Handi 30-30 bullet selection- Just thinking.....

[carbineman]

Just returned from a 10 day Minnesota whitetail hunt where I drew blood on a big bodied heavy horned buck. Needless to say I lost the blood and the deer got away. Shot placement was the key as I was shooting into a bit of canary grass and some minor dogwood. I was using a 130 grain Barnes X bullet and this has proven to be a good deer dispatcher in the past.

The question is, all but one of the places I sit while there has expected shots under 100 yards, I was thinking of using a 170 RN or FN bullet for these locations. Then just I'll just set up my just completed 20" barreled 30-30 for this task and leave the others set up for the 130's. Maybe with the heavier(170 grain) more fragmenting mostly lead bullet I might have had a better chance of putting that buck on my wall of fame.

Whaddya think of this? A good idea or not? Which companies 170 grain bullet would you use? Crimp in cannelure or not? Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[Spanky]

Too bad about the lost deer.



Spanky

[ironglow]

  For such hunting..less than 100yds, possibly through grass, I'd stay with 160-170 gr. The important thing to remember I believe, would be to use a bullet which will dependably upset at 30/30 velocities.
  Perhaps the Hornady leverevolution or one of the fine ballistic tips. At 30/30 speeds I don't believe the bonded bullets are necessary and just add cost.. (IMO) but others may well differ.
  Although the flat nosed rounds are intended for lever action, tube fed rifles, if somebody wants to load pointed rounds for a Win 94 or Marlin 336, they can use them ...just limit to two rounds..one in the tube and one in the chamber.

[pastorp]

I don't want to sound harsh but I think you should not shoot until you have a clear shot.   A different bullet will not make up for trying to shoot through brush. If you need to, cut some shooting lanes.

No bullet can be counted on to shoot through the brush.

Regards,

[BBF]

+1 to above post. There are no brushbusters 'til you get into Artillery

[carbineman]

I don't want to sound harsh but I think you should not shoot until you have a clear shot.   A different bullet will not make up for trying to shoot through brush. If you need to, cut some shooting lanes.

No bullet can be counted on to shoot through the brush.

Regards,

I had a clear shot for the most part with just a few minor shoots of dogwood and canary grass in the clearing. The terrain I'm hunting in is rugged and untamed. I can't take a DR trimmer mower in there like I could in farm country. I possibly did get a deflection but I doubt it. My whole point was that at 100 yards the heavier softer bullet may have fragmented/mushroomed more and possibly caused more trauma to the animal. As far as taking bad shots, I kinda resent that remark. I think all of us here know what a bad shot would be, so as far as I'm concerned let us drop that angle and work on the question asked. Would a softer mushrooming bullet be more acceptable at shots of less than 100 yards? I'm kinda leaning that way with my thoughts on the subject.

[necchi]

I think ironglow hit it with the 30-30 velocities,
 I live in Minn, and the 30-30 has always been known as a "brush gun", not for it's ability to cut through brush but as it applies to close work, jumping deer in thick cover at close range.
 It might sound old school , but your right, the round nose and flat nose bullets have been known for decades to be able to move through grass and light brush. Just as spire points have been known to easily deflect.
 As much as they try to improve the BC of the 30-30 buy creating pointed bullets for them, the classic bullet for that gun is a blunt round nose, always has been.

Always tough to loose one, in thick brush like up north you may have actually finished the animal and walked past him 3' away. They can disappear in the thick stuff!

I load 2 bullets for me and the boy, a Nosler Accubond an Barnes TTSX for the power line and wheat field, and Hornady SPFB for the loggin trail.

[petemi]

I tink da tirty tirty's killed more deer den even da twenytwo.......but it is not, by far, my favorite deer rifle, even though I have killed a lot of deer with it.  I like big, slow bullets.  The .30-30 is slow, but not big enough.  I'll stick with my .45-70, .445, .38-55 and such.  I've been in this thread author's situation and I wasn't a happy camper.

