Many European immigrants in the past did not quickly assimilate or speak English

[guzzijohn]

All the teeth nashing and nail biting over hispanic immigrants not speaking English and bringing their culture to the USA is quite amusing. Many of the European immigrants in the late 1800s and around the turn of the 20th century were the same way. Somehow the country still survived and even prospered. My mother did not learn to speak English until she started attending grade school. I remember family get togethers as a kid and almost all the communication was done in German. My church held all services in German until the late 1950s. There are many of the same examples for the Irish, Italians, Polish, etc. Remember that NYC and other areas both urban and rural had their own "communities" which the origin country's language was the primary language and they lived more by their traditional country's ways. To this day many of these country's traditions are still carried on and celebrated. Just around my area there are Swedish celebrations, German celebrations, Asian celebrations, so on and so on. So it is hardly new that many hispanics are doing the same thing. The USA never was and never will be an English speaking white aryan nation only, and it would be very dull if it was.
GuzziJohn

[Pat/Rick]

There was a church down the road from me that had German services as well into the 50's. They stopped because the childeren knew more english than german and there attendance started dropping off. This is according to the old gentlemen that was my neighbor 20 years ago. I have heard before that the parents didn't always learn english but left it to the kids. Not all folks have the gift of language, me being one of them. I never really did learn more than "pigeon" italian when I was stationed there (27months), some guys you would of thought they were born there. My german was only slightly better, I guess I should of payed attention in my high school classes. I know other folks who were the opposite, a very good friend of my family imigrated to the US from germany in the 60's and took along time for her to learn english and she taught her kids german before english. her kids and grandkids are bilingual now. My cousin (married into), knew english before she came to the US, she was a army radio operator for a hospital in WWII Germany.her daughter learned english by picking it up as a child. I don't get so angry when I hear others talking in a different language, I just remember my time in Italy, they may have wanted me to speak italian more, at least better, but......................

[MGMorden]

Spot on the mark on this one.  As I posted in another thread: listen to the words and phrases used by a person actually from England speaking "true" English and you'll notice they speak very differently than us.  Our language that we still call English (I've actually heard some proposals to specifically identify it as "American English" rather than regular "English") has diverged greatly from the source, largely due to influences from other languages from around the globe.

It's ironic that in a country that supposedly lauds freedom so many want people who arrive here to immediately conform to some set standard set of ideals, language, etc.   I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to speak their native tongue.  Naturally I don't expect any bending over backwards for businesses or governments to accommodate them (unless of course, it becomes profitable for a business to do so - capitalism and all that), but they can certainly speak whatever they want.  Expecting them to speak something other than their native tongue for OUR benefit is just crazy.  Just rest easy in the fact that most of the children of immigrants are bilingual.  If you and your family moved to Japan, I'm sure that even if you learned enough Japanese to get by from day to day, you wouldn't transition to communicating amongst yourselves in Japanese.  Don't expect the reverse.

[powderman]

guzzi. we speak English in my church. there are churches in Lou that speak spanish for those who refuse to acclimate or learn OUR language. Theres even a radio station that panders to the mexs, legal or not. All this pandering does is to encourage them NOT to acclimate and be Americans. If they don't read and speak English there absolutely NO REASON for them to vote. Missouri has the right idea. No reason for ballots, or drivers licenses to be in anything but English. The people you refer to WANTED to become Americans, most of these today do not. They want to set up their own little tijuanas and go yabba dabbbba doooo all day. Then they expect America to do what they want and bring their 3rd word garbage with them. Admittedly some want to be Americans, learn and adopt our customs, speak English, follow our rules and obey our laws, I'm all for that, welcome friend. Unfortunately most do not. We speak English here, learn it, speak it, or GET OUT. To live here and REFUSE to learn Enfglish is not only disrrespectful, but rude. POWDERMAN. 

[yellowtail3]

guzzi. we speak English in my church. there are churches in Lou that speak spanish for those who refuse to acclimate or learn OUR language.

they speak English in your church, do they? Have you been listening?

tm. A real church? Or a meeting place for your godless friends? God will totally cleanse Jerusalem one day of all the vermin that has infected his Holy city, meaning your godless friends.

no evidence here you've been listening.... unless maybe you're going to one of those churches where the preacher is a Grand Kleagle.

