LEUPOLD

[Brithunter]

Wow is all I got to say, this thread sure went down the slippery slope.     . Even poor swampy got into that one.

Brit, you forget to thank us colonists. If it were not for us you would be speaking German right now.

Of course you forgot the important war that happened in 1860 and is still going on in parts of the good ole USA..


Regards,

Ahhh pastorp the War of Northern Aggression    apart from supplying a market for the .577 Enfields was not really of import to Britain as I understand it. As for speaking German well it's true the US did help but as usual were very late to the party and some old soldiers I used to know, they have passed now  , claimed the only good American soldier was a dead one as then you could take his boots (British boots were not as good in the jungles as the American ones...Shhhh). This came from a friends father who served in the far east and in fact was stationed as a regular in India prior to the outbreak of WW2 and he was one of those unfortunate ones to be trapped and cut off by the Japanese in "The Box" for something like 3 years. My father will not talk about the war much but he too was in the far east, India, Burhma, Malaya and Java. He got back to the UK in 47 I believe but did not join up until 41 as before that he was making bits for Brens, Vickers and Browning machine Guns. Johns dad did not get back to the UK until about 48/49 as he was in Berlin for the air lift and helping in occupied Germay as due to their health after coming out of the jungles they were not considered fit to be seen by the public and was not allowed home until he was considered fit enough to be seen by the public.

WW1 the US came in with only a bit over a year to go an if the Japanese had not bomed Pearl it's doubtful that they would have come into WW2 at all. One grandfather (Dads father) was in a reserved occupation for WW2 being a farm foreman but served with the infantry in WW1 the other (Mothers dad)  was recalled to the Navy and did several convoys to Russia in a tiny mine layer/sweeper. He had already done his time in WW1 in the navy but was an officer so was on the reservist list. We have a photo of him and some of the other officers taken on ship with King George. It's currently with Mothers brother who is getting it copied. Her eldest brother joined the navy as a boy in WW2 and did 51 years service until they forcably retired him. The other two brothers also served in the navy it's a family tradition on her side going back to the 1600's and one of her direct ancestors was one of the Queens privateers who attacked the Spanish galleons and armada.

There is still some resentment in some of the old age pensioners over the US service men who were here.  Some did not behave very well it seems. Around where we live now there were quite a few as this is Bomber country and there were lots of airfields and emegency landing strips in this part of Englang. One is partly preserved and that's East Kirkby airfield which was a Lancaster base for most of WW2. The Battle of Britian Memorial flight is based soem 20 miles from here. Spitfires, Hurricanes a Lancaster and a Dakota DC3 is what it's made up of and yes they all fly. Oh I have a friend who lives up the road and one of his uncles who wasa  farm worker was driving a lend lease tractor near the sea wall when a B24 came in all shot the bits and as it came over low struggling to keep air born one of the engines fell out and hit him and the tractor. Talk about bad luck but his time must have been up.

[williamlayton]

Brithunter
Don't let 'em get you down. History is hardly a learning experience as it is a research experience. I don't like to be told what to believe---I would rather err on the side of me making my own mistakes.
As far as the War of Independance is concerned--it was an inevitable war--bound to happen--you Brits were left fighting on two fronts (again)--had too loose one of them---you were fortunate too keep Canada.
Stocks and scopes--I am rather new to scopes--but I am beginning to understand heigth and relief.
I may be in the camp of higher rings before it is over---may have to do with facial build.
I would like to hear more on this--if we can forget the scrape of yesteryear.
Are we saying that a stock must be built for the face??
Are we saying that the lower the scope mounts the better??
The other fighting can go in the pot-bellied stove---I like the different sides of history to come out.
As far as SWAMPY goes---nobody does the gasoline on a fire thing better that that old Christian.
I got a chuckle out of your last comment, Swamp.
Blessings

[Drilling Man]

As for speaking German well it's true the US did help but as usual were very late to the party

  Why not?  It was YOUR party ------> s...  If we had not shown at all, your life, (you may of not even had one) would be VERY much different right now, and not for the better.

  Then there's saving your bacon in the Falklands, another time that without our help, you would have lost ANOTHER one.

  If you folks think that the only good American soldier is a dead one, then i have nothing more to say to someone with that kind of thinking!  Unbelievable!  You have just lowered yourself to swamp gas level!

  Byron has it right, you should be thanking us!