Pete

[ironglow]

  Pete;
  Are you speaking strictly about the grass and close hunting situations ? If so, I can agree on the heavy bullet, however I assumed carbineman may occasionally get onto a logging road and need a longer reach.
  Yes, I know the old 45/70 has completed some legendary shots but rarely does a modern rifle carry those old rear battle sight elevators we can flip up and slide about 3" to the top of the rails.. ..just funnin ya..

   I tend to agree with Necchi, in that even though it is old, the round or flat nosed Core-lokt or Power Point is pretty hard to beat at close ranges. If boosted to 30/06 speed the bonded or partition becomes more critical. Those types of bullets cost more and I figure,
  " If it's not broke, why 'fix' it"? ..and pay more to do so..   Just my $.02..

[pastorp]

carbineman,

If you didn't think the grass & dogwood brush had anything to do with it why did you mention that. You either made a bad shot or had a deflection....Sorry if I offended you, but a different bullet will not help your shooting..
Wonder how the deer feels about all this.    It sounds to me, that like most people you just want to blame a bad shot on something else. JMO

regards,

[petemi]

I think, finally, at almost 70, I've left the impatience of youth behind me.  I had opportunities last year to take 6 deer......I took none, simply because the right shot wasn't there.  I now never touch the trigger until everything is right where I want it.  Also, given a clear shot at a standing deer, I can dump him readily at 300 yards with the .45-70.....no ladder sights involved.  The reason I passed last year was that I had the .44 mag and didn't like the 225 yard range.  The .45-70 would have made meat.

Pete

[BBF]

You could have taken a bite out of a sandwhich waiting for that 45 cal bullet hit the deer after you pulled the trigger

[carbineman]

carbineman,

If you didn't think the grass & dogwood brush had anything to do with it why did you mention that. You are right about that, I should not have mentioned it, as it was probably a non factorYou either made a bad shot or had a deflection....Sorry if I offended you, but a different bullet will not help your shooting..Here you go again this time inferring I'm a bad shot. Someday this could happen to you and you are going to wonder these same things, especially after making what I thought was a good shot.
Wonder how the deer feels about all this.    Is this a feeble attempt at humor? Didn't know deer had feelings.It sounds to me, that like most people you just want to blame a bad shot on something else. JMOYou know what they say about opinions don't you? Sorry, but I can't see where you have added anything beneficial to this discussion, only disparaging remarks. So go ahead and blaze away again.

regards,

[petemi]

You could have taken a bite out of a sandwhich waiting for that 45 cal bullet hit the deer after you pulled he trigger

If I was real hungry, I could probably eat half of it

Pete

[cwlongshot]

I have also used the 30-30 on game and much prefer the 170 bullet weight. Hornady is my first choice. For a load I choose win 748 powder and a cci200 primer. My load is safe in my guns but surpasses the book maximums so I do not post it here. BUT if you have early seventies manuals my load is there and listed as safe.
CW

[carbineman]

I have also used the 30-30 on game and much prefer the 170 bullet weight. Hornady is my first choice. For a load I choose win 748 powder and a cci200 primer. My load is safe in my guns but surpasses the book maximums so I do not post it here. BUT if you have early seventies manuals my load is there and listed as safe.
CW

CW, Thanks for the info I appreciate it. I have not used FN or RN bullets accept some store bought Remchester way back before I started reloading. I too load my pointed hunting bullet 30-30 rounds with W748. I also have a quite a bit of WC846 (uses BL-C2 data) so I'll maybe try that also.

[petemi]

I too prefer the 170s.  All the years I never reloaded, I liked Win Silvertips.  I'm loading 165 gr. Boat tail ballistic tips at present....we'll see.

