.22LR lethality

[don heath]

Musings on .22LR lethality

Just been with a couple of mates recently returned from a tour in Afghanistan and the topic of .22LR lethality came up.  They were issued with suppressed .22 pistols for dealing with dogs, lights, sentries etc. They are 11 out of 11 failures to kill (or even instantly incapacitate) on Taliban sentries. They have now moved up to a heavy .32 load. This mirrors my own (single) experience with trying to use a .22LR for sentry elimination – which to be fair worked better than a dagger but a double tap to the head was not fatal.

At the same time there is some deranged jerk in southern Sweden who is shooting ethnic minorities’. Most are from the ‘criminal classes’ (read selling interesting illegal substances) but not all.  So far he has shot at least 20 individuals- all shot in the back, apparently with a silenced .22. He has failed to kill anybody yet and almost all the people shot have ‘delayed’ going to the police/hospital (because they and their accomplices have had to get rid of the stuff they were selling/cooking)

In contrast a little jerk in Finland last year wandered into his class at school with a .22LR pistol – fired 9 shots and killed 9 of his class mates.

So for those who favour the .22LR as ‘satisfactory for defence’ , please ensure your aggressors are from the ethnic group with thin skulls and weak backs

[no guns here]

You would think a .22 to the skull would put a man down.  Difference might be that to use a supressor to it's fullest capability the bullet must be subsonic also.  This significantly weakens most cartridges.  I wouldn't want to bet my life on a bullet not penetrating my skull...  However, if you move that .22 into a rifle and make it full speed vice subsonic, the chances of a kill go up.  Also, a single supressed shot is not the same as pumping four or five quick shots into that same dog or whatever at rifle velocities.  I've use a 10/22 to take down a couple of dogs and a coyote.  None were one shot kills but I just kept the crosshairs centered and kept pulling the trigger.  I've got my heart set on a supressed .44 magnum in the Ruger 77/44.  I've seen one and heard one.  A 300 grain bullet at 1000 fps is not much louder than a good air rifle and still carries a lot of momentum.  I'd rather that than a .22.


NGH

[Peshtigo71]

     The bullet and skull combo can account for some interesting stories.  A while back when I was still working the late shift my partner and I got sent to a shooting.  Long story short-Bad guy #1 shoots at bad guy #2 with a 9mm and misses.  Bad guy #2 shoots at bad guy #1 with his .45 ACP and hits him in the coconut with a hardball right between and a little above the eyes.   The slug goes under the skin and slides along the skull exiting the skin in back.  Bad guy #2 knows when he's had enough and runs off.  We get the story, track the guy, find his gun about a block away and him another half block away lying unconscious on the steps to a house.  His eyes were so bugged out that he made Marty Feldman look normal.   Anyways he lived.  I guess the sun, moon, tides and stars need to be lined up properly sometimes.

[Rex in OTZ]

As a kid my brother and I ran coon hounds and did quite a bit of time trailing and shooting racoons.

If you shoot a racoon in a tree you'd be lucky to drop it with one head shot.
My brother bought a brick of winchester wildcat 36gr hollowpoints they functioned in our Marlin Model 60 and my winchester 9422 just fine and very accurate.
One night in early november the wind was just right we cut across 4 coon in a corn field and a short run latter had them treed in a huge old cotton wood tree, that night there was my brother and the marlin and a family friend who had a winchester model 77 they tried to shoot them coon out the tree they settled in amongest the upper branches and coverd there eyes so they were really hard to spot, my brother and friend had taken to shooting at any lump or bural in hopes they were coon, I managed to get them to shut oof there flash lights and I took the dogs off away fromm the tree, the coon relaxed enough to peek out they flashed the lights in the eyes picking up the eye reflection and shot for the heads, the coon each were shot once and totally still when they hit the ground so we hauled them back to the truck, the other side the corn field the coon revived as they were knocked out and they were groggly staggering round in the back the pickup truck trying to escape, both my brother and friend wanted to shoot the coon again I said why shoot more holes in the skin that brings the price down, lickily I had a chunk broken oak hay sweep tooth, Couple crack's to the skull with that big oken club finished the escapeing coon.
From then on we used only rifles as they had the highest velocity and avoided light hollowpoints from then on only 40grain solids, even then useing a rifle and solids we dident get single anchoring hits on raccons
we went to .22mag and we had less problems with coon and coyote, bobcat, badger,fox.
You need the velocity to get the damage needed to accomplish your requirements, the .22 lr is too limited to do what you want, the silenced pistol drops so much velocity from the short barrel pluse useing std velocity (not high velocity) is about as weak as you can ask for.
Are you friggen nuts? useing a .22 on people? they hardly work on anything bigger than a racoon.
With all that reduced velocity bleed off you'd have to stand like 5 feet way to dent someing heavy like a skull
Somebody I knew rather well used to nite shoot geese right in the Cheyenne city park useing a old remington pump and CB's no silencer and sounded just like a air rifle.
A fishing pole with a rapella lure was used to drag them in to shore.

