Gorbachev: Victory Impossible in Afghanistan

[teamnelson]

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Gorbachev-Victory-in-Afghanistan-Impossible-105865698.html

As mentioned by another member in a different thread, Gorbachev told the BBC on 27 October that President Barack Obama was right in setting a 2011 deadline to start pulling out troops from Afghanistan, no matter "how difficult" that move will be.

The question was asked, is he right?

I have to ask what is victory? Define that for me, and I can offer my view. But that's the elephant in the room isn't it. No one has a clear definition of Victory, so just choosing to leave seems the pragmatic approach. Like declaring the war in Iraq simply "over" ... a whole lot more pragmatic than choosing a lofty ideal and fighting for it.

Of course, pragmatism doesn't set well in my stomach.

[myronman3]

i couldnt care one bit about what garbagechev thinks or has to say.    that being said, i dont know that our guys should be over there with the r.o.e. that exist.   

[Pat/Rick]

I would say that yes, he is right. Centuries of tribal warfare, British, tribal warfare, Russia, tribal warfare,USA, the circle will most likely continue.

R.O.E. ? I am a firm believer in total war. If a nation has to commit its military to armed conflict it should be to annihalate the enemy and remove thought of that enemy trying something dumb for a few generations. No quarter. Fighting an enemy who has no description is folly. All IMO of course.

[GatCat]

Well, since the Soviet Union lost between 30,000-60,000 troops there ( more or less, who's counting ), had bases over-run, wiped out, etc., I think Gorby just wants to save face. Notice the Taliban have tried very recently to over-run U.S. bases, and had their lunch handed to them for their efforts.
Victory? Hard to say. Try to bring them into the 20th century would be nice, ge rid of tribal rule, etc. etc., but thats a pretty big order. Sooner or later, you would think that they would evolve somewhat ?
Mark

[Dee]

Alexander the Great got ran out of Afghanistan. England got their butts kicked in Afghanistan. The Soviet Union got wait! The FORMER Soviet Union lost as many as that infamous nonsensical war in Vietnam, and then went out of business. But ah yes! American will prevail there? As much as I love my country, and support our troops have furnished two sons, we need to get our asses out of there and call it a day. We should have bombed the training camps to powder, and told them we'd do it again if necessary and left, without even so much as an MRE being left for supper.
This so called war, which is nothing more than ANOTHER police action, has gone on long enough, and is, and will be PERPETUAL.

[slim rem 7]

freedom is something that a people have to want,bad enough to pay the price..
 thier war,is is in the end going to depend on the same ,,for those people..
not the U.S..

[littlecanoe]

It seems that the only way to win in Afghanistan would be to actually fight a war where total domination and full submission of the opponent defined victory.  This worked beautifully in WWII against Japan and Germany.

It seems that, as a nation, we no longer understand War because the term has been a bit abused over the last 50 years. 

[yellowtail3]

I think that Gorby & Dee both make a good point.

[BBF]

It seems that the only way to win in Afghanistan would be to actually fight a war where total domination and full submission of the opponent defined victory.  This worked beautifully in WWII against Japan and Germany.

It seems that, as a nation, we no longer understand War because the term has been a bit abused over the last 50 years. 

Totally different situation, those were declared wars with known borders, uniformed soldiers as identifiable enemies.

[Dee]

What SB is saying, is that these wars are against the entire general population of the country, in this case Afghanistan, and Iraq.

[yellowtail3]

What SB is saying, is that these wars are against the entire general population of the country, in this case Afghanistan, and Iraq.

...and they should not be. If we're going to indiscriminately slaughter civilians as a policy of 'total war' in Afghanistan, against a people who do not have much say in their leadership, whatever faction they find themselves under - and if Americans would support such policy? - then perhaps we as a nation will deserve every dirty bomb detonated in America.

[jimster]

I am a firm believer in total war. If a nation has to commit its military to armed conflict it should be to annihalate the enemy and remove thought of that enemy trying something dumb for a few generations. No quarter. Fighting an enemy who has no description is folly. All IMO of course.

Yep...my opinion as well.

We should have bombed the training camps to powder, and told them we'd do it again if necessary and left, without even so much as an MRE being left for supper.
This so called war, which is nothing more than ANOTHER police action, has gone on long enough, and is, and will be PERPETUAL.

Yep...we should have....wish it would have went that way.

save for the usual kill everybody and wipe the place out...that type of victory would likely result in the USA being considered the 'mad dog of the world' 

Yep...a much better result than the loss of one soldier. 

We can't police the world, that is not what a soldier is supposed to do.  We have killed many soldiers over the years for the sake of politics.  This was a horrible thing to do. If we have to police another place, we should be sending people in congress to police these places...since they are so willing to kill our men and women for their politics, and sometimes even try to send them to prison for trying to stay alive in foreign places.  Send congress there to police things...no great loss if they die. Anyone that can't go, we can put their office on the sounthern borders...they can police that as well.  If they get kidnapped...what would they be worth?  Our enimies may be surprised when we tell them to just keep them.

[Pat/Rick]

There is no way we should have been there for the changing, or forcing, of a democracy. As soon as that was mentioned as the reason to stay, we should have been packing our bags. 

[littlecanoe]

You guys made the point that is the basis for the post that I made above.  It is time that we define national interest and War.  They have been far to broad  since WWII.