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Offline subdjoe

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Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« on: October 30, 2010, 12:45:21 PM »
While browsing around, I found this:

Civilian deaths part of Civil War story


Quote
Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
Sunday, August 15, 2010
(Updated 3:05 am)
Letter To The Editor

Counterpoint:

By Timothy D. Manning
 

Donald W. Patterson’s story (“Researcher counts N.C.’s death toll in Civil War,” Aug. 9) addresses an issue of the war that is long overdue. The numbers of dead North Carolina military personnel is only a part of the story of the civil violence brought to our state.

According to “The U.S. Department of War: Official Records of the War of the Rebellion,” 80 percent of the U.S. military actions against the Southern states were directed against their civilian populations to demoralize the will of Southern men so that they would stop fighting. This goes far to explain the fierce resistance of Southern men to the U.S. invasion. Northern writers and newspapers were very open in recognition of these unethical tactics. This uncivil violence meant acts of warfare committed against unarmed women, children and the elderly of the South. Georgia was not the only state made to howl.

The conduct of the U.S. war against the South has largely gone unexamined by academics and independent scholars. The re-enactments of various battles that occurred against North Carolina citizens on our own soil capture our collective imaginations and tell an important part of the story of this war.

But, that leaves out 80 percent of the story of military actions against North Carolina and the other Southern states. There is a huge amount of unmined U.S. military and civil records that is long overdue for close and dispassionate examination.
Donald Livingston, a philosophy professor at Emory University and director of The Abbeville Institute, has for over 12 years had his graduate students researching the numbers of civilian deaths experienced in each Southern state. His findings are becoming a part of the previously untold story of this tragic and violent confrontation. The war may well be seen differently when the actions of the U.S. government against the Southern peoples (blacks, whites, civilians and military personnel) are more closely examined.

Current research and scholarship on these topics can be seen in the growing “Archived Articles” of the North Carolina Heritage Foundation posted at www.thesouthernpartisan.com.

The writer lives in Kernersville and is executive director, the North Carolina Heritage Foundation.

Also this site:

http://www.thesouthernpartisan.com/
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2010, 02:39:36 AM »
Another great find, thanks Joe.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline PA-Joe

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2010, 08:24:52 AM »
Too late to change things now. All the south can do is keep stealing manufacturing jobs from the north!

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2010, 08:28:04 AM »
Sounds like an excellent strategy. If you detroy the capability to make supplies, no need to even cut the supply lines.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2010, 09:05:27 AM »
Too late to change things now. All the south can do is keep stealing manufacturing jobs from the north!

Are you talking about the carpet baggers ? the ones that come down from the north to start businesses without union problems ? Or the snow birds that come ? or just the da-- yankee that stay for work ?
 face facts no one retires to the north ! They come to the South ,
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 09:05:00 PM »
This is a great article Joe. Thanks for sharing it.
Just one more nail in the coffin of the "Powers that Be" as to the way the South is portrayed and another FACT we can use to show the TRUTH to those willing to learn.    ;D

Thanks again for sharing it...

SBG
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2011, 05:30:04 AM »
Civlian casualties tend to occur where the battles are fought. Most battles in the Civil War occurred in the South, so that is where you would expect civilain casualties. In WW II, civilian casualties occurred mainly in Europe, not the US, because the war with Germany took place mainly in Europe. Before the beginning of the Civil War, in the fight over whether Kansas would be a free or a slave state, free state advocates were butchered by pro-slavery forces. Some say the Civil War actually began in Bleeding Kansas.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Bleeding_Kansas.aspx
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Offline Siskiyou

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There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 08:45:14 AM »
Quote
Before the beginning of the Civil War, in the fight over whether Kansas would be a free or a slave state, free state advocates were butchered by pro-slavery forces. Some say the Civil War actually began in Bleeding Kansas.


Oh, PLEASE! More throwing of stones, another tit for tat to glorify the excuse of brother killing brother!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacking_of_Osceola


Thank you for the honest approach and truth of our history during that sorry period!

It should also be stated that a lack of a proper responce by the Federal government allowed this, among other things, to fester thus leading to a mob mentality and yes the WONA!