[WD45]

Yeah,  I have shot a lot of coons out with a 22 pistol and usually it just made them mad enough to come down and jump on the dogs. In the middle of the winter when the fat and hide is heavy and thick I have seen 22 slugs not make it through the fat and into the vitals. Now 22 mag is a different story. That being said all we ever used to kill hogs and cattle with is a 22 point blank between the eyes. Odd isn't it

[myronman3]

shot placement boys, shot placement.   

[Old Syko]

shot placement boys, shot placement.   

I've put down a truck load of hogs and cattle to butcher with both 22 pistol and rifles and one shot was fatal with the animals never uttering a sound.  That being said I've also seen the other side of the coin where the little slug just would not penetrate on smaller animals and for no good reason.

I also know a rather questionable individual who because of his lifestyle has been shot with 357mag, 9mm and 22 among others who states that unquestionably the 3 rounds of 22 he took to the chest where the most instantly debilitating.  I always just considered the source.    

[joeinwv]

There are so many physical variables involved in shooting firearms as to make comparisons almost impossible.

Is the .22LR lethal - certainly. At this point, I would feel pretty confident that just about every animal you can shoot on the planet has been killed with one.

I would much prefer to be using a rifle to let the round get up to speed. I have a Walther P22 - I do not have a chrono, but know I am losing a lot of zip with the short barrel.

Shot placement is king, penetration is queen - everything else is angels dancing on pins.

[teamnelson]

cigarettes are lethal, so is a bus ... the difference is time and medical response.

Also, to neutralize a threat does not require its elimination. For all but an armored threat, a 22 will impede forward momentum, allow you to channel their movement and control their progress. Without adequate & timely medical care, a 40gr HP skipping around the soft body cavity will not only most likely put them on the ground clutching their stomach, but result in their death over time.

[billy_56081]

Part of the issue could be that they are using subsonic ammo in the silened weapons. I good quick kill with a 22 would have to be into the brain or spinal columb. A larger heavier bullet will be more likley to penetrate the skull. I know of a friend whose sister in law was shot several times in the head with a 22 by an ex boyfriend and none penetrated the skull.

[turk762]

Hollow points dont penatrate as well as solids, expecially with head shots. I have also hunted coon for many years and had them come out of a tree fighting mad, it was always because of shot placement as stated above.

[powderman]

We always used a 22 rifle to kill cows and pigs to butcher. Bullet placement is vital. One hog was about 250 lbs or so. I took my rifle out there and shot her. I'd forgotten that I had been using some cci stingers, I usually mostly used the lr solids. The bullet fragmented, didn't penetrate the skull, pieces came out in several places. I realized my mistake after hitting her a couple more times. I reloaded with federal HPS and that did the trick, one shot, pop, flop. I learned my lesson. 2 local men used a 22 to commit suicide. One stuck the bbl under his chin, the other in his mouth. Yep, a 22 will kill ya. POWDERMAN. 

