HOW DO YOU CHOOSE ?

[williamlayton]

I keep reading---and this is a carry/self-defense forum---bout a number of things that don't involve theirownselves with these choices.
#1 is price:
Now, I know the first one to post will say that the object to a gun fight is to have a gun.
I disagree on many levels. The gun---wheather a roller or semi must function.
#2 Then there is esthetics:
The police have not space in reports for how pretty the gun is that killed someone.
#3 Material:
Refer back to #2
If it does not function all of the police reports will be about the gun the other guy used to shoot you.
My choices are based on very conservative values.
If I own it, it WILL function. I am going to spend good money to assure this. It will be accurate--see the money thing.
Now---eventhough thare aint no way to report it---I am going to be proud to carry it. Read--pretty. If I loose it, I will loose one I am proud for another to put his hands on.
Steel is a first choice---well, second, third and only choice.
I keep a scandium under the matress----that is steel--but I don't like it---it is just one that I don't mind being under a matress.
Blessings

[Dee]

Does it fit my needs?
Does it fit my hand?
Does it carry well (comfortably)?
Does it possess enough stopping power?
Do I shoot it well?
Is it reliable enough to trust?
Do I trust it, and the caliber?

[JeffG]

Does it fit my needs?
Does it fit my hand?
Does it carry well (comfortably)?
Does it possess enough stopping power?
Do I shoot it well?
Is it reliable enough to trust?
Do I trust it, and the caliber?

I would re-prioritize this list for my needs:

*How close to 100% function does this gun have...out of the boxwithout modification? Can that be easily documented?
*What ammo is close to 100% reliable, and can I get a reasonably priced quantity of it, so I can have a reliable training supply?
*When I get the gun, will I train with it, if not, all else is moot. That is the only way it will fit my hand and I will be comfortable carrying it.

*How will I carry it, and carry it close to 24/7 of the time I am away from my long gun.(For me, The only preferred gun in a gun fight...)

*Handguns have only so much power, they are carried for portability, not power;caliber is not important, shot placement is.

Do I have the mindset to actually use the weapon against a human being in defense of my life, or somebody else's?

[Dee]

The list wasn't prioritized to begin with. It was a general criteria list, in no certain order. After being a police officer for 20 years, an armorer, police firearms instructor, and SWAT Team commander and trainer, gunsmith, and having taught not only tactics, but mind set as well for 19 of those 20 years. I see little need in such lists in a priority sense on such a forum as this. If it fails one item, it should fail all. I have been in actual fights, and investigated crime scenes after fights. I am surely aware of priority.

DO YOU have the mindset to use deadly force? Have YOU tested this mindset, or do you just THINK you have it?

What YOU should consider, is do YOU speak from experience , general knowledge, or what you THINK is a priority. I don't think Williams' intent was a challenge to anyone, but rather a PERSONAL list and perhaps PERSONAL reasons, not a critique of mine.  

[drdougrx]

Interesting topic.  I think if I was told that I was going to be in fight in the next 20 mins and I had to choose from a table full of the most popular handguns on the market....I'd look for a battered 1911 first, and a SW M19/66 second.....all the rest.....tie for 3rd.  The question is how you choose....something in my past tells me a used 1911 with ball ammo is probably going to work and I am sure a revolver will work.

FOR ME....I just think that either of these two would get me through ... all the rest is academic.

What was it the Jeff Cooper said.....reliability first, good sights second, usable trigger third...all else 4th.

[Spirithawk]

Well, hate to say it but price can be a factor. I'd love to have a Wilson Combat but there is simply no way I can afford one. Soooooo, I researched the handguns I could afford. My list of priorities was;

Price - Had to be affordable
Reliability - Had to feed various types of ammo without jamming
Accuracy - Had to be accurate out past average self defense range because all situations aren't textbook distances
Fit - If it don't fit my hand I'm not going to shoot well with it
Stopping Power - Had to be a decent defense caliber
Recoil - due to being disabled, and recoils effect on accuracy, it had to be manageable
Durability - Had to be well made and tough
Weight - I have the use of my son's quite exspensive semi autos but don't care for carrying a lead brick on my belt all day.  If it's comfortable to carry you are much more likely to do so.
Ease to conceal - I carry 24/7 in all kinds of situations and dress. Can't carry it if I can't conceal it. Ease to conceal is always a plus.
Ease of finding decent ammo - I disregarded a few calibers because cartridges are hard to find
Price of ammo - If ammo is exspensive you aren't likely to practice a whole lot with it.