One might look at the Government's proper responce during "Shay's rebellion" in Mass. and Rhode Island as to what should have been done to handle this Kansas/Missouri conflict.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 11:07:20 AM »
Civlian casualties tend to occur where the battles are fought. Most battles in the Civil War occurred in the South, so that is where you would expect civilain casualties. In WW II, civilian casualties occurred mainly in Europe, not the US, because the war with Germany took place mainly in Europe. Before the beginning of the Civil War, in the fight over whether Kansas would be a free or a slave state, free state advocates were butchered by pro-slavery forces. Some say the Civil War actually began in Bleeding Kansas.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Bleeding_Kansas.aspx

So you are saying that the federal policy of waging a scorched earth campaign of genocide against southern civilians was justified?  That taking every old man, woman, and child from Roswell GA (over 400 in number) and making them disappear is just one of those things?  That the roughly 1,000,000 "excess deaths" in the south "just tended to occur?"  That taking or destroying the last of the food from families, killing the livestock so that they couldn't work the farms, is just fine with you?  Lovely.  No wonder you fawn over Honest Abe and his bloody, dictatorial tactics.

Here is an account of the gentle treatment of civilians by federal forces:

Quote
July 21, 1864
Operations of the Guerrillas Platte City Captured and Burnt By Federal Troops One Half the Town Destroyed Several Men Burned to Death Battle at Camden Point.

From the St. Joseph Herald, July 16.

From passengers who arrived last night from below, we learn Platte City was almost destroyed yesterday morning by the Federal troops. Not over half the houses were left standing. The Methodist Church, a fine building, the Sentinel printing office, and the three-story brick block in which it was located, together with many business and dwelling-houses are all in ashes. Thus has vengeance, swift and dire, been visited upon a people who not only basely and cowardly surrendered themselves to THORNTON's thieves and murderers, but who also welcomed the villains with every demonstration of affection and delight.

The town was a nest-hole of treason. Not over a half dozen Union families residing there. Desolation and destruction have swept over it, and if the report brought us be true, the work has been most thoroughly performed. While we fear the few Union men of the place have been caused to suffer in property, and perhaps in life, we have not the slightest sympathy with the rebels.

It was rumored in Weston when the train left, that JESSE MORIN had been burned in his own house, that CLINT COCKERELL had joined the guerrillas and been killed in a skirmish, and Mr. F.A. Cox, the venerable editor of the Sentinel, was killed. The two former were regarded as secession sympathizers, while the latter was a sound, honest, true Union man. One passenger informed us that he had heard Mr. Cox was sick at his home, and had not been disturbed. We hope the latter story is true, for we should mou[???]n the loss of so pure and good a man.

The report was also brought into Weston that the troops were going south toward Parkville, from Platte City, and that they had declared their intention of showing no quarter to any rebel who should fall into their hands.

The following is the account given of the fight at Camden Point by Lieut. CHILD, of Capt. CLAGGETT's company, who was an eye-witness and participant in the affair:

About 2 o'clock P.M., Wednesday, a command composed of the Second Colorado, Fifteenth Kansas, Ninth M.S.M., and several detachments of E.M.M., numbering 500 men, with one piece of artillery, all under command of Col. FORD, of the Second Colorado, took up the line of march from Weston in the direction of Camden Point. When about two miles from that place, the advance guard of eighteen men were fired upon by guerrilla pickets, who then fled, closely followed by our men, who chased them through the brush into the town, firing as they went, and succeeded in killing six guerrillas while on the run. After passing about a mile beyond the town, they met the main force of the enemy, under command of THORNTON, numbering about 140 men, drawn up in line of battle; but, without halting, the eighteen Colorado boys gave a wild yell, dashed right toward the centre of the line, which immediately gave way, and, after firing a few shots, killing one of the attacking party, and wounding another, they fled in wild confusion, with their pursuers close in their rear, and seven of them were killed before they escaped. Having pursued some three or four miles, our men rejoined their command. After getting possession of the town we found two buildings in flames, fired by THORNTON, in which he had stored a large number of arms and ammunition. The explosion of the powder was heard distinctly several miles distant. He had made Camden Point his headquarters, had all his munitions of war there, and was conscripting the able-bodied citizens throughout that section. A few hours previous to the attack he made a speech, returning thanks for a flag that had been presented to him, and which was captured by our forces, in which he stated that it was folly for the Federate to think of attacking him; that he had captured Camden Point and would hold it; that he would fight in every by-road and hog-path in the country. His speech was scarcely ended before the avengers were upon him, and his band in full flight from the town.

A short time after entering town a man named MCCORMICK rode into our lines, and being recognized as a bushwhacker was immediately arrested. He did not know that THORNTON had been driven out imagined all was right, and tried to pass himself off as one of JENNISON's men.