[243dave]

Lots of people say for the most in 22 rimfire killing power use CCI Velocitors.  They are hyper-velocity 40gr HP rounds.  Can't say for sure because a lack of 1st hand experience but most of these people are people I take seriously.  Dave

[243dave]

Here is a good thread on the velocitors if anyone is interested.  http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,120651.0.html

[powderman]

243DAVE. Thanks for the link. velocitors is what I carry to the woods in my mk11. I bought the  velocitors mainly for cats, I hate  em. No reason for one to be in the woods. I shoot very few of them because they are too darned high to shoot very often. POWDERMAN. 

[Dee]

As a 20+ year veteran police officer/crime scene investigator, I have seen quite a few gun shot wounds. Mostly shotgun, and, YOU GUESSED IT. "22lr". As far as a dependable "defense weapon"? I think not, but I have seen many head shots which were mostly suicides, and have yet to see a fail to penetrate and not kill shot. They were all INSTANTLY as dead as last years corn stalks. I have seen emergency room doctors rant at the lowly 22lr after having enough energy to penetrate the rib cage or chest, but not enough to get out, and do a jig in the heart lung area.
I suspect Don, that the reason for failure is already exposed, and that would be SUB SONIC velocity to enhance silencer performance. I seriously doubt that an Afghan rebel is any harder to kill than just about any good ole American, and I have seen them shot from old, to teenagers, and everything in between. One cannot have it both ways on many things is life, and bullet performance with less velocity in this round is most likely one of them. My experience with the 22lr is exactly opposite yours, and your friends, and I have quite a lot. It would most likely be the difference in load that caused this opposite experience.

[don heath]

Dee - I too have picked up at a couple of suicides, two murderes and a couple of sucessful self defence shootings - all but one involved a .22 Handgun- and the one 'murder' was a richocet that went 90 deg off direction of aim, went through a drum and killed a child playing hide and seek some 200m away!  Oh a .22 can be lethal enough, but not reliably so- we had one burglar certified dead and tossed into (an over crouwded) rural morgue without electricisty (ie stank to high heaven with boddieds piled on the floor)- he had taken 4 hits in the chest and one between the eyes...came round screaming at finding himself under one boddy and on top of a few more we deemed it punishment enough and the doc got into some trouble for certifying him as dead, but all four chest shots had caused damage around the heart and one had taken a chip out of his spine. the one between the eyes had simply flattened out under the skin.

Having seen the 'failures' and looking at the 'coon hunters comments here-  I find it hard for anybody to 'recomend' a .22LR for a survival gun. If conditions are ideal it will do the job- trouble with survival situations is that conditions are almost never 'ideal'. Like putting in precise markesmanship during close quater combat - if the pro's who train with several thousand rounds a week cannot do it what makes joe average think he is better? 

[Dee]

I think if I were "forced" to take the 22lr as a defense weapon, I would hope for a good lever action rifle, as even the best auto loaders dirty up fast enough with the 22lr. My entire point was weakening the already weak 22lr by lowering velocity even more, to accommodate the suppressor. With focus on quite, efficiency was lost almost completely.
As far as your risen burglar, perhaps a tying a body around his neck until it rots off would break him from his chosen profession. The old timers here in my part of the U.S. used to practice it with chicken killin dogs, and although I am not certain it works, the farmer must have felt better. 
As far as the doctor I would consider another.

[Drilling Man]

As far as your risen burglar, perhaps a tying a body around his neck until it rots off would break him from his chosen profession. The old timers here in my part of the U.S. used to practice it with chicken killin dogs, and although I am not certain it works, the farmer must have felt better. 
As far as the doctor I would consider another.

  When i was a kid, we had a chicken killin dog, and dad did the chicken around the neck trick.  It did work, but like the 22, it may not be reliable.  lol

  DM

[teamnelson]

So are we talking survival or quietly eliminating sentries in a combat zone?
Those are two different applications, with limited similarities.

If 90%+ of my survival shooting is to eat ... and let's face it, it's ludicrous to plan on hunting deer every other day so were really talking small game, then a 22 is perfect.

