Author Topic: Interesting Electric Car  (Read 1257 times)

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Offline MGMorden

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Interesting Electric Car
« on: October 29, 2010, 04:25:02 AM »
Figured you guys might find this article interesting.  I'm personally of the opinion that we're going to burn all of the gasoline we have anyways (how long is the only question), so most of my interest in electric cars is economic in nature rather than environmental, but regardless, this little car seems REALLY interesting:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1050863_electric-car-drives-375-miles-at-55-mph-recharges-in-6-minutes

You can tell most of the details in the link, but essentially a German team was able to modify an Audi (I'm guessing just the hull with a completely gutted and replaced engine setup) completely on electric.  Speeds were up to 55mph, and the range was 375 miles, but more impressively is that it's setup to be able to recharge the battery again in 6 minutes!


Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010, 04:54:55 AM »
sounds pretty good for local use. I'm wondering how long it would take to charge at the house, using 220v or 115.
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Offline steg

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 08:34:35 AM »
I admit that it sounds good, but my question would be how do they heat it in the winter?.............steg

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 08:42:15 AM »
sounds pretty good for local use. I'm wondering how long it would take to charge at the house, using 220v or 115.

Alot longer than 6 minutes. Here is something I have a bit of education and experience with. Watts per horsepower conversion is 745.7 watts = 1 horse power. If you want to run a 50 horse electric motor for 3 hours you would need a battery with a capacity of at least 112 KWH. At 220 volts you would need to be charging at a rate of 509 amps to get it done in 6 minutes. HMMM what gauge of wire would we need to run over 500 amps? 0000 is only rated to 380 amps. Would you like to mess with this kind of power?
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 10:19:48 AM »
With that kind of power who could afford to charge it anyway.  Either someone is stretching the truth or they made a mistake and it is really six hours to charge.

No good in Fairbanks anyway.  Ever seen one of those electric/gasoline Hybrids try and run at -60 degrees.  I've towed two of them out of intersections totally dead. 
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 10:52:47 AM »
With that kind of power who could afford to charge it anyway.

Going on billy's calc of 112 kwh capacity (which I'm going to take as correct - I confirmed a few of the other calcs before assuming the rest of his numbers were right), and the manufacturer's stated 97% transfer efficiency, you're looking at needing just shy of 116kwh to charge the battery to full.  National average cost of a kwh of power is around 9 cents, so you're looking at around $10 to charge it to full. 

That said, many of the electric cars designs are using less than 50hp, with many closer to 25hp (kinda - it makes more sense to compare electric engines using kw as the rating - many are around 60kw), so the power needed is lower.  One thing to remember is that, is that electric motors tend to be rated at continuous output power, whereas combustion engines tend to be rated at peak output power.  With that in mind, you can't directly compare gasoline horsepower to electric horsepower numbers. 

Keep in mind too that a lot of these cars use things like regenerative braking to reclaim some spent energy back into the battery too. 

Like I said, I'm of the opinion that what gas we have we're going to burn either way.  Moving to electric for the environment is not an issue - gas is a finite resource that will be used up, and whether you're a global warming believer or not - whether we burn that gas in 20 years or 500 years, on geologic timescales it's irrelvant.  The carbon sequestered in that will be returned to the atmosphere regardless.

What I DO see happening is huge price hikes on gasoline as quantities go down.  Might not be for a while.  Might not be during some of our lifetimes.  But it'll happen eventually.  Some people might not want to drive electric with $2-3 per gallon gasoline.  I'd wager a lot of people would if gasoline was $15-20 per gallon.  At that time, we need a replacement.  Personally, I think we'll see come combination of electric and ethanol/biodiesel (electric for your everyday stuff - ethanol/biodiesel for those specific applications that still really need a combustion engine).  Hydrogen is interesting, and burns as clean as you could want (the exhaust from a hydrogen engine is just water vapor), but I've been to several seminars and talks that make me serious question it's long term viability.  Namely, the energy density of hydrogen is so low that carrying enough of it to really get around becomes a huge problem.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 10:57:18 AM »
Containing hydrogen is also a problem.
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Offline SwampThing762