Once in possession of the town, a sad scene of destruction and pillage commenced, such as we hope never again to witness. Several of the citizens were arrested and taken to headquarters. Houses were burned and pillaged, and the heavens for miles around were lighted with flames. Late into the night the fires continued, and again in the morning were renewed. About two-thirds of the town was destroyed, but the line Seminary buildings were unharmed when we left.

At the time our forces entered the town they were told that there were a number of men hid in the hemp house, then in flames, having been fired by THORNTON, in which he has a number of guns, and it is supposed that three of them were burnt with the building, and the bodies of two of the dead guerrillas were cast into the flames and also consumed. We hear it estimated that over twenty men were killed belonging to the guerrillas, and only one man killed and one wounded on the part of the attacking forces.

The fine residence of Dr. THOMAS, living at the edge of the town, was a smouldering heap of ashes, as we passed in the morning, and it was reported that the Doctor had been taken out and shot. He was an old man, bore a good character, but it was reported that be had visited a sick guerrilla, hence his fate. Previous to the report of his death, a squad of the Fifteenth Kansas were in possession or his house, which they gutted and then fired; and only waiten to get the Doctor to leave a lounge upon which lay his sick wife, to blow his brains out, and we are of the opinion that they accomplished this bloody work before they left. Other citizens in the neighborhood, no doubt shared the same fate.

One OLVIS, formerly of the militia, who had joined the guerrillas at Platte City, was captured, having his leg broken. He recognized one of his captors and called him by name, and received in reply, "OLVIS, you are in d_____d bad company." One of the party then held him up, and another placed his carbine close to the prisoner's head, fired, and the soul of OLVIS was in the presence of his Maker.

MCCORMICK, the prisoner named above, was marched into camp and placed under guard. About 8 o'clock a report was circulated that we were attacked, when the guard immediately shot the prisoner, or, as they said, "disposed of him." Col. FORD then addressed the men, and said that, as the guerrillas gave no quarter, he would do the same; that he neither asked any nor gave any, and ordered the men to sleep upon their arms, and not to straggle from their camp.

The loss of Camden Point is the death-blow to the guerrillas. It was the rendezvous where they stored their arms. Among the captures made were, sereval dispatches written by THORNTON, detailing his capture of Camden Point, and his intention of holding it. It looking over the dead, the body of his Adjutant was found, clothed in a new uniform, apparently the first time he had ever worn it. We failed to learn his name.

That this man THORNTON is to blame for the misery brought upon Platte County, no one can doubt, after visiting that section. He came into quite a settlement, murdered and burned, and thus gave a chance for others to retaliate. The blood of the men killed at Camden Point is upon him and his abettors.

The troops engaged in this quick and bloody work needed but this as an incentive to come over. They came, and desolation followed in their track. If our citizens do not want the renewal of the scenes of Camden reenacted here, let them drive the guerrillas from our midst, for if they do not, these troops will be sent here to do for them. We are able to take care of ourselves, and should do it.

The flag captured was a regular Confederate banner, and worked upon it were the words "Protection to Missouri."

On the morning of Thursday, the main portion of the command left in the direction of Platte City, and a detachment of the Fifteenth Kansas and Capt. CLAGGETT's company were detailed as guard to the wounded Colorado men into Weston, and arrived at that place about noon. Capt. C.'s company then came on to this place. It was generally supposed when we left that Platte City would be burned and pillaged.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2011, 05:23:37 PM »
No subdjoe, I did not say any of the things you asked. You can go back and read what I said. Are you saying the butchering of the free state people in Kansas by the proslavery forces was ok? You and several others on this board play the victim card when it suits your purpose, but overlook or downplay wrongs committed by proslavery forces.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 05:46:58 PM »
Is this the author of the first article in this thread?

http://www.scvva.org/TimManningBio.html

If so, I question his objectivity when doing his research:

Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2011, 06:56:33 PM »
Is this the author of the first article in this thread?

http://www.scvva.org/TimManningBio.html

If so, I question his objectivity when doing his research:



And?  Is your treatment of this subject objective?  You seem to be nothing but an apologist for Lincoln.  If he can cite verifiable sources, does that invalidate them? 


Quote
No subdjoe, I did not say any of the things you asked. You can go back and read what I said.