  DM

[pastorp]

William, you can't get a Englishman down, they love this kind of humor. My wifes sister married one. He thinks the whole world is a joke. He & I go back & forth like this all the time. Stiff upper lip and a very dry since of humor are who they are.  . All in good fun old boy.

Well this has been interesting conversation for me at least. Maybe some day I'll get to visit the motherland.

Regards,

[Brithunter]

As for speaking German well it's true the US did help but as usual were very late to the party

  Why not?  It was YOUR party ------> s...  If we had not shown at all, your life, (you may of not even had one) would be VERY much different right now, and not for the better.

  Then there's saving your bacon in the Falklands, another time that without our help, you would have lost ANOTHER one.

  If you folks think that the only good American soldier is a dead one, then i have nothing more to say to someone with that kind of thinking!  Unbelievable!  You have just lowered yourself to swamp gas level!

  Byron has it right, you should be thanking us!

  DM

DM, Let me get this correct we should thank you what just every morning or at every breathe?

As I pointed out yes the US did join in both wars however Britain paid heavily for such help and usually had it thrown back in our faces like now. Lend lease nearly bankrupt this nation and yes every drop of blood money was repaid unlike other nations who renaged on their payments. I doubt you know and expect that you care even less but Britain still had rationing on certain things until 1959. Most Americans don't know what rationing is about never havinghad to endure it that I am aware of.

Also I quoted the words of an old vetern, one who fought the entire length of WW2, it was his words that I wrote down not mine own. Sadly I cannot ask him why he had such things to say as he died of heart failure some 8 years ago whilst lifting a piece of garden machinery to his bench to service it.

If we had not shown at all, your life, (you may of not even had one) would be VERY much different right now, and not for the better.

 quote]

Sorry I was not aware that you were gifted with the crystal ball however it seems that you must be to be able to make such a statement.  Oh and just how did the US help with the Falklands conflict?

[Drilling Man]

DM, Let me get this correct we should thank you what just every morning or at every breathe?

  aaaaww, every time you feel the need to "dis" us, will suffice!  That should be plenty often enough!

Sorry I was not aware that you were gifted with the crystal ball however it seems that you must be to be able to make such a statement.

  All ANYONE needs, to know that, is a little grey matter between their ears!

Oh and just how did the US help with the Falklands conflict?

  Maggie asked for (and got) unlimited war materials from us.  We also flew recon missions, and our AWAX planes flew over the area 24/7 giving your military live instant info, along with relayed sat. images.  Do ya think that helped ya any???  Maggie later stated that she "couldn't have done it without our help".  I think she knew what she was talking about!

  And "yes" you paid your Faukland war purchases in full...

  I'm done with you, i think i'll take the advice of those that emialed me, telling me to ignore you!  It has worked for swamp gas, so it should work for you too!

  DM

[cwlongshot]

I'm done with you, I think I'll take the advice of those that emailed me, telling me to ignore you!  DM

Good show, DM  

Some very smart cookies here about's.

CW

[bluebayou]

uh, I have been gone for awhile but has this forum turned into AR15.com?  What's with all of the hostility?  What's with all of the off-topic discussion?

[Swampman]

Cool I'm being ignored.

[Oldshooter]

uh, I have been gone for awhile but has this forum turned into AR15.com?  What's with all of the hostility?  What's with all of the off-topic discussion?

no kiddn huh!  you'd think this was the pot bellied stove or sumpn! 

[williamlayton]

Being ignored is the ultimate answer when one means I can't think on that level.
GB---don't call them English---has survived so much longer than the U.S. it is silly to say that  they owe us anything.
In fact I would say that the world--and democracy can never repay GB its service.
Made mistakes---yes.
We have not? I recall a few times.
Actually, we seem to forget history and repeat ourownselves continually---that is a sure sign of insanity.
Brit lover---No.
Respectful--yes.
When we survive as long as they--I will reconsider this post.
One seems to forget that they had allies and were allies.
I don't think your facts about the Faulkans is spot on correct.
Blessings

[Swampman]

I enjoy Monty Python and The Benny Hill Show.  I for one am glad we pulled them out of the fire more than once.

