Author Topic: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story  (Read 8590 times)

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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2011, 01:09:56 PM »
Let's see, the Lincoln apologists assert that there is no difference between waging a war against a regime bent on continental/world domination, genocide of Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Slavs, Blacks, and the eradication of homosexuals and a war of conquest and genocide to force governments back into what was a voluntary union of states.  And that killing upwards of a million civilians, mostly by starvation and disease is justified to maintain the revenue stream to fund harbors, light houses, ports, rail roads, and such for the benefit of northern industry and finance.    No, none of you actually were that blunt in what you wrote, but that is exactly what your words mean.

No, that is not what our words mean.

Why no comment of the Confederates slaughtering the civilian German immigrants simply because the German immigrants refused to take an oath to the Confederacy? Why didn't Ga.windbreak thank me for the great find of that article?
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Offline Casull

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2011, 01:11:04 PM »
Quote
Substitute "Taliban/Al Queida Insurgent" for "guerilla" and how would you have them treated?

So, you would equate the South with the Taliban/Al Queida?  REALLY?
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Offline Pass Lake

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2011, 01:17:50 PM »
Harry Jaffa, professor emeritus and distinguished fellow from Claremont U. in California, disagrees with DiLorenzo.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2011, 02:36:46 AM »
Quote
Substitute "Taliban/Al Queida Insurgent" for "guerilla" and how would you have them treated?

So, you would equate the South with the Taliban/Al Queida?  REALLY?

No, I equated insurgents with guerillas.
You can expect civilian deaths during guerilla warfare, because the guerillas are civilians.
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2011, 03:26:25 AM »
Harry Jaffa, professor emeritus and distinguished fellow from Claremont U. in California, disagrees with DiLorenzo.

Are you kidding me, anyone who thinks Lincoln is great, a genus, and or walks on water dissagrees with DiLorenzo. Don't make him wrong!
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Offline Casull

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2011, 03:50:29 AM »
Quote
No, I equated insurgents with guerillas.
You can expect civilian deaths during guerilla warfare, because the guerillas are civilians.

Deaths of guerillas, yes.  But, that is NOT what we are talking about.  We are talking about old men, women and children.  Now, go ahead and spin that.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2011, 01:27:51 PM »
Hi Casull
The first story in this thread dealt with Confederate guerillas and their ammo dump. I posted a story about German immigrants, civilians, lynched by Confederates simply because they would not take an oath of loyalty to the Confederacy. (I pasted part of that story again below.) Now what evidence do you have of widespread killing of women and children civilians by federal troops do you have? Killing of civilians is questionable even in wartime. Do you think it is ever justified? Was Hiroshima justified?
Ironfoot

Warta calls the mass emi­gration of Germans to America after a 1848 revolu­tion “ the first German brain drain to the United States.”

That year, many German intel­lectuals gathered in Europe hoping to create a German state modeled after the United States, complete with its Constitution and Bill of Rights. The Prussian Kaiser sent his army to quash the effort, Warta said, and many of the people involved fled to America. Some found their way to Minnesota and founded the German city of New Ulm.

Other so- called “1848- ers” settled in southern states, where they found life much more difficult when the Civil War erupted, Warta said. In addition to being against slav­ery, Germans also take the swearing of an oath very seri­ously. These people had taken a vow to support the Union when they arrived in this country and were not in favor of secession, he said.

As such, they refused to fight against Union soldiers.

The combination of beliefs and culture led to the lynching of a total of 150 German men and boys in Fredericksburg, Texas, when they refused to take a new oath to the Confederacy, Warta said. In Comfort, Texas, 36 young German-her­itage men decided to escape across the Rio Grande, make their way to New York and join the Union army. A traitor learned of the plans, Warta said, and informed the Confederate Army. All 36 were killed and later buried in a mass grave.Warta said a monument to the men was placed at the gravesite, with the words “ Treue der Union,” or True to the Union, engraved on it.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2011, 02:23:04 PM »
Quote
Now what evidence do you have of widespread killing of women and children civilians by federal troops do you have?


Does this count?