I did read what you wrote.  You seemed to write off the southern civilian deaths as something that "just happens" totally ignoring that, even without the info in the starter post, it is obvious that the federals were waging a genocidal war against the south as a matter of national policy with the knowlege and approval of the president.  I'm not denying that in some places some commanders, like Quantrelle, committed atrocities.  But that was decidedly NOT national policy.   But, I'm sure that the Lincoln apologists here will claim that there is no difference at all.   

I guess the bombing of Dresden is exactly like the Final Solution too.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2011, 11:52:49 PM »
subdjoe

You said: "You seemed to write off the southern civilian deaths as something that "just happens" totally ignoring that, even without the info in the starter post, it is obvious that the federals were waging a genocidal war against the south as a matter of national policy with the knowlege and approval of the president."

That does not seem obvious to me at all.
Act the way you would like to be, and soon you will be the way you act.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 12:01:07 AM »
From the St. Joseph Herald, July 16.

From passengers who arrived last night from below, we learn Platte City was almost destroyed yesterday morning by the Federal troops. Not over half the houses were left standing. The Methodist Church, a fine building, the Sentinel printing office, and the three-story brick block in which it was located, together with many business and dwelling-houses are all in ashes. Thus has vengeance, swift and dire, been visited upon a people who not only basely and cowardly surrendered themselves to THORNTON's thieves and murderers, but who also welcomed the villains with every demonstration of affection and delight.

The town was a nest-hole of treason. Not over a half dozen Union families residing there. Desolation and destruction have swept over it, and if the report brought us be true, the work has been most thoroughly performed. While we fear the few Union men of the place have been caused to suffer in property, and perhaps in life, we have not the slightest sympathy with the rebels.

It was rumored in Weston when the train left, that JESSE MORIN had been burned in his own house, that CLINT COCKERELL had joined the guerrillas and been killed in a skirmish, and Mr. F.A. Cox, the venerable editor of the Sentinel, was killed. The two former were regarded as secession sympathizers, while the latter was a sound, honest, true Union man. One passenger informed us that he had heard Mr. Cox was sick at his home, and had not been disturbed. We hope the latter story is true, for we should mou[???]n the loss of so pure and good a man.

The report was also brought into Weston that the troops were going south toward Parkville, from Platte City, and that they had declared their intention of showing no quarter to any rebel who should fall into their hands.

The following is the account given of the fight at Camden Point by Lieut. CHILD, of Capt. CLAGGETT's company, who was an eye-witness and participant in the affair:

About 2 o'clock P.M., Wednesday, a command composed of the Second Colorado, Fifteenth Kansas, Ninth M.S.M., and several detachments of E.M.M., numbering 500 men, with one piece of artillery, all under command of Col. FORD, of the Second Colorado, took up the line of march from Weston in the direction of Camden Point. When about two miles from that place, the advance guard of eighteen men were fired upon by guerrilla pickets, who then fled, closely followed by our men, who chased them through the brush into the town, firing as they went, and succeeded in killing six guerrillas while on the run. After passing about a mile beyond the town, they met the main force of the enemy, under command of THORNTON, numbering about 140 men, drawn up in line of battle; but, without halting, the eighteen Colorado boys gave a wild yell, dashed right toward the centre of the line, which immediately gave way, and, after firing a few shots, killing one of the attacking party, and wounding another, they fled in wild confusion, with their pursuers close in their rear, and seven of them were killed before they escaped. Having pursued some three or four miles, our men rejoined their command. After getting possession of the town we found two buildings in flames, fired by THORNTON, in which he had stored a large number of arms and ammunition. The explosion of the powder was heard distinctly several miles distant. He had made Camden Point his headquarters, had all his munitions of war there, and was conscripting the able-bodied citizens throughout that section. A few hours previous to the attack he made a speech, returning thanks for a flag that had been presented to him, and which was captured by our forces, in which he stated that it was folly for the Federate to think of attacking him; that he had captured Camden Point and would hold it; that he would fight in every by-road and hog-path in the country. His speech was scarcely ended before the avengers were upon him, and his band in full flight from the town.

A short time after entering town a man named MCCORMICK rode into our lines, and being recognized as a bushwhacker was immediately arrested. He did not know that THORNTON had been driven out imagined all was right, and tried to pass himself off as one of JENNISON's men.



Once in possession of the town, a sad scene of destruction and pillage commenced, such as we hope never again to witness. Several of the citizens were arrested and taken to headquarters. Houses were burned and pillaged, and the heavens for miles around were lighted with flames. Late into the night the fires continued, and again in the morning were renewed. About two-thirds of the town was destroyed, but the line Seminary buildings were unharmed when we left.