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 11:00:37 AM »
It is a great concept, and gets us away from subsidizing countries that hate us.   Would you be able to charge it in a reasonable amount of time with a 5 watt solar panel on the dash, or would that be like the little boy with his finger in a crumbling dike? I have no head for electrical power conversion calculations, so I thought I would just ask you guys that know these things.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 11:26:20 AM »
We will never run out of oil.  They will make it from algae and keep on going.  Algae oil can be produced now for about $2 per gallon, but after adding taxes, it is higher than drilled.  Exxon has invested about $500,000,000 in setting up an algae production facility, I think in Texas.  If it pans out, they may go into production.  Algae is also carbon neutral.  Algae takes carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere to grow, and when it is processed and burned puts it back.  So, it is safe.  Infrastructure is in place for oil based transportation.  Algae farms will be placed near oil refineries to start with.  Just need water and sun. 

The Audi car from what I read, uses higher voltage to recharge faster. 


Offline MGMorden

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2010, 11:59:08 AM »
We will never run out of oil.  They will make it from algae and keep on going.  Algae oil can be produced now for about $2 per gallon, but after adding taxes, it is higher than drilled.  Exxon has invested about $500,000,000 in setting up an algae production facility, I think in Texas.  If it pans out, they may go into production.  Algae is also carbon neutral.  Algae takes carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere to grow, and when it is processed and burned puts it back.  So, it is safe.  Infrastructure is in place for oil based transportation.  Algae farms will be placed near oil refineries to start with.  Just need water and sun.  

Making "oil" from algae falls into the biodiesel category I mentioned earlier.  You certainly CAN make biodiesel from lots of things, and I'd wager that we will - as I said, ethanol and biodiesel will be used in the future for things that need it (there are some things electric just can't do - reasonable air travel for example).  The thing is, your $2 price runs into a problem: price is a function of supply and demand.  Right now, demand for biodiesel is very, VERY low.  That leads to a low price.  Heck look at the price of regular cooking oil (which some modified cars can run off of) which is cheap.  The thing is, if you try to run our entire nation's motor fleet off of the stuff, the demand will skyrocket. So will the price.  We just don't have the capacity to renewably churn out combustion-fuel at the rate needed to power us.  Any biodiesel or other combustible fuel usage at that point would only be useful as a supplement to an alternative technology.  

Saying "we'll never run out" isn't the same as saying "We'll always have enough to go around". With gasoline we're using energy that was stored millions of years ago.  Just in the US, we're currently using that stored fuel at a rate of around 16 MILLION gallons per HOUR.  With biodiesel and such, we're having to live on what we can renewably produce concurrent with our needs.  In essence, right now we're like a rich kid who inherited his grandfather's fortune.  We're living high on the hog using a resource built up long ago.  EVENTUALLY though, either he or his descendants are going to run out of that money.  They'll have to accept reality at that point, go out and start producing their own resources again (ie, get a job), and start living within their means.  That likely won't be anywhere near the same level as they had when they were living off grandpa's money, but such is life.  Whining and complaining don't change reality.  When the stored oil runs out, we're gonna have to make some changes.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2010, 12:56:28 PM »
Swampthing with a 100 watt solar panel it would take over 1000 hours of full sunlight to charge it. That was for a 112kwh battery. I heard somewhere that this battery is like 240 kwh. To charge something like that in 6 minutes would take voltages in the tens of thousands volts range. Swapping batteries would be the way to go.
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Offline SwampThing762

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2010, 02:25:17 PM »
Thanks for the info.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2010, 04:00:33 PM »
The article I read on algae production is that it would take greenhouses covering an area the size of Rhode Island to power the entire USA.  Not impossible.  If we want to cut imported oil, we can do it in 5-10 years.  Currently in Alabama natural gas is about $1.36 per gallon equivelant of gasoline. 

1) T. Boone Pickens says if the fleets in American converted to natural gas, it would cut out 40% of the imported oil.

2) Convert most vehicle production to diesel.  Germany has cut their oil imports in half by converting to diesel.  (85% of their vehicles run diesel).  Reason is you get 27 gallons of diesel refined from a 55 gallon barrel of oil verses 20 gallons of gasoline.  Then diesel gets an average of 25-30% better mileage than gasoline, thus cutting fuel use in half.