[The palis are godless squatters and you know it. I hope I live long enough to see Israel clean out Jerusalem of the abominations that are there, the godless ones mosque and all muslims, then ALL the rest of Israel. POWDERMAN.  

Nope, not a bit of evidence of exposure to the gospel of Jesus Christ...

[beerbelly]

It is my understanding that in order to become a naturalized citizen, you must speak English. So there is no reason for any government forms to be in any other language!
   I will agree illegal Mexicans or any one else here illegally should not have to learn english. They should not be allowed to remain here long enough to need it!

[wreckhog]

Go to Hawaii sometime and listen how actual Americans speak English. Bizarre.

[guzzijohn]

Quote from Powderman:

We speak English here, learn it, speak it, or GET OUT.

So you are saying that my mother and other relatives along with many other Germans, Irish, Polish, Italians, and others that came in the great immigration wave in the late 1800s - the early 1900s should not have been allowed to stay? Many of them did not learn to speak or read English, at least not very well and resisted learning it or at least using it. 
GuzziJohn

[BBF]

guzzi
Very true, however they did not parade down Main Street waving their  countries flags and disrespecting their host country by coming here illegally and breaking any other laws that didn't agree with them.

[Oldshooter]

guzzi
Very true, however they did not parade down Main Street waving their  counties flags and disrespecting their host country by coming here illegally and breaking any other laws that didn't agree with them.

Exactly they assimilated !! Keep your old country traditions and the language. But get with the program its an English speaking country.

My ancesters were brought to Louisiana speaking only french. they learned English to get by. And assimilate, yea they still speak french and so do i, as well as spanish but we do business here in english! Not a damned thing wrong with legal Immigration as far as I know!

Just at least act like you're proud to be here and dont try yo turn it into the cesspool ya came from!

[powderman]

OS. Well said and true.
guzzi. Not what I meant, they wanted to be Americans, but I still mean what  I said. Anybody that plans on living here has NO REASON to refuse to learn and speak English. Not to do so is disrespectful and rude.
BEERBELLY. YEP, agreed.
scatterbrain. I wanted to agree with you but I can't cause you still have me on iggy, or maybe it's again. Since ya can't read this I reckon it don't matter. BUT, If I coulda, I woulda. POWDERMAN. 

[Oldshooter]

Go to Hawaii sometime and listen how actual Americans speak English. Bizarre.

how actual Americans speak English

I lived and worked on Kauai for 5 years, never seen an "ACTUAL American"

Who in the heck in Hawaii is actual American   

 Don't Actual Americans speak Indian languages? they even speak english to get where they wanna be, politically anyway

[wreckhog]

Go to Hawaii sometime and listen how actual Americans speak English. Bizarre.

how actual Americans speak English

I lived and worked on Kauai for 5 years, never seen an "ACTUAL American"

Who in the heck in Hawaii is actual American   

 Don't Actual Americans speak Indian languages? they even speak english to get where they wanna be, politically anyway

Did you chase missile tests? A friend in the Navy did that. Laki laki. Wooki wooki. That is what "English" sounded like to me. You want some chili, eggs, hamburgers and hotdogs on that rice? For breakfast?

[Oldshooter]

Nope, I was  Skipper on a 150 passenger vessel.  Yea they speak Pigeon in Hawaii, but "They" didn't come here, we went there and took over. Started with Whalers then Missionaries. They(missionaries) went there to do good and did very good, bought up the land , got rich and wanted Statehood. Bad for Hawaiians, and US.

I like Hawaiians, their culture, their land, and i can speak "da kind pigeon" too! But I dont need an interpreter to vote or understand what is going on!

[jamesrus]

When did i as a naturally born United States Citizen become a minority? Why do i have to look past the pages of spanish instructions when i buy a new electronic gadget? Why do public school systems even think of teaching school in spanish in America? If you want to spek your spanish, french, german, russian, or whatever language of the country you cam efrom that is all nice and good. But dont force it on me, im probably paying for all these instructions to be printed in spanish etc. when you go to vote. Learn the language of the country you choose to live in. After all  "When in Rome........" If i were to move to Russia im sure i would learn Russian . Get with the program people.

