.338 Federal vs. 8x57 mm

[kombi1976]

There is an interesting similarity between the 338 Fed and the classic English 333 Jeffrey which fired a 250gr RNSN at 2400fps and a 300gr SP at that magical African speed....2150fps.
With the focus on velocity that most US-designed round have, though, it means the Fed has a predominance on lighter pills.
But then American hunters prefer a flatter trajectory and aren't hunting large antelope and the big cats.
Whether faster, lighter & shorter bullets with their lesser ballistic coefficient win out over slower, longer & heavier pills with their superior BC is open to conjecture and experimentation.
But then, the short action nature of the 338 Fed limits bullet length.
Perhaps in an intermediate or standard action chambering a 338 Fed would allow you to explore the more extreme edges of bullet weight in this cal.
That's one difference with the 8x57.......ANY length will fit.

[Harry Snippe]

 

So after all the song about your 8MM your starting to sound like swampy and his remington . I am happy for you .
There is a cult here too that has to have Mag on the case after the number.
Thank God people are different . I mean like having red or light hair , or even dark skin

Do you keep it under the bed at night so you can pet it once in awhile ?

[kombi1976]

So after all the song about your 8MM your starting to sound like swampy and his remington . I am happy for you .
There is a cult here too that has to have Mag on the case after the number.
Thank God people are different . I mean like having red or light hair , or even dark skin

Do you keep it under the bed at night so you can pet it once in awhile ?

Huh?

[mcwoodduck]

There is an interesting similarity between the 338 Fed and the classic English 333 Jeffrey which fired a 250gr RNSN at 2400fps and a 300gr SP at that magical African speed....2150fps.
With the focus on velocity that most US-designed round have, though, it means the Fed has a predominance on lighter pills.
But then American hunters prefer a flatter trajectory and aren't hunting large antelope and the big cats.
Whether faster, lighter & shorter bullets with their lesser ballistic coefficient win out over slower, longer & heavier pills with their superior BC is open to conjecture and experimentation.
But then, the short action nature of the 338 Fed limits bullet length.
Perhaps in an intermediate or standard action chambering a 338 Fed would allow you to explore the more extreme edges of bullet weight in this cal.
That's one difference with the 8x57.......ANY length will fit.

If you are going to go standard length they why not get more powder and a longer heavier bullet with the 338-06 or 338 Win Mag?
The whole idea is to have a short action and a heavier than 30 bullet for larger game at close (under 150 yards) range.

[AtlLaw]

All this talk has proved one thing to me.  I NEED an 8x57 sporter!   

[mcwoodduck]

All this talk has proved one thing to me.  I NEED an 8x57 sporter!  

Since I am good at spending your money.
I think you should get both a 338 and a 8X57 and take them both along with your 338-06 to the range same day.
Give a range report.  Also adds to your have to deer hunts and keep you around for a few more years before I have to start sending you some of my rifles.
I also think (again spending your hard earned $) that you should get a 8X57 in a handi barrel.
I think you would be the only one with one.  

[AtlLaw]

Seems to me I wrote a long dissertation some time ago, when the cartridge first came out, in a thread discussiong the need for the .338 Fed.  As I remember, I couldn't understand why it was being praised to the sky when the 338-06 languished.     I know I threw the 358 and 35 Whelen in there also but I can't remember what my conclusion was... 

Can't remember a lot of things nowadays...    everybody says it comes with old age...    I guess they're right ...    'course there isn't anything right about old age...    'cept it ain't for wimps...  not that I'm calling y'all wimps...    everyone on GBO is a manly man!     So we all got to man up and set these people who are in touch with their feminine side streight!  I tell you they're the downfall of this country!     So on this day, December 7th, I want us to all vow to fight wimpishness and contribute to the GBO server fund!     that's why I want a 8x57!  that proves my position that it is a better cartridge then the 338 Fed!

And you said my memory was getting bad...   

[kombi1976]

Ummm, I'm not sure I understand all that and I'm only 37 but what he said!!

[ratherbefishin]

I may be cynical[comes with age]but it seems to me some of these ''new'' offerings are designed more to induce people to think that the only thing standing between them and success is a ''new'' rifle[sort of like the mindset of the golfing community]whereas the REAL reason is NOT  having the latest whizbang but their lack of commitment to taking the time to know their rifle,the loads, ballistics and when it comes to hunting-time and effort in the field......another thing-there is a REASON why some of these old cartridges are still around-some 100 years later-and that is because they WORK..while other ''new'' ones quickly fade[the .260 offers nothing substantially over the 6.5x55 swede and I hear rumours of it being dropped-as have many others ]That said-I have NOTHING against guys who love guns and play with new calibers and loads and bullet design -its the way progress is made-sometimes.But just because the ''new'' RIFLE  is capable of a 400 yard shot-sure doesn't mean the RIFLEMAN is

What I fail to comprehend is how someone believing they are being rational and logical claiming some of the older cartridges are just not up to snuff-but praising the capabilites of modern blackpowder rifles and sabot loads......apples and oranges?-sure they are but when it comes to hunting,a deer doesn't know the diference between a 30/30 ,a sabot loaded muzzleloader ,an 8x57 or a 338 federal.......and given the fact that MOST deer are killed well within the effective range of ANY of them-what diference does it make?

tell you something-up here the Indians mainly use .22 lr-and I've seen many a buck dropped in his tracks with a well placed bullet behind the eye....simply cause the old guy had the skills and patience to get within 40 yards...and in his hands it wouldn't matter WHAT rifle he had

[jcn59]

I've shot deer with 8x57, 7x57, & 6.5x55 (+just about everything else) & I haven't ever had a problem with overkill.  Overkill is NEVER a problem, but underkill can be problematic.