I chose my PF-9 for all those reasons. I read tons of reviews, talked to several that own one, and it fit each of those neccesaties quite well. Considerably better than many more exspensive handguns. Might not be for everyone but it fit my needs perfectly. It's very reliable and accurate too. Not to mention one of the easiest 9mm handguns to conceal made. All at a very affordable price. Pretty? Trying to impress the bad guy with how pretty my weapon is didn't factor into my needs.

[rockbilly]

Too many “if and buts” in this question.”

First, how close is this person I must defend myself from?

Second, do I have time to draw and fire before he can do me any harm?

Third, how is he armed?

Now, would a good sharp knife be a better defensive weapon than the gun?

[Spirithawk]

Too many “if and buts” in this question.”

First, how close is this person I must defend myself from?

Second, do I have time to draw and fire before he can do me any harm?

Third, how is he armed?

Now, would a good sharp knife be a better defensive weapon than the gun?

In choosing a self defense weapon, the more of those ifs and buts it covers, the better the choice. I think that was the point of William's post.

[Scibaer]

Any well thought out combination of Dee's and SpiritHawk's list of must be's will serve you well when picking out a firearm, for hunt or personal protection.  i would add practice to the list, what ever firearm you do choose, it has to be something you can become proficient  with,
and having the  proper personal mindset is the ultimate defense weapon.
so add, weapon and mind proficiency to the list.

[WD45]

I think Dee pretty well summed it up in his first response. The only thing I would add is that it MUST BE able to stop the BG from killing me.

[stimpylu32]

I have 3 guns that I carry , and they only need to fit in 1 cat. = Do I Trust Them , plain and simple !!

Too many “if and buts” in this question.”

First, how close is this person I must defend myself from?

Second, do I have time to draw and fire before he can do me any harm?

Third, how is he armed?

Now, would a good sharp knife be a better defensive weapon than the gun?

And as for the Quote in Red , I carry one of them too , just in case . 

stimpy

[williamlayton]

My point was/is don't buy a gun and shoot a mag thru it, or a a revolver load thru it and say this is my carry weapon/self defense weapon.
First and foremost---as Dee said---YOU must be proficent and willing.
My thoughts are based on my own conservative nature----Murphy's law, if you will.
I am aware that things can go wrong in a nano. You can't stop that but you can do more than just hope.
As for making it fit---just put on it those things that you like, those things that you feel make it a part of you.
I knew a person once--that died--because he refused to have anything more than the cheapest thing he could afford--never tried it out properly and it just didn't work when needed.
I hate Murphy---but he lingers.
Do everything you can to make as sure as possible that the thing going bump in the night is NOT you falling dead.
Blessings
Blessings

[drdougrx]

I think your question was quite fundamental William!  Used to work in a gun shop and many guys who just got their License To Carry came in looking for the ultimate personal defense weapon...in thgose days...it usually was a Raven at $59 brand new.  I was warned not to suggest the best or most appropriate carry gun...I was instructed to let them make the choice.  I was told to stay out of that decision...and it was good advice. 

Cops had their ideas for sure and I generally heard something like, "my neighbors' a cop and said to get a XXX."  The shop owner carried a PPK that was 20-30 years old for everyday carry loaded with SuperVel which was available at the time.  He also carried a Colt little Dick or a Detonics MKVI.  Said it depended on what he had to wear...but mostly...a PPK. Though he had several hundred guns, these were the ones he chose and I asked him why...and he said...they work...I can carry them without forgetting cause the they fit me......

[Dee]

I think Dee pretty well summed it up in his first response. The only thing I would add is that it MUST BE able to stop the BG from killing me.

That too was addressed in my first post when I mentioned "stopping power".
Fighting guns are a personal thing. Experience is a huge factor and pratice (training) should not even have to be mentioned. It is a common sense given. With that in mind, I am comfortable with what I have, my ability with it, and my mindset has been tested numerous times. To stand and fight, when all other options are expended is the real test, and a proper arm is what will make the grade or not.
When Clint Smith was trying to get thru first grade, I was training police officers how to win a fight. This is not to down play Mr. Smiths abilities, or teachings but, it is to say that his statement of: "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck", is not an original statement, or thought, but it is sound reasoning. For that I commend Mr. Smith. We are not talking about a football game, or a gun rag article. We're talking about who eats supper that night, and whom gets fitted for a box.
I taught this thought before Mr. Smith, and someone else taught it before I did.

