58 cal rifled musket! Stop it ya hear?!? Stop it!   

Cleburne

[coyotejoe]

Now that is funny because I've really been trying to make the point that a .58 minie rifle is really only good for shooting in competition with other .58 minies, for hunting, plinking and general target shooting there are much better choices available.