Pete

[gcrank1]

Many years ago I read a compelling article with quite a bit of data indicating the 150gr. 30-30 bullet would do all the 170 would (except perhaps on moose or elk where you may need more weight for penetration) and had a better track record of bringing home the venison. Ive also studied out some of the charts and see no real advantage of pointy and/or boattail bullets if the range is under 150yd. I admit that my personal experience is limited on that regard, but I did buy a box of 150 'somethings' and they performed perfectly in the Win '94 for years. Every deer hit was meat and autopsy results were as impressive as any other killing bullet Ive used.
I suggest a quality 150gr. 30-30 bullet loaded to top (if safe in your gun) data loads.

[carbineman]

Many years ago I read a compelling article with quite a bit of data indicating the 150gr. 30-30 bullet would do all the 170 would (except perhaps on moose or elk where you may need more weight for penetration) and had a better track record of bringing home the venison. Ive also studied out some of the charts and see no real advantage of pointy and/or boattail bullets if the range is under 150yd. I admit that my personal experience is limited on that regard, but I did buy a box of 150 'somethings' and they performed perfectly in the Win '94 for years. Every deer hit has meat and autopsy results were as impressive as any other killing bullet Ive used.
I suggest a quality 150gr. 30-30 bullet loaded to top (if safe in your gun) data loads.

Thanks for the info on the 150 grain. Maybe I'll have to try both.

[Spanky]

I shoot 150's and 170's in my Handi and Marlin 30-30's. I don't see any difference in accuracy and they both kill the hell out of a deer.



Spanky

[spruce]

I've heard the 150 vs 170 gr discussion many times before and I don't really think there's 2 cents worth of difference as far as which one kills deer the best.  I've always used 170's (mostly silvertips), but if all I had were 150's I would go forth without hesitation and be confident they would do the job just fine.

I've never tried any loads with pointy bullets in the .30/30, mainly because all (that I know of) are designed to perform best at .308/.30-06 velocities and the gain in trajectory is really not enough to persuade me to try them.

To me the .30/30 is at it's best inside of 150 yards, and within that range the 150 or 170 blunt nosed bullets work very well.  I know it's killed many deer at longer ranges than that, but I think there are other calibers better suited for that purpose.

Sorry you lost your deer, I know from experience how it feels.  Best thing you can do is what you're doing - try to learn from it and prevent it from happening again.

[quickdtoo]

Carbineman,

Sorry you lost the deer, sometimes stuff just happens. You said you're using 130gr Barnes X-bullets, is that an XBT or a TSX BT? The XBT was notorious for penciling thru and not reliably expanding at normal rifle velocities, in the 30-30 I would surely think that is inevitable unless good bone is encountered. The TSX BT is another bullet entirely tho and has a great track record from what I've read.

Not having killed anything with the 30-30 or 30-30AI yet, I'd shoot what ever is most accurate that has a good reputation, for factory ammo, the 150gr Rem Core-lokts shot real good in one of mine, not so good in the M158 barrel, it shot handloaded 125gr Nosler BTs real good tho, Nosler's velocity requirement for reliable expansion of the BT is 1600-3000fps, certainly within the 30-30's capabilities . My 30-30AI shoots the 125gr Sierra SPT Prohunter exceptionally well, it's recommended by Sierra for use in 30-30 Contenders handguns, a friend uses them in his 308Win and has excellent performance on muleys, so it would be great at 30-30 rifle velocities.  

Tim

The Contender is not limited to flat-nosed bullets, but we strongly recommend that the 30-30 bullets be given serious consideration for any hunting applications. Though the Spitzer and Spitzer Boat Tail bullets give better down-range ballistics, they are designed for cartridges producing much higher velocity than the 30-30 WCF. As a result, they are unlikely to produce sufficient expansion for swift and humane kills on game. Two notable exceptions to the rule are the 125 grain Spitzer, and the 135 grain Single Shot Pistol bullets. With their thinner jacket and softer cores, these bullets will expand quite well at Contender velocities. Additionally, the 125 grain Flat Nose Hollow Point, and 150 and 170 grain Flat Nose will perform reliably at the velocities common to both the 30-30 and the Contender pistol.