[mrussel]

I keep reading---and this is a carry/self-defense forum---bout a number of things that don't involve theirownselves with these choices.
#1 is price:
Now, I know the first one to post will say that the object to a gun fight is to have a gun.
I disagree on many levels. The gun---wheather a roller or semi must function.
#2 Then there is esthetics:
The police have not space in reports for how pretty the gun is that killed someone.
#3 Material:
Refer back to #2
If it does not function all of the police reports will be about the gun the other guy used to shoot you.
My choices are based on very conservative values.
If I own it, it WILL function. I am going to spend good money to assure this. It will be accurate--see the money thing.
Now---eventhough thare aint no way to report it---I am going to be proud to carry it. Read--pretty. If I loose it, I will loose one I am proud for another to put his hands on.
Steel is a first choice---well, second, third and only choice.
I keep a scandium under the matress----that is steel--but I don't like it---it is just one that I don't mind being under a matress.
Blessings

 Almost any gun you buy,from the 100 dollar Zamak gun to a 3500 dollar custom 1911 will function. Also,ANY gun you buy will malfunction. Thats why I think that price is the single most important criteria. In other words,no matter how much you have to spend,there is something "better" out there if only you are willing to spend more money. Put another way,no matter how good a gun is,its not going to do you any good sitting in the display case at your local gun store. If you dont have the money to buy it,it does not matter. How much is my life worth to me? Its worth as much as I can afford to spend and that will change as time goes by.
 In short consider all the guns out there,now eliminate any that you cant afford. It does not really matter how good they are,becuase you cant afford them. If there's more than 1 gun left on the list,go to the next criteria. If there is only one,then its better than nothing.

 Second is suitability for what you need it to do. A full sized 1911 isn't much good if your 100lb,5' tall and need something that you can conceal on your body under light clothing. Theres going to be overlap here between the other categories. If you want something to protect you against bears,anything that is not large enough to do the job is out.
 
The third most important thing is reliability. If it does not go bang,its not much good. Its not #1 or #2 though becuase all guns go bang,at least sometimes but an empty holster never does and for instance,there are very reliable 22s,but your better off buying bear spray than something that small if that's what you need to defend yourself against. So take all those guns you can afford,that are appropriate for the task you want it for,and weed out all but those you consider reliable enough to be of use in a fight. Your going to end up setting the bar here arbitrarily. Revolvers ARE more reliable than semi autos,but many of us consider a good semi auto reliable enough.  If the list contains more than one entry, keep going. If there's just one thing on the list,you found your gun.

 Fourth is accuracy. This is not the inherent accuracy of the gun,but how well YOU shoot it.  This could be hard to tell,unless you can rent one. If you cant all you can do is hold it in your hand and make a guess as to whether you will like it based on how it feels and how accurate it is for other people.

 Fifth I think is stopping power. Not those tables you find on the internet saying a 44 magnum is better than a 357,but stopping power of the whole weapon. In other words a single shot 44 magnum would be a poor choice of a self defense weapon even if you could hit accurately with it (and it should be VERY reliable) You really want more than 1 shot though becuase your first shot might miss or might not stop him. The 45acp is much less powerful,but a 8 round 1911 is much more likely to stop an attacker all things considered than a contender in 44 magnum. So stopping power here means not only is it big enough,but does it have a high enough ammo capacity. In other words,does it have enough of a powerful enough cartridge to get the job done.

 All the other things I think really go under one of these becuase these are really what guns are all about,throwing a chunk of lead at a target reliably and with enough energy to do its intended task.  If after these five,there are still several on the list,go back to price reliability,suitability,accuracy and stopping power and choose one with a mix you feel comfortable with.

[mrussel]

Too many “if and buts” in this question.”

First, how close is this person I must defend myself from?

Second, do I have time to draw and fire before he can do me any harm?

Third, how is he armed?

Now, would a good sharp knife be a better defensive weapon than the gun?

1) somewhere from 1 to 300 feet,or perhaps more.
2) Perhaps,perhaps not.
3) either a pistol,or a rifle,or a knife,or maybe a blunt instrument like a club or bat,or maybe nun-chucks, or maybe ......

 The problem is,you the only time you will know this is when its too late to choose something different than what you brought.

[S.S.]

Many years ago I chose my Self Defence handgun by
looking at which ones were proven in combat.
Not used in combat, but Proven to work.
That pretty much left one that was available
at the time. You Guessed it, A 1911. I still have that
handgun.

