Author Topic: Browning Creedmore Production Data & Barrel Length (Read 1483 times)

TexasMac · « **on:** December 09, 2003, 06:06:01 PM »

As many of you know I've spent considerable time researching the Browning BPCRs with the intentions of publishing a book on the subject. Now and then I've posted some details of my findings on this and other talk forums including the number of rifles made as reported to me by Browning. Due to various reasons, one being that the actual data resides in Miroku's archives in Japan; Browning USA only provided production estimates of the .45-70 and .40-65 rifles. .45-90 Creedmore rifle production was based on the number of barrels provided by Badger. More recently my research has called into question the reported number of Creedmores made, which was 300 with the adjustable front sight and 16 with a fixed front sight, totaling 316. Therefore I requested and Browning agreed to have Miroku check their Creedmore production records. I was surprised by the data. Here's what they found.

There were only 300 rifles made for the US market, which includes the 16 with fixed front sights. This became obvious though my research and was the main reason I requested a check of Miroku's archives to verify my data. The serial numbers of these are 13001NP371 to 13300NP371

What caught me by surprise was the fact that a separate serial numbered batch of
30 rifles were produced for the European market. Except for the serial numbers these are identical to the US rifles with adjustable front sights. The serial numbers of these are 15201NP371 to 15230NP371.

So there you have it. A total of 300 rifles were made for the US market and 30 rifles were made for the European market. By the way, I realize my incorrect spelling of Creedmoor irritates some of you traditional rifle owners, but as long as I'm referring to or discussing the Browning rifles I will use Browning's spelling.

Creedmore barrel length:
Since the Creedmores were made and shipped in late 1998 rumors have persisted that there were some rifles made with 30" barrels. I researched this thoroughly and can absolutely state beyond a shadow of doubt that no Browning Creedmores were produced with 30" barrels. The rumor was started because the barrel length on each and every Creedmore box was listed as 30 instead of the correct 34. I discussed the possibility with Browning and I contacted several persons who reported owning or knowing of such rifles. One rifle was apparently shortened prior to the current owner acquiring it. The work was very professionally done but a close examination indicated Browning did not do the work. Two rifles were noted as having 30 barrels due to information taken from a dealers Federal Firearm License logbook. The dealer used the incorrect length on the box label for the log entries. Due to my questioning, he checked with the owners and verified the barrels were 34 long.

Wayne

EDG · « **Reply #1 on:** December 15, 2003, 03:24:58 PM »

Thanks again!

J.W.Neely · « **Reply #2 on:** December 17, 2003, 12:46:46 AM »

I never realized the Browning creedmoor was so rare, here it is 5:42 in the am , 22 F outside, and I went and learned something, thanks for the info.

TexasMac · « **Reply #3 on:** December 17, 2003, 04:23:17 AM »

Yep, as the saying goes "they are far and few between", and the price is rising as folks realize only a few were made.

FFG, if you have one I'd sure like to hear from you. My email is TexasMac@ev1.net

Regards,
Wayne

J.W.Neely · « **Reply #4 on:** December 17, 2003, 05:17:25 PM »

Sorry, only Shiloh and a Taylor 74 over in this camp..... but a pard of mine has some sort of 45-70 Browning he wooped out on me once, I need to go take a peek a boo and see which Browning it was......

Marty · « **Reply #5 on:** March 14, 2005, 09:11:15 AM »

TexasMac,
Appreciate the info you have been sharing on the BPCR Brownings.
I just received a note from a dealer who knew I was looking for a BPCR. He says that along with the 45/70 he has one in 45/100. I am puzzled :eek: ; I thought that other than the 40/65 and 45/70 that the 45/90 was made. Any comments. I am going to ask him today to confirm bbl markings and supply the serial no. I suspect that it probably has been bored out from 45/90 to 100. Will let you know what turns up.

Marty

Marty · « **Reply #6 on:** March 15, 2005, 02:42:41 PM »

TexasMac,
False alarm :cry: .....the original bbl was a 45/70, spun off and Kreiger 45/100bbl installed. I was getting excited for awhile. (Would have been good price...less than US$1500) Oh well, the hunt is still on for the 45/90! :wink:

Marty

EDG · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2005, 03:55:40 PM »

TexasMac,
I know this question is not about BPCRs but I am wondering if you have any data on the Browing 85 hound dog - the standard 1885 in .454 Casull?