At the time our forces entered the town they were told that there were a number of men hid in the hemp house, then in flames, having been fired by THORNTON, in which he has a number of guns, and it is supposed that three of them were burnt with the building, and the bodies of two of the dead guerrillas were cast into the flames and also consumed. We hear it estimated that over twenty men were killed belonging to the guerrillas, and only one man killed and one wounded on the part of the attacking forces.

The fine residence of Dr. THOMAS, living at the edge of the town, was a smouldering heap of ashes, as we passed in the morning, and it was reported that the Doctor had been taken out and shot. He was an old man, bore a good character, but it was reported that be had visited a sick guerrilla, hence his fate. Previous to the report of his death, a squad of the Fifteenth Kansas were in possession or his house, which they gutted and then fired; and only waiten to get the Doctor to leave a lounge upon which lay his sick wife, to blow his brains out, and we are of the opinion that they accomplished this bloody work before they left. Other citizens in the neighborhood, no doubt shared the same fate.

One OLVIS, formerly of the militia, who had joined the guerrillas at Platte City, was captured, having his leg broken. He recognized one of his captors and called him by name, and received in reply, "OLVIS, you are in d_____d bad company." One of the party then held him up, and another placed his carbine close to the prisoner's head, fired, and the soul of OLVIS was in the presence of his Maker.

MCCORMICK, the prisoner named above, was marched into camp and placed under guard. About 8 o'clock a report was circulated that we were attacked, when the guard immediately shot the prisoner, or, as they said, "disposed of him." Col. FORD then addressed the men, and said that, as the guerrillas gave no quarter, he would do the same; that he neither asked any nor gave any, and ordered the men to sleep upon their arms, and not to straggle from their camp.

The loss of Camden Point is the death-blow to the guerrillas. It was the rendezvous where they stored their arms. Among the captures made were, sereval dispatches written by THORNTON, detailing his capture of Camden Point, and his intention of holding it. It looking over the dead, the body of his Adjutant was found, clothed in a new uniform, apparently the first time he had ever worn it. We failed to learn his name.

That this man THORNTON is to blame for the misery brought upon Platte County, no one can doubt, after visiting that section. He came into quite a settlement, murdered and burned, and thus gave a chance for others to retaliate. The blood of the men killed at Camden Point is upon him and his abettors. The troops engaged in this quick and bloody work needed but this as an incentive to come over. They came, and desolation followed in their track. If our citizens do not want the renewal of the scenes of Camden reenacted here, let them drive the guerrillas from our midst, for if they do not, these troops will be sent here to do for them. We are able to take care of ourselves, and should do it.

The flag captured was a regular Confederate banner, and worked upon it were the words "Protection to Missouri."

On the morning of Thursday, the main portion of the command left in the direction of Platte City, and a detachment of the Fifteenth Kansas and Capt. CLAGGETT's company were detailed as guard to the wounded Colorado men into Weston, and arrived at that place about noon. Capt. C.'s company then came on to this place. It was generally supposed when we left that Platte City would be burned and pillaged.







http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40B13F93F5A1B7493C3AB178CD85F408684F9


It was a nasty business. Sounds a little like efforts to route the Taliban from civilian areas in Afghanistan and Pakistan, with civilian causalties part of the result. Substitute "insurgents" for "guerillas". Ammo dumps held by the enemy tend to receive harsh treatment. I am not trying to justify anything that happened, but it sounds like violent acts were committed by both sides.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2011, 07:21:27 AM »
GERMAN PRIDE

‘Civil War’ series at New Ulm library to show German contributions to war



By Jean Lundquist

Special to The Free Press

NEW ULM — Steeped in German heritage, many New Ulm residents are proud of their history. And an upcom­ing installment of the “Civil War and More” series at the New Ulm Public Library may give residents a few more rea­sons to look back with pride.

At 6 p.m. Tuesdays, episodes of the Ken Burns PBS documentary “ The Civil War” are shown on a 6-by-9 screen, followed by a brief presenta­tion of other Civil War history by Library Director Larry Hlavsa. The one exception will be Jan. 18, when local histori­an Denny Warta will provide information on the role German Americans played in the Civil War — the only pres­entation that will have a local angle considering New Ulm’s German heritage.

Warta says the importance of German-speaking soldiers in the war has been ignored because of the role of Germany in the two world wars. He said it was a combi­nation of beliefs, culture and personal history that made the Germans good soldiers.