[cwlongshot]

Speaking strictly for myself. I'm not anti brittain or English or even this deluded chap from across the " pond" what I AM anti is the attitude, the arrogance and the overall air of it. Heck my mom was born in England that makes me half English. I can be stuburn and block headed but will admit when I'm wrong and acknowledge mine isn't the only opinion. Others have and are completely entitled to there's.
The opinion isn't based on quality as I see it. Its based on what one thinks is a superiority of selections. It dosent matter if it's rifle scopes or automobiles or a stillson wrench. If it's not very old and is made in the US its not worth owning. I mean back on scopes who in there rite mind will condel a Leupold anything yet like a Simmons??? Come on now!!!! It's just to create a problem. To vent much deeper anti American feelings. " only good American is a dead one" That makes me mad. That's flatly wrong. Members on my family died in Europe fighting that war. I hold no such grudge against anyone it was war it's not fair it's not rite and almost never just.

For me the ignore button is but a door I close to keep the riffraff out. Nothing more nothing less. Nock on it and great me with a smile and cordial hello and your in.
Disagreements are fine. Inteligent conversations welcomed but this is was neither.

Happy holidays to all, CW

[AtlLaw]

On Topic portion:  I have always favored Leupolds, well, ever since I could afford them anyway.  And nowadays it's hard to find anything totally "Made in America."  But made or assembled here, it's their quality and CS that have endeared them to me.  Are Zeiss, Leica or other scopes better?  I dunno.     Never even looked through one.  Not sure as I'd notice the difference anyway since I'm completely happy with decades old Vari-X scopes, even though I've read of the tremendous advances in optics that have been made in the last 10 years or so.

I think, as if anybody cares what I think,    that 'scope selection is all a matter of personal preference based on all the individual circumstances that make up each shooter.  These personal preferences can make for some spirited discussions, but believe me, after practicing for years in an adversarial system, you are never going to change a person's opinion once they have made up their mind so there's no sence in getting mad about it.

Which got me thinking about this Dillon vs. Lee ... I mean this American vs. British discussion.     Being the opinionless type I am, unless I'm being paid to have an opinion that is!     But being that way I can look objectively at the attitudes displayed here.  The fact that one of my Son-in-Laws is from London and a future Daughter-in Law is even now studying in England doesn't color my objectivity at all.  Heck, even Kathie studied for a short time at Oxford!

To sum this whole thing up, I think Patton said it best.  When it comes to the U.S. and Great Britton, we are two peoples seperated by a common language!   

In this ... um... discussion, I would imagine we could expect the circumstances of one's birth could have an impact on their opinions.  They may be right or they may be wrong, it doesn't really matter, they are just opinions of the individual.  And opinions are, as I have said before, like butts.  Everyone has one and some stink.  And, while I may tell you your butt stinks, it isn't necessary to shove your head in a honey-wagon to try to prove it!   

Now, if we were talking about the north vs. the South... 

[Brithunter]

Hmmm anti American and I drive a 93 Jeep Cherokee  .

Whilst it's true that I no longer have any American made rifles really except the Centurion Arms sporterised P-14 which now has a 303 Imp chamber. I also no longer have any pure military rifles having moved the collection to sporting/hunting rifles and the majority of which are BSA or Parker-Hale as these are usually in the reach of my pocket.

As I said for those who do end up visting our shores and would like to take a look at and even try the other scopes drop me a line and we will see what we can work out.

[pastorp]

As far as I'm concerned, it was all in good humor. We teased him & he teased us in return. I was not serious about a lot of the remarks even though some were true.  . If you can't take a little teasing then don't dish it out.  .

I guess, like AtLaw, the only remark I was serious about was the one about the war of northern aggression that continues even today.   .

Regards,

[pastorp]

Cool I'm being ignored.

Swampy, I'm so happy for you. You finally received the reward for all your labors..

Regards,

[Swampman]

If folks wish to ignore the facts, then what's the point in telling them.

[pastorp]

You are so right  swampy.  You just can't help some folks. 

Regards,

[victorcharlie]

God bless the British, they're usually with us, not against us, a true friend IMO.

With the current administration, it's a wonder we have any allies at all.

This Wikileaks boondoggle has hurt us bad IMO.

[Glanceblamm]

Brithunter, I was waiting to hear your thoughts on williamlaytons Reply#61...this part to be exact

Stocks and scopes--I am rather new to scopes--but I am beginning to understand heigth and relief.
I may be in the camp of higher rings before it is over---may have to do with facial build.
I would like to hear more on this--if we can forget the scrape of yesteryear.
Are we saying that a stock must be built for the face??
Are we saying that the lower the scope mounts the better??