Ed

TexasMac · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2005, 03:28:12 PM »

Hi EDG,
Sorry, I can't help you. My knowledge is pretty much limited to the Browning BPCRs and the recent Winchester limited edition BPCRs. I'd try posting a new thread on this or another site in the single-shot section.

Wayne

RPbump · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2005, 03:19:31 PM »

EDG, Over at (www.gunsamerica.com) I have seen Browning .454 Casul chambered rifles. Rbump

Blaster · « **Reply #10 on:** March 26, 2005, 03:07:50 PM »

TexasMac....Since you are an authority on the Browning BPCR's, I need some advice and perhaps you can give me a little help. I have been thinking of taking my Browning BPCR in .45/70 down to the Tulsa Gun Show next weekend (April 2 & 3) to see if I can possibly sell it. I got it from an older chap who indicated that he had only fired about 200 rounds (all lead) through it. It's in the box, with the insts., and the Browning gray box containing the sight inserts. I believe it to be in excellent condition. I just don't have the time to do the required precision handloading and in fact I have not even fired it once. Any idea as to what would be a decent-REALISTIC selling price??? Thanks in advance. Blaster (Bob in CO)

TexasMac · « **Reply #11 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:05:12 AM »

Blaster,

The going price for a NIB Browning BPCR (with all the factory boxes, sights, and user manuals) is around $1500 +/- to an individual. A really nice rifle with beautiful wood, good case colors, with the original front sight inserts still mounted to the sight card, will command around $1600 +/-. If it's slightly used but in like new condition it would be worth in the $1400 +/-. The price is somewhat determined by the quality/grain pattern of the stock and forearm, the brilliance of the color-case on the action, and of course how bad the buyer wants the rifle and how fast you want to sell it. But I would certainly not expect to get that from a gun show dealer who intends to make a profit. I'd be surprised if a knowledgeable dealer would offer you much more than $1000.

The best place to sell a Browning is on one of the three well-know internet sites such as GunBroker, AuctionArms or GunsAmerica. To get top price you must have very good photos and an excellent description of the condition of the rifle and accessories. You will also need to state a shipping cost (normally around $25 to $35) and will be required to ship it to someone with a Federal Firearms License (FFL).

Another option is to post it in the cassified ads section on this forum.

By the way, if you don't find a buyer I'd be interested from a dealer's position.

Wayne

Blaster · « **Reply #12 on:** March 27, 2005, 03:26:00 AM »

TexasMac,
Many thanks for the very prompt-easy to understand response regarding an asking price for my Browning 1885 BPCR in Cal .45/70. I just happen to have access to a table at the BIG Tulsa Gun Show this coming weekend (April 2 and 3) and I'll place it on the table for sale. From your thoughts on this, and since it happens to have a couple minor dings in the wood, I believe I will place a price of about $1,300 on it and see what happens. I live just a half hour away from the NRA Whittington Center where they have some very heavily attended BPCR matches and if the rifle doesn't sell for my price in Tulsa, I'll just venture down to the Center when they have the next big match and place a "For Sale" card on it. I am very reluctant to sell it in a manner where I would have to ship it as I am very cautious about loss/breakage/ and the like. Again, thanks Wayne, for your help is greatly appreciated. Blaster (Bob in CO) :grin:

bikered · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2005, 02:31:45 PM »

TexasMac:
I own both the .40-65 and .45-70, Browning BPCRs. They both shoot better than I do. I wasn't able to locate an affordable Browning Creedmoor (.45-90). Do you think Browning/Winchester is giving any thought for another run of these. I'm sure they will sell as quick as the first 300 did, if not faster. ED

TexasMac · « **Reply #14 on:** April 02, 2005, 09:27:21 AM »

Bickered,
I'm not aware of any plans, and I'd be very surprised to see Win. or Browning introduce another run of Creedmoors. But, as you likely know Win. is making limited runs of their "1885 Limited Series", which is essentially the same as the Browning Traditional Hunter rifles, which feature a high-wall action. These come in several calibers (.45-70, .38-55, .405W), including the 45-90. And the 45-90 has a 34" barrel like the Browning Creedmoor. Only the barrel on the .45-90 version is made by Badger, which I confirmed with Ernie Stallman, owner of Badger.