Jamesrus

[guzzijohn]

Quote from jamerus:

When did i as a naturally born United States Citizen become a minority? Why do i have to look past the pages of spanish instructions when i buy a new electronic gadget? Why do public school systems even think of teaching school in spanish in America? If you want to spek your spanish, french, german, russian, or whatever language of the country you cam efrom that is all nice and good. But dont force it on me, im probably paying for all these instructions to be printed in spanish etc. when you go to vote. Learn the language of the country you choose to live in. After all  "When in Rome........" If i were to move to Russia im sure i would learn Russian . Get with the program people.

Many instruction manuals do contain spanish and usually several other languages. That is due to the free market. It helps to spread the customer base for that product thus more sales. Most schools have English as a second language class so that the hispanic students will learn English (ins't that what most of you all want?). At least in Kansas and there are now several major towns that are more than 50% hispanic and other minorities but do not teach in spanish or other than English language. To learn English is certainly an advantage but should not be required (America is a land of personal choice I thought). Just as to get a college degree is an advantage over a high school degree but we do not require everyone to get a college degree.
GuzziJohn

[wreckhog]

I avoid this by simply not RTFM. America has long defined it self as a melting pot, not some single religion, single color, single sex, etc xenophobic country. Ultimately as everyone has sex with everyone else, babies will all look the same, and read the same. Look for it in another generation.

[powderman]

If I owned a business and needed to hire a person to represent me and work with the public daily they WOULD speak English, period.  POWDERMAN. 

[MGMorden]

When did i as a naturally born United States Citizen become a minority? Why do i have to look past the pages of spanish instructions when i buy a new electronic gadget?

Because most of that stuff isn't made in, nor specifically for the US?  Seriously the manufacturer isn't going to print separate instruction manuals for every country they sell to.  Hence why you usually don't just have Spanish in those manuals, but English, Spanish, French, Japanese, Chinese, and often several more languages.  Simple economics - easier to print 100,000 manuals with ALL the languages than to print 30,000 in English, stop the press, reconfigure, print 20,000 in Spanish, stop, reconfigure, print 15,000 in French, etc.  

Also, 99% of the manuals I get these days you don't have to "Look past" the Spanish instructions.  If purely sequential, the English ones are almost always first.  Often times though you'll see the English as "first" from one side of the booklet, but if you reverse it around then the Spanish ones are "first" looking from the other side.  If you "look past" the Spanish ones in that case you just picked the book up on the wrong side and didn't flip it.

[Dixie Dude]

The emmigrants from the late 1800s and early 1900s were from many European countries and English was the only "common" language, so they all eventually learned English.  Also, the difference today is the overwhelming numbers of Hispanics.  There wasn't the overwhelming numbers from just one European country.  They also WANTED to assimilate into America, not change America to be like their "Old Country".  Lot of difference today, just the shear numbers, and they are not as well educated as the Europeans were.    

Also, another thing.  English is spoken as a first or second language by 800,000,000 people in the world.  It is spoken not only here, but most of the former British colonies.  It is also the "official" language of India since India was a former British colony.  India also had 7 major languages so they use English as their standard.  Only Mandrian Chinese is spoken more, but it is all concentrated in one country.  In most European countries English is required to graduate high school.  English is the international business language, the international airline language, the international scientific language, and the international internet language.  Spanish is the 3rd most widely used language because of the old Spanish colonies in Central and South America, and in the Philipines.  However, most Hispanic countries are more poor and under educated in comparison to European nations, even 100 years ago.

[MGMorden]

They also WANTED to assimilate into America, not change America to be like their "Old Country".  Lot of difference today, just the shear numbers, and they are not as well educated as the Europeans were.    

Rubbish.  For one, the whole notion that they "wanted to assimilate into America" is naive to say the least.  They wanted to leave a country that was either politically oppressive, or economically restrictive, for a country that had more opportunities.  They were'nt leaving their culture behind wholesale.  Nor were they leaving their language.  Many only learned English bit by bit (and many times it was only their children who learned it) as needed.  The same thing is happening with most Hispanic immigrants.  If you'd talk to a few rather than spouting off about the "derned Messicans" all the time, you'd realize that MANY of them can speak at least rudimentary English - and almost all the children pick it up.  I tend to visit a lot of Mexican restaurants and food stands (what can I say, they've got good food), and I rarely have trouble communicating with them.  Either them with basic English or myself with basic Spanish - we can usually get our point across, and that's what matters.