“Germans were anti-slavery as a group, and (President) Lincoln’s strongest support came from Germans in America. They could not imag­ine a free country with slav­ery,” Warta said.

Warta calls the mass emi­gration of Germans to America after a 1848 revolu­tion “ the first German brain drain to the United States.”

That year, many German intel­lectuals gathered in Europe hoping to create a German state modeled after the United States, complete with its Constitution and Bill of Rights. The Prussian Kaiser sent his army to quash the effort, Warta said, and many of the people involved fled to America. Some found their way to Minnesota and founded the German city of New Ulm.

Other so- called “1848- ers” settled in southern states, where they found life much more difficult when the Civil War erupted, Warta said. In addition to being against slav­ery, Germans also take the swearing of an oath very seri­ously. These people had taken a vow to support the Union when they arrived in this country and were not in favor of secession, he said.

As such, they refused to fight against Union soldiers.

The combination of beliefs and culture led to the lynching of a total of 150 German men and boys in Fredericksburg, Texas, when they refused to take a new oath to the Confederacy, Warta said. In Comfort, Texas, 36 young German-her­itage men decided to escape across the Rio Grande, make their way to New York and join the Union army. A traitor learned of the plans, Warta said, and informed the Confederate Army. All 36 were killed and later buried in a mass grave.Warta said a monument to the men was placed at the gravesite, with the words “ Treue der Union,” or True to the Union, engraved on it.

Warta said it is the only monu­ment dedicated to the Union in the former Confederate ter­ritory.

Meanwhile, the Germans who had settled in New Ulm were quick to organize and go to war for the Union, many fighting at Gettysburg.

“New Ulm area soldiers fought heroically at Shiloh,” Warta said, where a monu­ment recognizes their contri­bution.

The Battle of Shiloh is among the bloodiest of all American battles; nearly 24,000 soldiers died during two days of fighting in April of 1862.

Warta said shortly after the battle, New Ulm soldiers head­ed back to Minnesota to defend their own homes, as the Dakota Conflict was break­ing out.

Both Warta and Hlavsa say the “Civil War and More” series is a chance to add more depth and understanding to a time that still fascinates Americans.

“ There are Civil War re­enactors all across the coun­try,” Hlavsa said.






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Submitted photos

At 6 p.m. Tuesdays, episodes of Ken Burns’ PBS documentary “ The Civil War” are shown at the New Ulm Public Library.

One upcoming evening in the series will focus on Germans’ part in the Civil War. The Civil War took place from 1861 to 1865.





 
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2011, 07:32:45 AM »
Sounds like an excellent strategy. If you detroy the capability to make supplies, no need to even cut the supply lines.
Same Strategy that was employed during the bombing campaings of WWII.
Destroy the factory and either scatter or kill the workers and nothing can be made.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2011, 08:29:15 AM »
They say it take 3 behind the lines to support one on the front line . So who is not part of the war effort ? the guys feeding the soilder ? sending ammo ? making war tools ? producing fuel for tanks ? Killing soilders does not stop a country from making war. Destorying its infastructure and ablity to produce war material does.
In WW2 did they drop the atomic bomb on the front line or the production areas ? When fighting for ones life or life of ones country it would seem effective trumps acceptable every time.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2011, 10:04:19 AM »
Cool I live right by New Ulm. Should see defenders monument in the middle of town.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2011, 11:56:29 AM »
Quote
They say it take 3 behind the lines to support one on the front line . So who is not part of the war effort ? the guys feeding the soilder ? sending ammo ? making war tools ? producing fuel for tanks ? Killing soilders does not stop a country from making war. Destorying its infastructure and ablity to produce war material does.
In WW2 did they drop the atomic bomb on the front line or the production areas ? When fighting for ones life or life of ones country it would seem effective trumps acceptable every time.


Maybe it's just me, but I see a huge difference between an enemy that makes a sneak attack, is bent on dominating its neighbors and violates all the constraints of "civilized" warfare, and an enemy that basically just wants to be left alone.  Unless of course it makes sense to murder the women and children of those that you just want back in the fold.   >:(
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2011, 02:49:39 PM »
Quote
They say it take 3 behind the lines to support one on the front line . So who is not part of the war effort ? the guys feeding the soilder ? sending ammo ? making war tools ? producing fuel for tanks ? Killing soilders does not stop a country from making war. Destorying its infastructure and ablity to produce war material does.
In WW2 did they drop the atomic bomb on the front line or the production areas ? When fighting for ones life or life of ones country it would seem effective trumps acceptable every time.