[mrussel]

Many years ago I chose my Self Defence handgun by
looking at which ones were proven in combat.
Not used in combat, but Proven to work.
That pretty much left one that was available
at the time. You Guessed it, A 1911. I still have that
handgun.

 I made that same choice but chose a Browning Hi Power. For some stupid reason I sold it and now have a 1911 which I love,but one of these days Im going to buy another Browing,probobally in 40S&W

[Hodr]

1     What works for me.  I will gladly listen to any advice and spend days reading specification sheets but those are made
       up by others.
2     What is the minimum caliber and ballistics I will accept.
3     What is the most reliable mechanisim and ammunition.
4     What does it feel like in my hand.
5     After I fire a thousand rounds can I shoot the weapon accurately out to an acceptable distance without using sights
       (I am a point shooter, thats what works for me)
6     Can I continue expect to shoot it well and without failure in function for 5000 more rounds.

       Price, how it looks, popularity, loyalty to a brand, bragging rights, rarity, other opinions are not in my considerations.
       Being able to bring the weapon to bear, fire accurately, and with muscle memory are my considerations for any CCW

blindhari

[williamlayton]

Like riding a bicycle---the more you do it the better you get.
You can also loose proficiency.
If you are involved in a firefight across a parking lot you are pushing the limits of self-defense as arguement---not to mention your chances of contact with the proper target.
Blessings

[mrussel]

Like riding a bicycle---the more you do it the better you get.
You can also loose proficiency.
If you are involved in a firefight across a parking lot you are pushing the limits of self-defense as arguement---not to mention your chances of contact with the proper target.
Blessings

I bet there are situations where you might have to be. However, my guess is,in any situation where running was more risky than standing and fighting at that kind of range,your in a very very bad situation.

[frankjg]

What about this...could you with a clear head and as little emotion as possible point a gun at someone shoot and possibly kill that person? A lot of people huff and puff but unless you have actually shot and killed someone as those of us from Vietnam or the Gulf war era need to consider that. It matters little who the manufacture is, the caliber or type ammo used.

Frank

[Spirithawk]

What about this...could you with a clear head and as little emotion as possible point a gun at someone shoot and possibly kill that person? A lot of people huff and puff but unless you have actually shot and killed someone as those of us from Vietnam or the Gulf war era need to consider that. It matters little who the manufacture is, the caliber or type ammo used.

Frank

X 10

[Dee]

What has that got to do with armament? Everyone knows that if you, chamber a round in a pistol, slam a cylinder closed on a revolver, rack the slide on a pump shotgun, or simply display any of the aforementioned, that the perpetrator will become hysterically afraid, and will comically scamper off into the distance.

[Empty Quiver]

When I purchased #1 was perceived reliability, #2 was affordability, #3 was size and how well I could carry the thing, #4 was manual of arms.

I have a few SIG handguns and all have been reliable, so #1 was fairly easy choice. If it was too expensive it would simply have to stay on the shelf, this factor changes all the time for me. #3 I had already purchased two handguns that in the end were too big or awkward to carry all the time, close but a bit too bulky. #4 kinda sealed the deal, for me, same controls, same take down, same trigger, in the end that probably saved me quite a bit of ammo money. I ended up with a P239, it is still a substantial gun, but is small enough to have with me A LOT.

For my wife this question was answered with a Springfield XD, sub compact. Size was close to top, reliability honestly was second to size, for her. She had no manual of arms issues to unlearn really, the lack of a decocker befuddled her at first. The loaded chamber indicater actually sold this model over all other in competition. Cost... well that rarely stops her when it comes to a gift!

Something I almost forgot was grip size, and feel. That one actually comes in pretty high on the list. It is most definitely a top disqualifier. My SIGS were subject to this when it came time for the wife to pick something out. They were all too long from grip to the trigger, she was twisting them in her hand to reach the trigger.

[S.S.]

Many years ago I chose my Self Defence handgun by
looking at which ones were proven in combat.
Not used in combat, but Proven to work.
That pretty much left one that was available
at the time. You Guessed it, A 1911. I still have that
handgun.

 I made that same choice but chose a Browning Hi Power. For some stupid reason I sold it and now have a 1911 which I love,but one of these days Im going to buy another Browing,probobally in 40S&W

I can't disrespect the Hi-Power, It is still a superb weapon. my brother has my old one.