Quote
According to “The U.S. Department of War: Official Records of the War of the Rebellion,” 80 percent of the U.S. military actions against the Southern states were directed against their civilian populations to demoralize the will of Southern men so that they would stop fighting.


Quote
Germans also take the swearing of an oath very seri­ously. These people had taken a vow to support the Union

Actually I think the oath is to protect the Constitution, and a war in contravention of that would be in violation of the oath.

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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2011, 04:16:42 AM »
Hi Casull

What is your source for the quote:
"According to “The U.S. Department of War: Official Records of the War of the Rebellion,” 80 percent of the U.S. military actions against the Southern states were directed against their civilian populations to demoralize the will of Southern men so that they would stop fighting."

What kind of actions?
Was it lynching of civilians like the Confederates did to the German immigrants?


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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2011, 06:26:09 AM »
The question is ridiculous. The "actions" of war, what else do you think they are referring too? Over the course of the 4 or so years there would have been thousands of incidents of varying kinds. And yes, lynching’s are one of them. Many in the Union army considered the rebellion treason and they used it as a means to lynch those civilians that they deemed were materially supporting to confederate troops. So as an example, if you owned a farm and you housed confederate troops during a particular battle, you may be considered traitors during and hung, shot, ect. Everyone in the south that supported the confederate effort were potentially subject to being treated as traitors by the Union.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2011, 10:41:51 AM »
Hi Cabin4
My questions were for Casull, since he provided the quote I was asking about.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2011, 11:02:58 AM »
It came from the original post that started this thread.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2011, 01:47:48 PM »
Hi Casull
The original post has a link to The Southern Partisan website. When I go to that site I can't find the original post. I am curious as to the source material.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2011, 05:20:46 PM »
Hi Casull
The original post has a link to The Southern Partisan website. When I go to that site I can't find the original post. I am curious as to the source material.

google books version

http://digital.library.cornell.edu/m/moawar/waro.html

http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/sources/records/



Enjoy.
 
Of course, everything you post comes from strictly non-partisan sources.   
Your ob't & etc,
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2011, 09:05:30 PM »
Hi Subdjoe
I still can't find the source of your quote.
Yes, I do expect that a site named "The Southern Partisan" will be, well you know....partisan.
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2011, 03:03:57 AM »
Hi Subdjoe
I still can't find the source of your quote.
Yes, I do expect that a site named "The Southern Partisan" will be, well you know....partisan.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D as is every site that is pro whatever, Whats your point! Does that prove the facts wrong or just the opinions written?

Try this: http://www.thesouthernpartisan.com/archives/1#more-1
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2011, 04:15:36 AM »
Its obvious that the effort here is some how to discredit anyone that would say the Union army targeted southern civilians. Anytime you discredit Lincoln, the purveyors of pro big federal government come rushing to the rescue.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2011, 05:20:32 AM »
Its a shame the citizens of Vicksburg , Richmond and Petersburg aren't her to tell the truth.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2011, 08:16:48 AM »
Harry Jaffa, professor emeritus and distinguished fellow from Claremont U. in California, disagrees with DiLorenzo.

Are you kidding me, anyone who thinks Lincoln is great, a genus, and or walks on water dissagrees with DiLorenzo. Don't make him wrong!
Claremont U is a Liberal University.
There was a Professor a few years ago that was teaching a class on Tollarance that to prove there was a need for the class trashed her own car smashing windows, painted a swastika on the car and painted other hatefull things.  She reported it to the campus police, local police.  Later when it was found out.
The University after finding out, kept her, worked out a deal with the filing a false poince report and paid the insurrance companies involved for the insurance scam, because she thought their way.  Any Professor working there is suspect in my eyes of making up things to fit their cause.
While Lincoln was not a saint he was tasked with some very hard choices.  He saw did not see the slaves as people he saw them as a way to disrupt the Rebellion.  And that at the time is what it was. And while we live in a time where treason is allowed, then it was not.  I cna see how some here view the North, the term WONA, says a lot, and the facts that came out of the war that the central government and not the states are what matter.  I can see where that is a problem for many.