Maybe it's just me, but I see a huge difference between an enemy that makes a sneak attack, is bent on dominating its neighbors and violates all the constraints of "civilized" warfare, and an enemy that basically just wants to be left alone.  Unless of course it makes sense to murder the women and children of those that you just want back in the fold.   >:(
Wait the whole idea of Calvary at the time was to beable to make recon, screen the flanks and to make lightning attacks into depots and capture or destroy the war material.  There were many time the rail roads were torn up the ties burned and the rails heated and bent around telegraph poles to keep from having the rail put back together.  The Union did not line up southerners and make them pose for rifle fire.  They burned fields and grain storage, stole horses, and cattle.  Most of the deaths of the civilians were caused by starvation, lack of medicine, or being in the wrong place.  Gone were the days of fighting on a field out side of town for the town.  The defenders of the town were the ones that put the civilians in harms way.  digging in and fortifying Vicksburgs for example made all inside it a combatant.  had the Southern Army not fortified the hights of the city to block the river the town would not have had to be taken.  So are the Northern generals wrong for seiging Vickberg or ar the Southern generals wrong for fortifying a town and putting all the civilains in the line of fire?  
The South was not immune from making raids either.  The battle of Gettysberg started all about the South trying to march into the North to raid factories, farms and munitions stores.
While most of the fighting took place in the Southern states the Southern army picked towns to defend putting civilians in harms way.
The civil war was a throw back to medevil war where it was total war.  It was not a war like in the early chapters of the bible where everyone on the loosing side was killed.
In WWII lessons were lerned from WWI that there will be a stand still as long as new troops and supplies can be brought to the front.  The weapons were more advanced than the tactics.  In WWII ending the ability of the enemy to produce weapons and being able to produce more guns, bullets, food, planes, tanks, ships, and fuel for them is what won.
OH and you never drop a Nuke on the front lines.  Too close to your troops.  You drop large bombs on troops concentrations, training grounds, factories, and other high value targets to stop them.  With the Japanese in the 30 and 40's the military coruption of the culture and religeon of japan and the willing ness to die for the emperor is what caused the use of not one but two nukes to end the war and save millions of lives on both sides.  only 10% of who would have died in trying to take the Japanese home islands in attackers and defenders died by using two nukes.  The Japanese too were beyond total war and into biblical where the enemy was better killed or enslaved then beaten and brought into the fold under Japan. 

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2011, 02:58:16 PM »
More proof for the Lincoln lovers that he was a mass murderer and pure killer. Its been known for a long time that Lincoln himself directed Grant to target civilians. Shelby Foote, one of the famous historians said Lincoln was a genius. I guess he must have condoned the use of civilians as military targets.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2011, 02:26:16 AM »
Quote
They say it take 3 behind the lines to support one on the front line . So who is not part of the war effort ? the guys feeding the soilder ? sending ammo ? making war tools ? producing fuel for tanks ? Killing soilders does not stop a country from making war. Destorying its infastructure and ablity to produce war material does.
In WW2 did they drop the atomic bomb on the front line or the production areas ? When fighting for ones life or life of ones country it would seem effective trumps acceptable every time.


Maybe it's just me, but I see a huge difference between an enemy that makes a sneak attack, is bent on dominating its neighbors and violates all the constraints of "civilized" warfare, and an enemy that basically just wants to be left alone.  Unless of course it makes sense to murder the women and children of those that you just want back in the fold.   >:(

I don't think they wanted the people , the north had enough already. They wanted a cheap sourse of raw material.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2011, 07:12:09 AM »
Hi Cabin4
You said: "Its been known for a long time that Lincoln himself directed Grant to target civilians."
Do you have any reference material to support that statement?
Thanks!
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2011, 08:46:49 AM »
The Real Lincoln by Thomas DiLorenzo's: Assesment of Chapter 7

The theme of chapter seven is primarily centered around Lincoln's waging war on civilians. Lincoln even passed an order that seemed to protect civilians. The Lieber Code "contained a piece of Lincoln rhetoric at the very end that permitted military commanders to completely ignore the code if the situation at hand deemed it necessary in the commander's opinion" (176). Therefore, soldiers could do as they pleased even at civilians' expense so long as the commander approved. This is yet another example of Lincoln pretending to take action. DiLorenzo concludes that waging war on civilians had to have been a deliberate effort on Lincoln's behalf because so many of his generals, such as Sherman, were doing it (180-181). These actions were aimed directly at the civilians. As proof, DiLorenzo offers Colonel Beatty's orders: "Every time the telegraph wire was cut we would burn a house; every time a train was fired upon we would hang a man; and we would continue to do so until every house was burned and every man hanged between Decatur and Bridgeport" (178). Sherman ordered the town of Randolph, Tennessee, to be burnt because "the neighborhood [is] fully responsible . . . all the people are now guerrillas" (181).