There is really nothing that compares with my 8x57s.   It's like the sky opens up and God drops a bolt of lightening on the deer.  Doesn't make any difference where you hit them or what bullet you use, they just crumple up right there and hit the ground.    With a bullet placed properly, sometimes you don't even need a knife.  Sometimes they land there in a neat little pile, all wrapped in freezer paper and labeled.   It's pretty clear that the 8x57 is the only true deer rifle that exists.  Everything else is just a "wanna-bee".   I threw all my other rifles away.  You should too.

[Drilling Man]

   I threw all my other rifles away.  You should too.

  Please don't make me throw away my 280 Rem. 

  DM 

[kombi1976]

Nor my 9.3x62 and 450/400 NE 3".

[jcn59]

I can take them for you.  I know what's best for them.  You can have them back after Osama gets re-elected.

[kombi1976]

I can take them for you.  I know what's best for them.  You can have them back after Osama gets re-elected.

Mmmm, why am I not surprised by your offer......?

[Brithunter]

Hmm as for modern 8x57's well here's mine:-



Parker-Hale 1200 Super in 7.92mm and it weighs 7lbs 12ozs as seen in the photo.

Seems it was made for an export order and not catalogued  . Oh well I picked it up NIB some years back. Now as for 200 grain  Nosler Partitions not working the same in 8mm as in .30 cal I wonder what noselr altered on the 8mm bullet to case that?

Oh yes and the reason the 03 and themn 06 case is longer than the Europeans ones was because America was way behind on smokelss powder development. Remeber it was France that developed it first closely followed by Germany, britian was slow off the marrk as well  . The Military like most of them instead of being at the fore were trailing behind. Surely it was Winchester who introduced the .30WCF as a smokeless cartridge before the 30-03 abd even 30-40. Please correct me if I got that the wrong way round.

[jcn59]

That's pretty much the way I remember it.  Then the U.S. showed the Germans, French, and I guess the Brits too, exactly how their new powder was to be used.   Of course, we had a superior cartridge, the 30-06.  I guess we had a superior army, too.  I suppose that's why the '06 still reigns in the USA.  Most of us know a winner when we see it.   The '06 & 8mm both work fine for Wisconsin deer hunting.

Thank God the Europeans developed the first forms of smokeless powder, even if some of it came in "sticks" like pencil lead.  

[nomosendero]

Now as for 200 grain  Nosler Partitions not working the same in 8mm as in .30 cal I wonder what noselr altered on the 8mm bullet to case that?

The 30 cal has a better SD, which matters with larger animals much more than the small diff. of frontal area, .301SD vs .274 is worth noticing . Also, the 06' will push the bullet faster, though that is slight, but again the Bal. Coe. of .481 vs .426, well being a diff of .55 not only makes a diff in drop, but retained energy as well. I can see these things add up. I will not say how diff they are in the field because I have used the 06 alot but not the 8mm. It appears that DM has used both bullets in the field & has made an observation based on those experiences. I will trust his judgement due to that. BH, have you used both of these bullets in the field?

Oh yes and the reason the 03 and themn 06 case is longer than the Europeans ones was because America was way behind on smokelss powder development

Man, I'm glad that happened!! We now have a case with good powder cap that has led to so many rounds, thank goodness!   I believe we may have pulled alittle ahead of France now with powder, bullets etc.  

[Brithunter]

Oh dear one must remember to never point out factual history unless it's in Americas favor 

I meerly pointed out that smokeless powder was invented by the French who were the first military in the world to adopt what was called a small bore cartridge which of course was the 8mm Lebel. This sparked a mad scramble to develop and adopt small bore cartidges.

have you used both of these bullets in the field?

Nope I brought one box of partition by mistake in 6mm and they din't shoot very well at all in either the 6mm rem or the .243. I have no need for partition for my deer hunting so will not waste my money on them. Due to our daft, stupid even, licensing system I am not permitted to hunt with the 8mm at the moment a fact I intend to change next year on renewal. On please note the original 154 gr Spitzer loading adopted by Germany was 200 fps faster that the 30-06 loading which was adopted in response to Germany's Spitzer load. If I got my history correct here America was still conquering the wilderness and continent at that time. Was this not the period that the US was still fighting to secure the southern boarder with Mexico.

As for Cordite well it worked for the British or it certainly seemed to do the job.