By doing both things together you cut your imports out completely.  Then you can start diesel-hybrid production later.  It will take about 10 years of production to replace a lot of the gasoline cars, same with natural gas. 

We have about a 200 year supply of natural gas.  We have an 800 year supply of coal.  So we need to make synthetic oil from coal also. 

There are ways out of our delima, be we have to make the choices and do what we need to.  Hybrids and electrics are more expensive now, so we can convert to natural gas and diesel while better technology is developed.
 

Offline lakota

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2010, 07:30:24 AM »
To bad its not made by Government Motors or Obamysler. Thats the only way we will ever get a viable electric car in the U.S. They wont let the competition ever get a one up on the State run automakers.
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Offline SwampThing762

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2010, 08:38:15 AM »
Maybe we could send a few hundred thousand to China, and wear down some of our debt.  ;D

St762
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2010, 03:50:48 AM »
Again those battry cars do not work in cold environments.  They are great in Florida, California, and the Southern states.  They will even work in Minnasota during the summer, but what about the winter.  We going to keep our old gasoline cars for back-up?

The only reason we are running low on fuel is caused by the Government.  We have enough oil to do this country for the next 100 years, (take the current rate and add the Current groth rate) right here in the US.  Just the Government will not let us drill for it.  Now the EPA has undertaken to start closing refineries, again causing further shortages.
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2010, 04:38:22 AM »
Quote
Again those battry cars do not work in cold environments.  They are great in Florida, California, and the Southern states.  They will even work in Minnasota during the summer, but what about the winter.  We going to keep our old gasoline cars for back-up?

They don't currently work well there, but they very well might when the technology is refined.  When automobiles first came out, they were ridiculed by many.  They were unreliable, clunky, and cantankerous contraptions that more often than not left you beside the road waiting for a lift from some guy with a horse and buggy who was all too eager to point, laugh, and declare that such things would never be useful. They made the mistake of thinking that the technology was static and would never improve. 

The only reason we are running low on fuel is caused by the Government.  We have enough oil to do this country for the next 100 years, (take the current rate and add the Current groth rate) right here in the US.  Just the Government will not let us drill for it.  Now the EPA has undertaken to start closing refineries, again causing further shortages.

You have the numbers to go with that?  All the estimates I've seen point to us having a huge SOUNDING oil reserve when you hear the raw numbers, but when compared against our consumption rate we wouldn't last more than 5 years without any foreign oil at all.

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2010, 04:50:23 AM »
Convert most vehicle production to diesel.  Germany has cut their oil imports in half by converting to diesel.  (85% of their vehicles run diesel).  Reason is you get 27 gallons of diesel refined from a 55 gallon barrel of oil verses 20 gallons of gasoline.  Then diesel gets an average of 25-30% better mileage than gasoline, thus cutting fuel use in half

Dixie, if that is the case then why dose  diesel cost so much more per gallon at the pump? It would seem diesel should be cheeper tha gas.
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2010, 05:12:20 AM »
Dixie, if that is the case then why dose  diesel cost so much more per gallon at the pump? It would seem diesel should be cheeper tha gas.

It gets a little hard to compare.   Part of it is due to reserves being used at different rates (IIRC, diesel price fluctuations trail gasoline by quite a bit), and also  because diesel is refined from the same raw material crude oil) as gasoline.  As such, since in this area gasoline is in more demand, you have to pay a premium for diesel because in essence, you're paying an extra cost that the refiner is charging for lost opportunity (ie, he wasn't able to turn it into gasoline to sell it).  If it was made from a separate raw material, or if diesel was the preferred form, then you'd see lower prices. 

As a side note (I mentioned this in passing earlier), most diesel engines can actually be modified to use cooking oil (essentially biodiesel) as a fuel.  Some people on the net have even worked out deals with local fast food places to get their used cooking oil after they're done with it, either for free or for a very, very low cost (using it for frying doesn't affect the energy content - it'll still run an engine).  Just filter it and load it up.  They basically run their car for next to nothing, though I've heard that your car often starts to smell a bit like a deep fryer after a while :D.


Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2010, 05:32:12 AM »
America requires additional refining to get the sulfer out (passed during the Clinton administration).  This additional process adds to the price.  However, you still import less oil to make diesel than gasoline.  Remember diesels used to smell much more than they do now.  It is also easier to make diesel out of algae oil than gasoline.  Algae oil would be like vegatible oil. 

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2010, 12:56:02 PM »
When I was a young fellow, diesel was much cheaper than gas. Also when gas was $.25 a gallon kerosene was a$.05 a gallon. Now kerosene is about $5.00 a gallon. some thing just don't compute.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2010, 01:13:43 PM »
These numbers just don't add up..........
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2010, 03:20:31 PM »
These numbers just don't add up..........

That's what I been saying and providing figues.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2010, 03:52:44 PM »
Well I have bought gas for 25cents a gallon, this was the big stations. the cheap places had it for 17 cents. At that time I bought kerosene, we called it coal oil, for a nickle. This would have been 1954 and 1955.

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2010, 04:24:14 PM »
Well I have bought gas for 25cents a gallon, this was the big stations. the cheap places had it for 17 cents. At that time I bought kerosene, we called it coal oil, for a nickle. This would have been 1954 and 1955.

I don't think they were referring to your numbers. 

Kinda sad though: I wasn't driving until the late 1990's, and even I remember gas for $0.87 per gallon :(.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2010, 05:55:52 PM »
Well I have bought gas for 25cents a gallon, this was the big stations. the cheap places had it for 17 cents. At that time I bought kerosene, we called it coal oil, for a nickle. This would have been 1954 and 1955.

I don't think they were referring to your numbers. 

Kinda sad though: I wasn't driving until the late 1990's, and even I remember gas for $0.87 per gallon :(.

Yep...your numbers do add up Beerbelly, and like you I don't understand them.  We once had a kerosene stove and we could run it all weekend for a dime.


What doesn't add up is the  numbers on the batteries above.  Assuming they could get a battery that would propel a car, or even a golf cart that far, they would have to plug it into a hydroelectric plant to recharge in  6 minutes....unless they are talking about a fuel cell and not a battery.........
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2010, 11:27:55 PM »
Gasoline has the highway or road tax.  Kerosene does not have the tax.  Diesel has the tax. 

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2010, 04:16:12 AM »
I don't see how a car run off a battery is going to work. A battery has a life of so many recharges. If you charge it up every night I don't think it will last long. My guess is it will be like power tools, you can buy a new car for the price of a new battery.
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Offline MGMorden

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2010, 05:07:16 AM »
I don't see how a car run off a battery is going to work. A battery has a life of so many recharges. If you charge it up every night I don't think it will last long. My guess is it will be like power tools, you can buy a new car for the price of a new battery.
                        Beerbelly

Reference my earlier comment: don't assume that technology will remain static or unchanging. Heck they're already building battery operated cars that do pretty good - the problem is just the cost.

For example, the Tesla Roadster:

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster

Full electric, 245 miles on a charge, 0 to 60 in 3.7 seconds, and a top speed of 125 mph.  These are on sale and available now, and all reviews I've heard is that the owners love them.  The problem is that it costs over $100k.  HOWEVER, in time I'm sure that not only will the technology improve, but the cost will come down significantly as well.



Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Interesting Electric Car
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2010, 05:26:07 AM »
One of the German companies is looking into an all-electric car.  They have found out for example, if it takes 8 hours to charge at 110 volts, it takes about 4 hours to charge at 220 volts.  What about 660? 1-2 hours to charge?  Seems like if they have 660 on the wires in the streets, a direct connection could be installed for quick charging.  Now if service stations had high voltage charging, maybe the electric can work.  With longer range, and high voltage recharging for quick charges, it might work.  I still say for the next 20-50 years we are going to be using gasoline, diesel and natrual gas.  There are no other quick fill fuels available with the existing infrastructure.  By using gasoline and diesel we can cut out imported oil.  To me that should be the goal.  It kills two birds with one stone so to speak.  Cuts imports, and with fleets using natural gas, cuts carbon emissions.  Then we can work on rechargable hybrids and algae oil and/or coal gasification.  To strengthen our immediate economy and create jobs, we need to cut the imported oil.