The Win. 45-90 1885 Limited Series has the following features:
Finish: Blue
Receiver: Blue, Drilled & Tapped
Stock: Walnut, Satin, Checkered, Straight
Sights: Marbles Blade Front & Rear Tang Mounted Peep Sight
Barrel Length: 34 with Semi-Buckhorn Rear Sight
Overall Length: 50.5
Weight: 11lbs 13oz
Butt Plate Recoil Pad: Crescent Buttplate with Strap on Top
Additional Features: Octagonal Barrel
Suggested Retail Price: $1,585.94 (but you can find serveral on the Internet auction forums for around $1200 - $1300.

What I don't like about these is the sights are not intended for silhouette shooting. But one should be able to easily switch out the rear tang and front sights if the intended use is for silhouettes. Also that cresent buttplate is sure going to hurt when shooting it in a prone position.

AeroE · « **Reply #15 on:** April 09, 2005, 06:41:10 PM »

I looked this rifle over this morning - in like new condition, could probably determine the number of rounds fired from the rifle log included, and includes brass, loaded ammo, bullets (~1000?), every sort of die, wads, blow tube, converted case for rod guide, virtually everything to shoot the gun except molds.

I'm thinking about offering $1900. I know I can get the rifle for $2000.

By the way, the local BPCR silohuette shooters seem to universally think .45-90 has too much recoil for this game - what's the rest of the world's opinion?

bikered · « **Reply #16 on:** April 10, 2005, 08:56:24 AM »

TexasMac,
I did find one of the Limited Edition 1885s on the internet. Picked it, dies, 50-rounds of brass, shipping for $975. I'll shoot it until my 1874 is ready. My local dealer said that Browning/Winchester would not even talk to about building them for under 500 units. That is entirely too steep of an investment. In the meanwhile, I'll enjoy the ones I have. I will, however, keep my ear to the ground (as I'm sure everyone else will) about any upcoming production runs. Thanks, Ed

iowa · « **Reply #17 on:** April 13, 2005, 02:33:35 PM »

Texas Mac-Please check your PM........Problem with your e-mail address steve witt

Blaster · « **Reply #18 on:** April 13, 2005, 03:40:40 PM »

Hey TexasMac..... Re your post of March 27th. Well, I took my Browning 1885 BPCR in .45/70 to the BIG Tulsa Gun Show over the April 1st weekend. Had a lot of interest in it even though I priced it at $1325. Guy from Missouri offered $1250 and after some careful consideration, I agreed. I explained to him that since I was not from Oklahoma, that I would HAVE to run it through a FFL to make the transfer legal per BATFE instructions/rules. He didn't want to go through the paper route so declined the buy. Well I did have a lot of other offers but they all included trades and I didn't want to get into that, so I brought it back home with me. As indicated earlier, guess I'll just take it to one of the big matches held down at the NRA Whittington Center in Raton, NM which is only about a half hour away. Perhaps some silhouette shooter may have some interest in it. Sorry to bother you but just thought I'd bring you up to date. Thanks for your interest. Blaster (Bob in CO)

TexasMac · « **Reply #19 on:** April 13, 2005, 04:40:24 PM »

Hi Blaster,

I just received an email from another fellow that attended the same show and bought a Browning BPCR for $1150. He mentioned he saw your rifle and another that was also priced at around $1250. So it seems, at least at the Tulsa gun show, the going price is around $1250. I just sold a NIB rifle over the internet for $1600 + shipping, so there seems to be a difference is what folks will pay, depending on the circumstances, which is not suprising. The rifle I sold had really nice wood, had not been fired, and no blemishes or dings. The sight card was still intact. In other words, all the front sight inserts were still attached to the metal border commonly referred to in manufacturing jargon as a fret or array. Rifle or sight manufacturers refer to the entire unit as a sight card. I also had the original boxes and all original paperwork.

Wayne

Blaster · « **Reply #20 on:** April 14, 2005, 04:52:38 AM »

Hey Wayne. Sounds like my price was not too far off the going rate. I did get a lot of positive comments on my Browning 1885 BPCR and most seemed to like the fact that is was in .45/70. As indicated, there were a lot of "lookers" and "droolers", so I could see that there is really a lot of interest in the BPCR segment of the shooting sports. I too, could most likely sell this rifle over the internet but I just refuse to have to go through all the efforts of packing, shipping and holding my breath till the new buyer receives it in good condition and finally is totally satisfied. Guess I'm just too lazy to go through the hassle and all that is associated with the shipping part. I sure prefer face-to-face type transactions. Again Wayne, thanks for the help. Bob