I have had a stock belt me hard on the right cheek bone in the past, the weapon happened to be an iron sight caplock though that was shot off the bench.

It just so happened that i was "crawling the stock" as you say but also noted was my body position in relationship to the rifle...The rifle and the shooter were facing the target in almost perfect alignment and I only had to shift my seat
So that the bore was at my 12 O'clock and my torso at 1 O'clock and the problem went away.

From the standing position, (Scope or no scope) this angle becomes even more extreme. For the casual shot, the bore is looking at 12 O'clock with the feet and torso being perhaps 45 degrees to the right of this position.

If one (read me) is bearing down hard on the target from the standing offhand, The feet and torso can be very near 90 degrees to the right of the bore. The back is slightly arched so the spine supports the muscle group and the body is pretty much under the rifle with the overall position of the shooter looking natural.

If I would add high rings or see-through rings to the above, I find that I have to crane my neck unnaturallly to get crosshair alignment.

If my feet and the bore are pointing in the same direction, I can look way over the top of the scope or get a "somewhat good alignment" with the high rings. Is this you?

I see them shoot rifles this way in the Hollyweird films...I even observed my Son doing this at a young age with a .22 semi-auto...he couldn't hit the proverbial broadside and it took me just a min to get him to relax and to have him point his toes to the right of the bore. The steel then started ringing.

Sorry for the wind and the 101 class...poor articulation skills, you know. I could have simply said that the low rings work great but as ones feet moves closer to the direction the bore is pointing, the chance of the stock on the hunting class rifle belting the shooter's cheek becomes greater...Unless one would choose to use the high ring?

[Brithunter]

Sorry but I am have busy so not able to get back here before now. Ok let's go through this and I'll say at the start I am not stockmaker or gun fitter but mine seem to work for me  :-

1) When shooting prone, Standing or from the bench I always angle the body at about 45 degrees to the right of my target. I try to get my left, supporting, elbow as close to being right under the forestock and rifle as is comfortable. Right now it's not as comfortable as it should be due to a shoulder injury. I tore something picking Dad up off the floor last January and it's still not right.

2)  The rifle that whacks the cheek most is my BSA Model E which is a commercially sporterised P-14 in .303 British made done by BSA sometime between 1949- 1954. The cheekpiece sure could do with thinning towards the front of the comb. I have not done so but still yet may do something about this. Instead I fitted a higher foresight and it currently has a brand new "old" Redfield 70WCH receiver sight fitted to it (Obtained NIB) . With the arm right down to utilise the original bead and blade foresight the comb was too high and thick for my build. Raising the sight line had made shooting especially prone far more comfortable so I suppose yes the sights and stock need to be matched to the shooters build.:-




Notice with the scope fitted that the front of the comb seems to be higher than that the back. I wonder if BSA did this and left it thicker than required so it could be fitted to the owner?


3)

If my feet and the bore are pointing in the same direction, I can look way over the top of the scope or get a "somewhat good alignment" with the high rings. Is this you?

Nope sorry as I said I usually face about 45 degrees to the right of my target, the exception may be when shooting a moving/crossing target like the "Running Deer" set up at Bisley where a slightly shallower angle can be helpful.

I suppose I should say I did have some marksmanship instruction with the Army Cadet Force as a teenager and obtained my marksmanship badge with the .303. Never managed it with the cut down and converted No8 Enfield in .22 L/R as they balance felt all wrong to me.


  Now it seems to me that comb thickness and shape plays a big part in stock comfort as does drop. My sporter stock on the century arems P-14 is more comfortable that a std military P-14 stock to me anyway the BSA Model E's stock is fine with the sight line slightly higher as with the std bead and blade the receiver sight had to be right tight down on the rear bridge to align with the front bead and it was darned uncomfortable that way. With the Higher "Watson" type proteded bead foresight it's much more pleasant to shoot.  Oh I get told off for picking faults in TV programmes and films it seems your just supposed to watch them and believe thay know what's right and whats' not  .

[mrussel]

As for speaking German well it's true the US did help but as usual were very late to the party

  Why not?  It was YOUR party ------> s...  If we had not shown at all, your life, (you may of not even had one) would be VERY much different right now, and not for the better.