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2011, 01:49:30 PM »
If I'da been the General invading the south I would have ordered my soldiers to kill the men loot all they wanted and have thier way. I follow the Mongol way of warfare.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2011, 04:16:59 PM »
Hi Subdjoe
I still can't find the source of your quote.
Yes, I do expect that a site named "The Southern Partisan" will be, well you know....partisan.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D as is every site that is pro whatever, Whats your point! Does that prove the facts wrong or just the opinions written?

Try this: http://www.thesouthernpartisan.com/archives/1#more-1

Hi Ga.windbreak
I could not find the source for the quote in the link you provided.
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Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2011, 04:24:04 PM »
Its obvious that the effort here is some how to discredit anyone that would say the Union army targeted southern civilians. Anytime you discredit Lincoln, the purveyors of pro big federal government come rushing to the rescue.


I do not contest that the Union army took action against southern civilians, for example in order to disrupt the supply source for the Confederacy.
If you are referring to my "efforts", I was simply asking for the source of the quote.
I provided a limk to the newspaper article about the lynching of the civilian German immigrants by Confederates.

I do find the following quote suspect, and would like to find out if it is accurate:


"According to “The U.S. Department of War: Official Records of the War of the Rebellion,” 80 percent of the U.S. military actions against the Southern states were directed against their civilian populations to demoralize the will of Southern men so that they would stop fighting."
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2011, 05:31:51 PM »
If I'da been the General invading the south I would have ordered my soldiers to kill the men loot all they wanted and have thier way. I follow the Mongol way of warfare.

I'm curious what advantage would you think this tactic offers?
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2011, 05:36:15 PM »
Its obvious that the effort here is some how to discredit anyone that would say the Union army targeted southern civilians. Anytime you discredit Lincoln, the purveyors of pro big federal government come rushing to the rescue.


I do not contest that the Union army took action against southern civilians, for example in order to disrupt the supply source for the Confederacy.
If you are referring to my "efforts", I was simply asking for the source of the quote.
I provided a limk to the newspaper article about the lynching of the civilian German immigrants by Confederates.

I do find the following quote suspect, and would like to find out if it is accurate:


"According to “The U.S. Department of War: Official Records of the War of the Rebellion,” 80 percent of the U.S. military actions against the Southern states were directed against their civilian populations to demoralize the will of Southern men so that they would stop fighting."


No that did not cause me to write that. Targeting civilians that are not taking part in an armed conflict is a bad strategy.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2011, 01:38:20 AM »
If I'da been the General invading the south I would have ordered my soldiers to kill the men loot all they wanted and have thier way. I follow the Mongol way of warfare.

I'm curious what advantage would you think this tactic offers?

Winning, fun, stress relief for the soldiers, monetary gain for the troops. Demoralize the enemy.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2011, 01:53:18 AM »
If I'da been the General invading the south I would have ordered my soldiers to kill the men loot all they wanted and have thier way. I follow the Mongol way of warfare.

I'm curious what advantage would you think this tactic offers?

Winning, fun, stress relief for the soldiers, monetary gain for the troops. Demoralize the enemy.

As I read this the little saying keeps going thru my mind - "WHATS IN YOUR WALLET"  ;D
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ironfoot

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2011, 02:26:45 AM »
If I'da been the General invading the south I would have ordered my soldiers to kill the men loot all they wanted and have thier way. I follow the Mongol way of warfare.

Thank God you were not a general.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2011, 02:43:25 AM »
I am only stating what I stated as I am for when at war it is total war. I am not for limited warfare it is not a sporting event. To tell you the truth my sympthies probably lied with the south and states rights in this conflict. I would advocate following my advice in any conflict.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2011, 03:33:45 AM »
Billy you may be on the track , horse racing was the sport of kings now it seems war is the sport of world leaders. Keeping it limited meets with less opposition from the subjects  ;)
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Civilian deaths part of Civil War story
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2011, 04:10:56 AM »
If I'da been the General invading the south I would have ordered my soldiers to kill the men loot all they wanted and have thier way. I follow the Mongol way of warfare.

I'm curious what advantage would you think this tactic offers?

Winning, fun, stress relief for the soldiers, monetary gain for the troops. Demoralize the enemy.

Just so your aware, thats called Genocide. Not exactly a nobel cause.
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
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