Heck what do you think was over here when Europeans arrived?  There wasn't some American culture sitting in the trees waiting infect passers by.  What you know as "America" is a hodgepodge mix of the various people's cultures who brought their ideas with them.  Our local cuisine here has very distinctive traits brought over from African slaves.  Go to the Michigan and Wisconsin areas of the country and you see HEAVY German/Bavarian cultural influences.  People didn't just throw down their cultures from their homeland and adapt to the "culture" around them.  Quite the opposite: the culture of this country, and it's areas, is a direct result of people NOT doing that and bringing their culture with them.  The country is called a "melting pot" for a reason.  You don't throw carbon in with iron and just get more iron: you get steel, and the end result is all that much stronger because of the mix.  

Same with our language.  As I've said multiple times, American English is NOT regular English.  Our accent, our phrases, and even many of the words we use have been influenced by a myriad of "imported" languages.  English ended up the dominate language and so our language is still mostly English, but if all we did was scream at the immigrants to speak English then I'd be greeting my friends in the morning by saying something like "Cheerio! Have a jolly good day mate!".  Ain't happening.  

What we have now are people who want to go against the very idea that shaped this country.  Rather than embracing and integrating immigrants, they want the immigrants to adapt to US.  Rather than being about freedom, they want to be about conformity.  That is NOT what made this country great, and it's a quick road to a stagnant society, doomed to slowly decay into irrelevance.

[guzzijohn]

On MGMorden's post:
I think he gets it!

[wreckhog]

Why China is very, very good at assimilating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFaCUB410B0


There is a line in The Social Network movie about how there are more geniuses in China than there are people in America. Not sure if it is true, but I know a little girl that can write at 2 years old.

[Dixie Dude]

If you go by IQ tests, with 100 being average, the East Asians and European Jews have an average of 110.  The Average Caucasion is 100 from wince the tests were based.  The average Sub-Sahara African and African Americans have an 85.  I read this a while back.  60 is the mentaly retarded.  Above 160 is genius.  I have a 142 as well as my wife.  I was the second highest in my old public school in Michigan back in the 60's.  Now, if you work hard, learn and study you can raise it.  Makes you wonder. 

[Dixie Dude]

My wife is second generation Italian.  Her grandparents came over from Italy.  They insisted their kids learn English.  They did want to be Americans.  Yes they brought a lot of their culture with them, but they did want their kids to learn English and become Americans.  My wife doesn't know any Italian.  Her father, first generation American, didn't know much either.  That is where I get they wanted to assimilate.  Her grandparents had 12 children and they were all born here.  And I disagree, the shear numbers of Hispanics, right here in Alabama tell the story.  I don't have any bone to pick with them.  I just question, are they going to assimilate?  I know the Cuban Americans in Florida seemed to have assimilated ok.  But with 10-12 million illegals, not counting about 20,000,000 legal Hispanics.  Just the shear numbers will take time to assimilate.  Their legal system is structured to the letter of the law, and not based on the English common law.

[lgm270]

The gist of this thread is the conventional defense of the Mestizo invasion of the USA on the grounds that prior European immigrants didn't speak English either, blah, blah, blah.  What drivel.   

Anybody who defends the Mestizo invasion of the US and the dispossession of Americans is just crazy.  Southern California is proof of that.  Mestizo "immigrants" have wrecked California.  Look at yesterday's election results.

Europeans who came here at the turn of the last century were much smaller numbers than the Hispanics coming here today. They were racially Europeans, not Mesitizos like the Indians coming from Mexico and Central America.  

There is no similarity between the  European immigrants  of yore and the Mestizos of today.  The Europeans were European, the Mestizos are Indian. Before white men came, they were eating each other.  Now they just chop off each other's heads. I guess that's some kind of progress...500 years after European colonization.

  Europeans came from people who invented the shipbuilding and navigation skills to circle the globe and ultimately to go to space.  Today's Mestizos have trouble figuring out indoor plumbing.  Europeans did not come with the idea of  destroying American.  Hispanics who come here desire to transform America from a first world country to a stinking third world sewer.  Come to California and many other parts of the southwest and you can see that they're succeeding.  They dumb down schools. Bankrupt hospitals and ruin everything they touch.   They bring their third world customs, culture, language, IQ's and hygiene.   Physically, they're filthy. 