The other 10% maybe of the time against a predator, all but the most well armed and persistent can be dissuaded with a 22. Not one shot drop ... dissuaded, no longer a threat to you and yours. So how often exactly do you think realistically your survival scenario will include force on force against superior numbers and firepower ... possibly armor? I don't understand lugging a 30-06 into the apocalypse for that 1 in 1000 scenario, when my shots most frequently will be on feral pets for food inside 50yds.

[Old Syko]

Funny thing about suppressors and high or hyper velocity ammo is that there is little noticeable difference in them and sub-sonics at close range when fired from the right weapon.  It seems to me the longer the distance fired the more noticeable the difference in sound when using higher velocity ammo.      

[myronman3]

teamnelson brings up a good point...are we are talking dropping sentries dead on the spot; or a survival rifle mainly for killing game for food?   
  here is an exercise for ya....take 200 rounds of 44 magnum and carry it around for a day, then take 200 rounds of 22 ammo and carry it around with you for a day.   that will shine a whole new light on the discussion for many. 

[Dee]

Here's a better one myron. Take 50 rounds of 44 magnum and carry it around all day, and then take 500 rounds of 22lr and carry it around all day. There isn't that much difference in the weight or bulk. There is no such thing as a perfect rifle or handgun caliber, but there are ways to make the most of what you have, and what is practical given the situation.

[Dweezil]

Musings on .22LR lethality

Just been with a couple of mates recently returned from a tour in Afghanistan and the topic of .22LR lethality came up.  They were issued with suppressed .22 pistols for dealing with dogs, lights, sentries etc. They are 11 out of 11 failures to kill (or even instantly incapacitate) on Taliban sentries. They have now moved up to a heavy .32 load. This mirrors my own (single) experience with trying to use a .22LR for sentry elimination – which to be fair worked better than a dagger but a double tap to the head was not fatal.

At the same time there is some deranged jerk in southern Sweden who is shooting ethnic minorities’. Most are from the ‘criminal classes’ (read selling interesting illegal substances) but not all.  So far he has shot at least 20 individuals- all shot in the back, apparently with a silenced .22. He has failed to kill anybody yet and almost all the people shot have ‘delayed’ going to the police/hospital (because they and their accomplices have had to get rid of the stuff they were selling/cooking)

In contrast a little jerk in Finland last year wandered into his class at school with a .22LR pistol – fired 9 shots and killed 9 of his class mates.

So for those who favour the .22LR as ‘satisfactory for defence’ , please ensure your aggressors are from the ethnic group with thin skulls and weak backs

On the other hand...you could make the case that the Finns take their marksmanship seriously.   

[WD45]

On the weight comparison comment I was thinking the same thing a couple weeks ago. I picked up a box of 45 LC and moved it then moved some 22 mag to a different location. Besides the weight the extra volume makes a difference in a situation where you may have to live out of a pack for awhile.. 
Would I like to have one with me? Heck yeah. Would I want to have to defend my life with one? Heck no

[don heath]

I have mentioned this before...The san (Bushmen) living as hunter/gatherers in the Kalahari prize a decent revolver above all else. Handguns are totally illegal in botswana..but the Rhodesian government never complained if anybody armed a bushman so we often paid wages in revolvers (and since the edge of the farm is 1/64" from Botswana you can guess where they spend most of their lives)

The reason is simple. A speatr and bow is all a decent hunter needs to collect food. A rifle (which can be legally owned) is just a hassel to carry and requires money to feed. A revolver (mostly old :455 webleys converted to shoot .45 ACP) is hardly ever used...but when a lion prowls around the camp in the dark, or dad is away hunting and a hyaena wants a snack of kiddie, a revolver is both a comfort and real defence. Ammunition consumption is probably 6 rounds per decade...but when you need it...it is there. NB- the smaller .38 webleys are not wanted- the bushmen will gladly carry the extra weight and bulk of the .45 for the extra performance