[Dixie Dude]

Yep, we were chasing Pancho Villa, and we still haven't secured the Mexican border.  Like someone said, the .338 Federal is so people can use a shorter lighter rifle.  I have both  .308 and .30-06 rifles.  The .308 is a about a pound ligher.  Same with the .358 and .35 Whelen, lighter rifles.  When you carry one around all day in the North American woods, lighter is better.  Now Alaska is another situation. 

[nomosendero]

BH, you can mention anything you like, the fact that we are better off with the 30-06 case is coincidental. 

What the speeds of the old military loads were in the old days is good history, but no relevance to present capabilities of any of the rounds mentioned.

[Drilling Man]

  I have both  .308 and .30-06 rifles.  The .308 is a about a pound ligher. 

  But it doesn't have to be...  You can have a 30-06 just as light as a 308, and both can be had lighter than you would want to shoot much.

  Maybe we should all thank the chinese for inventing gunpowder?

  DM

[nomosendero]

Maybe we should all thank the chinese for inventing gunpowder

  Yes & the dude that invented fire! 

[Brithunter]

If I want a light rifle I simply grab the 59 Vintage BSA Majestic Featherweight in 270 which weighs 6 1/4lbs sans scope and 7lbs 12 ozs with scope and sling.

Once I get the 8mm back on ticket for shooting I'll develop some loads and see what it's capable of. I will still not bother with Partitions, there is no need for them here and the cost of them it too stupid to talk about. I do have some nice S&B 196 grain SPCE bullets to try out.

[Mikey]

Brithunter:  the S&B 196 gn SPCE load is the most accurate factory load I've shot through my Huskquavarna 98 in 8mm, or any of my other 8mms for that matter.  This is another rifle and factory load combo I find difficult to outshoot with handloads.  I've used the Nosler Accubond at 200 gn and the Hornady 195 gn rn, both over the same powder charge and both shot to the same hole.  I used the 8 for a boar hunt this past fall and I like the way it puts the boar down - right there.  Used the S&B ammo as I wanted to see the effect of their 196 gn SPCE bullet and I got the effect I wanted - right there. 

There has been a lot of accurate information on this thread about ballistic coefficient, bullet design, diameter and weight and some guys say 06 (308 bore), some say 8mm (323 bore), and some say 338 (33 bore) and it has been interesting and informative.  Truly, any of them will do what we need them to do and it is a matter of individual preference.  This year I preferred the 8, last year it was the 6.5, next year I'll probably go with a 06, or maybe even my long barrelled 444.  Ah, decisions, decisions, decisions......

[jcn59]

The days of cordite sure were exciting compared to what most of us can hunt today.  When we talk about the current redistribution of wealth towards the rich, it's too easy to forget that many of us own and use more different firearms than most people owned in their entire lives, years ago.

My experience with the 8x57 with a standard cup & core type bullet of 180 grains at around 2600 fps is that it puts deer down quicker than 30 cal. cartridges, but not as fast as 200 grain .358 bullets at 2600 fps.   Generally, almost always, usually,  under most circumstances.

[AtlLaw]

I hate this topic!  Now I can't get the thought of finding a nice M98 that has been "Bubba'd" outa my mind!     A 1909 Argentine would be nice but unfortunately they didn't make it in 8x57...    And there's a gun show tomorrow...   

[ratherbefishin]

if you want an 8x57-check out the ''sporterized'' Husqvarna's-in Canada Tradeex imports them but due to BOTH our countries rediculous gun laws cross border shopping is virtually impossable.You can generally pick one up in''very good'' condition for under $250,and you just can't beat the swedes for high quality workmanship-as good or better than you can find even today on new rifles.The Husqvarna 96 is a small ring mauser and has proved itself to be quite adequite for everything but the hottest loads,and quite frankly-the 6.5x55,8x57 ,9.3x57 or 9.3x62 do  the job they were designed for-putting game down quickly and efficiently with moderate loads and nothing in North America is out of reach.Put an older M-8 Leupold on any of them and you've still got as fine a hunting rifle as you can get for well under $500.Leupolds ''lifetime guarantee'' means you can buy second hand with confidence

[Brithunter]

  Funny you should mention the Husqvarnas as I have a model 46 in 9.3x57 which I have put an old Bushnell Scope Cheif 3x on.

[jcn59]

Those rifles you are speaking of.....I like the european styling but the ones I see at the shows look really used with almost smooth checkering, maybe little stock cracks, worn bluing and $375.

Baaaahh!

[ratherbefishin]

I know its not going to help the guys south of the border-but check out the tradeexcanada.com website,they specialize in importing Husqvarna's-I have  three  in 6.5x55 and three more in 9.3x57,all with ''excellent''barrels.The stocks are European walnut,and while most show''handling marks'',a couple of hours steaming out dings,sanding and re-oiling brings them up beautifully.What the heck-can't do metal work but I like messing about with old guns anyway and bringing the stocks back to new is time well spent.I've never paid more than $250-and often less.I figure these ''sporterized ''swedes are the best value on the market for your money