I am astonished that any sane person would defend this invasion. If you want to see what Mestizo immigration causes, look at the election results in California.  Republicans cannot get elected in California because so many  Republican voters  have fled the State.  They can't make a living here.  What's left?  Well, the liberal parasitic class, that's what.  And that means a huge powerful Democratic Party and more spending and gun control laws.  They will import an army of savages to destroy your civilization and kill you, and then take your guns on top of it.   I was  in LA in the 1992 Rodney King Riots and that's exactly what happened.   That is coming again.  Much of metropolitan LA is simply No Go areas for  regular Americans.  Mexican gangs are taking over and are a powerful political force in Southern California politics.

Anybody who supports this transformation of our country is just insane.

[MGMorden]

My wife is second generation Italian.  Her grandparents came over from Italy.  They insisted their kids learn English.  They did want to be Americans.  Yes they brought a lot of their culture with them, but they did want their kids to learn English and become Americans.  My wife doesn't know any Italian.  Her father, first generation American, didn't know much either.  That is where I get they wanted to assimilate.

That's all well and good, but it's what's called anecdotal evidence: a single case.  That doesn't speak for the trend. Also, remember, you're talking about second and third gen here.  As I said - almost all the children of these Hispanics that everyone loves to rant and rave about can speak English.  As a matter of fact, almost all groups of Hispanic teenagers I see (ie, people who were likely born here or came over as a small child) tend to speak amongst themselves mostly in English, peppered with Spanish words and phrases.  As a matter of fact if I go into a Mexican restaurant and see servers who look in the 18-25 age bracket, I'll try to get seated in their section instead of someone in their 30's or 40's.  Main reason?  Though all of them as servers can speak English, the younger ones are usually MUCH better at it, and I'm less likely to get my order messed up.

And I disagree, the shear numbers of Hispanics, right here in Alabama tell the story.  I don't have any bone to pick with them.  I just question, are they going to assimilate?

It's not about assimilation.  People don't come here and morph into the current idea of "American".  What is "American" is something that is in flux. Always has been, always will be.  All of those people will integrate, but they don't conform to some static snapshot of what "American culture" is at the time they arrive.  Rather, their culture blends with our own, and overtime, after the mix is thoroughly settled, we get a resulting culture that is different from either of the two starting ones.  This has been constantly happening since the country started.  Of course, the large groups of immigrants have been being persecuted since the country started too.  Once upon a time the Irish for example were looked at with a level of hatred that is eerily similar to the hostility shown towards many Hispanics today.  The more things change, the more they stay the same I guess.

[powderman]

DIXIE DUDE. Another good post Sir. A few years back I went into a gas station and the guy came out with his muslim garb on including the rag on his head. I got what I wanted and left. A month later I went again, this time he was wearing real clothes and a ball cap. He found out that crap don't fly here. He spoke perfect English, his wife and son were there too. Her speech was not as good. The boy said something and papa said, no son, English only. I complimented him for insisting his son speak the language of the land. he said, old country language no good here. Now, that man was learning to assimilate. To REAL immigrants like him I say, welcome friend. POWDERMAN. 

[Oldshooter]

DIXIE DUDE. Another good post Sir. A few years back I went into a gas station and the guy came out with his muslim garb on including the rag on his head. I got what I wanted and left. A month later I went again, this time he was wearing real clothes and a ball cap. He found out that crap don't fly here. He spoke perfect English, his wife and son were there too. Her speech was not as good. The boy said something and papa said, no son, English only. I complimented him for insisting his son speak the language of the land. he said, old country language no good here. Now, that man was learning to assimilate. To REAL immigrants like him I say, welcome friend. POWDERMAN. 

thats right Pman, it is about assimilation. speak your home language if ya wanna, to your family and friends, keep your heritage alive and your customs, but you are an American now, live it and believe in it or go back!

[Pat/Rick]

When our elected government voted on a national language in 177?, english won. By one vote. The language that lost was german. Would it have made any difference, had the vote gone the other way?