In most of this world the hyaena's walk on two legs, but are no less savage for that -

[mcwoodduck]

I think who ever gave you a silenced 22 pistol did you a disservice.
depending on the design of the silencer that bullet may have been moving as fast as a 22 pellet gun.
they look cool on the movies and may work well in a mafia hit with the shooter in the back seat.
A supressed something else would have been better.
Didn't the british issue a supressed 45 ACP carine built on an Enfield frame to deal with Nazi sentries, I think it was called the Le Salle.  In Vietnam silenced 1911's were used. After everything that was learned in WWII and Vietnam why would we go back to a 22 when it did not work then?  We  know a larger bullet moving at a slow speed will work, a momentum thing.
Something like a T/C encore ( a full lenght 12 ga diameter supressor could be used, as the frame is wide enough) or contender ( screw on the end supressor could be used) that is supressed in something like 7.63 micro Whisper (7.63 Mauser loaded with 150 -180 grain .308 bullets at 1,000 to 1,200 FPS.  A 12 to 14" barrel with the folding Pachmyer stock would be a compact and light set up that would be effective.  The long heavy bullet will penetrate sentry or watch dog.

If you only have a 22LR for a survival gun, use it.
A 10/22 with a 25 or 30 round magazine would be about the same as a load of #4 buck shot out of a 12 ga. (projectiles are about the same size, weight and moving at the same speeds.) and you would e ale to direct the follow on hits.
I think multiple shots and hits are going to be the key.
I took a friend's kid to the range and stuck a mellon out about 20 yards and handed him a 10/22 with a 25 round mag.  Got him all set up and turned around to set up someone else up with a different rifle and by the time I was done he called to me to watch.  He already had two or three rounds into the mellon and shooting at a slow rate he turned the mellon into goo.  It was as if it was being melted.  Since there are three ways to incopasitate a person, central nervous system (brain or spine), blood loss (bleeding out or drowning in blood), or rapid blood pressure loss (hitting a major artery or the heart)
Even if hits did not kill in a home defense or survival senario, like the example of Bad Guy #2 above they would leave not to be shot again.
With the chioce of a 22LR in either a pistol or rifle, knife, baseball bat, or sharp stick I would want the 22 Rifle.

I have carried a very small 22 pistol when out on walks for coyote and snakes.  I did not feel under gunned at all and if needed I would have used it on a two legged coyote if pressed to.

[Dixie Dude]

Someone on another forum years ago did a test on various .22lr ammo.  The Federal solids penetrated 5 milk jugs full of water at 50 years.  CCI stingers only penetrated 2.  From various treads I have read the solids penetrate better.  There for they were better suited for all round survival round from small game to a deer head. 

[gypsyman]

If anybody has watched the history channel lately, they have a series called The Swamp People. All about some cajun's that aligator hunt. All but one uses a .22lr. The one that don't, uses a .22 mag. All bolt action by the looks of it. Now I would have certainly thought that getting to the brain, as small as it is on a 'gator, would take something bigger that a .22. gypsyman

[don heath]

MC...the brits issued the 'welrod' pistol for sentry elimination etc in WWII. My Brother has one...interesting little pistol. Built as a silenced weapon, with the magazine forming the pistol grip and the trigger is just a bar sticking out under the 'tube'. Essentially a bolt action..rotate the knurled piece at the back of the tube to unlock, - cycle action' and turn knurled bit clockwise to lock. Sights are goot fixed ones on top.

Chinese took this a bit further - they have both silenced SMGs and pistols for a rimless version of the .32- purpose built assasination weapons since no 'unsilenced' version exists.

It was during Mau Mau that the Brits discovered .32 ACP hard ball didn't always go through the skull and moved onto a supressed .45 ACP built on a .303 lee enfield action

That said...the Isralis used .22LR and :22 Short pistols extensively for years to execute palistininas in various European countries...and the one I tried for sentry elimination was 'on loan' from the israli embassy...Even came with the correct ammo ..solids that were just subsonic from the pistols 6" barrel.