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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2011, 09:05:08 AM »
Let's see, the Lincoln apologists assert that there is no difference between waging a war against a regime bent on continental/world domination, genocide of Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Slavs, Blacks, and the eradication of homosexuals and a war of conquest and genocide to force governments back into what was a voluntary union of states.  And that killing upwards of a million civilians, mostly by starvation and disease is justified to maintain the revenue stream to fund harbors, light houses, ports, rail roads, and such for the benefit of northern industry and finance.    No, none of you actually were that blunt in what you wrote, but that is exactly what your words mean.
Your ob't & etc,
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2011, 09:54:46 AM »
Officers will not obey an illegal order. 
Taking the war to the civilains of the south is different than considering the Southerners as combatants.
In one it is total war and the faster you can quell the insurection the faster the country can heal.
with the way people are talking here.  It seems that it was not fast enough.
Were there aweful things done on both sides, yes.
Were civilians specificly targeted as combatants- no. Were they the enemy and treated that way- Yes.
I think the Southern Civilians were treated the same as the German were in WWII.  our enemy and were things looted, did officers loose control of troops and officers loose control of them selves, Sure but there was not an order fro mthe whitehouse to kill civilians directly.
With the policy of deneying food and supplies to the front line troops it did harm civilians but not as a direct action but one taking away food as a means of supporting troops in the field.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2011, 11:30:18 AM »
I didn't think war and killing was in any way civilized when I did it. I know killing one guy with a knife and shooting two others in the head at close range was not civilized.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2011, 12:54:52 PM »
The Real Lincoln by Thomas DiLorenzo's: Assesment of Chapter 7

The theme of chapter seven is primarily centered around Lincoln's waging war on civilians. Lincoln even passed an order that seemed to protect civilians. The Lieber Code "contained a piece of Lincoln rhetoric at the very end that permitted military commanders to completely ignore the code if the situation at hand deemed it necessary in the commander's opinion" (176). Therefore, soldiers could do as they pleased even at civilians' expense so long as the commander approved. This is yet another example of Lincoln pretending to take action. DiLorenzo concludes that waging war on civilians had to have been a deliberate effort on Lincoln's behalf because so many of his generals, such as Sherman, were doing it (180-181). These actions were aimed directly at the civilians. As proof, DiLorenzo offers Colonel Beatty's orders: "Every time the telegraph wire was cut we would burn a house; every time a train was fired upon we would hang a man; and we would continue to do so until every house was burned and every man hanged between Decatur and Bridgeport" (178). Sherman ordered the town of Randolph, Tennessee, to be burnt because "the neighborhood [is] fully responsible . . . all the people are now guerrillas" (181).



Suppositions by another Lincoln hater:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_DiLorenzo

You can read about the Lieber Code here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieber_Code

"...the code envisioned a reciprocal relationship between the population and the Army. As long as the population did not resist military authority, it was to be treated well. Should the inhabitants violate this compact by taking up arms and supporting guerrilla movements, then they were open to sterner measures. Among these were the imposition of fines, the confiscation and/or destruction of property, the imprisonment and/or expulsion of civilians who aided guerrillas, the relocation of populations, the taking of hostages, and the possible execution of guerrillas who failed to abide by the laws of war.[2] It authorized the shooting on sight of all persons not in uniform acting as soldiers and those committing, or seeking to commit, sabotage."

Substitute "Taliban/Al Queida Insurgent" for "guerilla" and how would you have them treated?

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Offline wncchester

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2011, 01:06:21 PM »
"All the south can do is keep stealing manufacturing jobs from the north!"

"Steal?"   We have to duck and dodge to keep from getting run over by people running here from the various "People's Republics of Yankee High Tax and Spread the Wealth Around Commonwealths".  That's okay with us, long as they bring their check books tho.

Youse guys have a nice day up nawth now, ya hear?    ;)
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