  Then there's saving your bacon in the Falklands, another time that without our help, you would have lost ANOTHER one.

  If you folks think that the only good American soldier is a dead one, then i have nothing more to say to someone with that kind of thinking!  Unbelievable!  You have just lowered yourself to swamp gas level!

  Byron has it right, you should be thanking us!

  DM

 Without US support,the British would not have lasted until Pearl Harbor forced everyone here to see what they should have all along and do the right thing. Without the support of US industry,I really think Britain would have signed a nonagression treaty,just like the Soviets did,but unlike the Soviets that had a vast amount of resources to funnel into wartime manufacturing for the inevitable day,all the British could really do,starved of fuel and raw materials,is wait for the hammer to fall. Its certainly possible the Soviets could have just ground down the Nazi war machine through sheer determination (and a heck of a lot of Mosin Nagant rifles). Still,if the US had not become involved by sending weapons to Britain (and the Soviets) my guess is,even if we were still asserting ourselves as we were before Pearl Harbor in the Pacific, the Nazis would have kept the Japanese in check until the Soviets were taken care of. The whole point of Pearl Harbor was that we WOULD eventually get involved and they wanted to do it on their terms,crippling our Pacific fleet and forcing us to divide our naval assets,thus crippling our Atlantic fleet as well. My guess is that without the US to keep the Japanese busy,the Japanese would have been spending all their resources pressuring the Soviets from the east and with the Nazis coming at them from the west,I just dont see how they could survive long.

 The reality is,the US was involved in the war from the beginning,even though we were not sending troops. The fact is,we were sending vast amounts of weapons and raw materials to fight the Axis. While the British may have felt the Americans had not "Joined the war",my guess is the Nazis felt otherwise. (As a similar example,the US had troops in Vietnam,but the Soviets had very limited involvement,but I bet anyone shot at my an Soviet built rifle,or a Soviet built MIG would think they most certainly WERE in the war)

  I think its really up for debate as to which way would have ultimately been more effective. Certainly the Nazis were given a chance to dig in and fortify Europe. Still,the US staying out as long as it did gave it a chance to prepare and to come in,fresh with vast amounts of weaponry at a time when the Nazis were worn down from years of fighting. Certainly there is a reason why generals hold some forces in reserve,and while it was not planned exactly that way,thats sort of the way it unfolded. The Axis forces spread out into their positions all over europe africa and asia,and were fought almost every step. They were able to dig in and fortify their positions but on the other hand,it left a lot of targets to protect.

[mrussel]

God bless the British, they're usually with us, not against us, a true friend IMO.

With the current administration, it's a wonder we have any allies at all.

This Wikileaks boondoggle has hurt us bad IMO.

I say lets keep the administration out of the Wikileaks discussion. You and I might disagree as to which party we like in power or which philosophy we might want to run the country with,but I think we both can agree that the whole wikileaks fiasco is a disaster. This guys a nut. The fact is,transparency is good,but it does not mean that every little conversation should come out in the open. Im not one to call for his assassination,as I think that's not going to help anything. It would just be revenge,and it would not even stop it as there would be 100 nut jobs to take his place. It does really bother me that if I were to for instance,get a document showing that the Saudi king recommended that the US use force against Iran,and give it to a representative of the Iranian government,I would be guilty of espionage. Why should it matter who you give the information to or how many people you give it to. This may be different in other countries though,so hopefully he will end up with a problem else where. In fact even though Im not one of those rooting for it,its quite possible that hes going to end up in a ditch somewhere. Countries like Libya,Syria,Yemen and Israel have been and may yet be embarrassed by,or have their interests damaged by these documents. The US is looking for things they can prosecute him for. They will not be so nice.

 If you think about it,do you really want to have Israel decide that your doing something that damages its safety or harms its interests. If the US finds something to prosecute him with,he will probably be safer in prison than he would be wandering around loose.

[williamlayton]

Let's look at the facts.
IF, folks had done their jobs Hitler would have been corrected before he had a chance to re-arm.
Folks---who are those folks---well it includes the U.S.---we let Wilson down. He was the main player in the Armistice.
The facts are---EVERONE---was responsible for Hitler's ability to re-arm. Everybody just looked the other way and Hoped.
Why is America being critizised for being a Policeman.
Folks you can't bury you head in the sand--is the lesson taught and learned.
Blessings