[Rayzor]

While I dont have a handi 30-30 I have always had good luck with the 170 grain loads from my winchester 94. The remington core loc has dropped several deer into my freezer with many a bang flop. I used a Hornady leverevolution 160 grain this year that stopped my buck at 80 yards with not a step. My brother used my rifle this year for his elk and brought down a 3x4 at seventy five yards. Blasted it threw the shoulder and into the heart lung area. Bullet was recovered on opposite side of animal midway down the rib cage just under the hide. It was a 170 nosler partion load he came up with. Not sure of the charge so I cant say. What I can add is that I have taken several big mule bucks and 2 elk with the 30-30. And I have never pitched less then a 150 grainer at them. Sorry you lost your animal as that is a major drag. But the biggest fastest bullet cannot clean up a bad hit. Not knocking your skill as it happens to everyone that hunts sooner or later.

[Spanky]

Not knocking your skill as it happens to everyone that hunts sooner or later.

+1   Been there, done that. We all make mistakes sometimes.
I've made 2 bum shots on deer over the years... both times it was with a 30 caliber. It's a hard pill to swallow knowing that an animal suffers because of a mistake. If we learn from mistakes it makes us better hunters.
I've learned to take my time and wait until the perfect shot presents itself... if it don't I won't shoot. Period.



Spanky

[carbineman]

quick, I have 300 of the Sierra 135 grain single shot pistol bullet and 800 of the Hornady 130 grain single shot pistol bullets (both are now discontinued from what I can tell) I use these for practise rounds, but may give them a try on game animals next year.

The Barnes I have are the older XBT's and I have had good results so far. But a shot thru the boilermaker area with any bullet will put an end to things in 50 yards or so.

I can remember years ago our home area went to slug gun hunting only and those Foster slugs were devastating on deer. Maybe a softer jacketed lead core bullet would be worth a try. I might have the bullets worth trying already.

[gomerdog]

As a thought, I have always wondered about 180 grain Nosler ballistic tips in a Handi. I have tried them on paper, and they have been as accurate as any bullet I have shot in my Handi. At 30/30 velocities, they may open up perfectly and the added weight may result in adequate penetration. I don't know, just a thought.

Sorry about the lost deer.

Jeff

[44 Man]

I went with Quick's advice and loaded up a bunch of 125 Sierra's.  My old topper love's them and she dropped a nice doe a couple years ago, the last chance I had to hunt.  That's likely the only bullet I will use in the Topper, given the good results over a load of H4895.  As someone else said, never seen much difference between the 150's and 170's in a 30-30 anyway.  44 Man

[moorepower]

I read a bullet test years ago as probably alot of folks have, and I think they put the target 5' or so behind a "twig" and almost nothing hit the target, not even the .45-70 or 06. I think there was only 1 or 2 rounds that were not totally thrown off the target and it was most likely luck with them. After reading that, I don't shoot through grass or twigs.

[44 Man]

I remember that article!  They used 1/4" dowels to shoot through.  Everything was affected and thrown off course.  Lesson; don't shoot through twigs or brush unless you can pick a hole with your scope.  44 Man

[Shu]

The test was to find the ultimate brush buster caliber. A round ball was the king of brush busters. Conical bullets don't bust brush. They deflect. Round balls continued through the test medium and struck the target, Ross Syfried did the test for Guns and Ammo magazine. However th O. P was asking about bullets...

Most 30 caliber bullets are made for the new superdupermach36 30 calibers and just don't work well in the great 30-30. The 30-30 has a much lower velocity. There are some great bullets out there for it. I don't see much real life difference between the 150 and 170 grain bullets. Paper statistics tell a different story. Any way, any bullet from 125 to 200 grains designed for the 30-30 should work well. I like cast bullets better than jacketed.
Lost deer happen. Any hunter knows it can happen and it is unfortunate when it does.
I would bet more North American game animals are killed by the 30-30 than any other caliber.

Sorry about your deer and thankyou for reminding us it happens.